Talk:United States and state terrorism

Past debates and mediation on this article 2006 straw poll on entire article Past mediation attempts About this article's title

accusations

Isn't it great that when talking about the U.S., it's always accusations, and sources ALWAYS need to be cited, but when accusing other countries, ie Iran, Korea, Iraq, Pakistan, Cuba, Afganistan, it's never an accusation, it's just a done deal with no sources whatsoever. Nice to know we got such an unbiased media.

Also, it's not just leaders of Venezuela, and Nicragua who are accusing America, there are many members of the American intellectual community, former soldiers, random people from throughout the world, including citizens of American ally countries, ie Canada, Saudi Arabia, Britain, Australia, Japan, etc. The list goes on. The only people who refuse to see what America is doing are the right wing extremists. They are also not accusations, but just acknowledging facts, rather than trying to bury them or brush them aside. Accusations are- China is a threat, Venezuela is a threat, Korea is a threat, Afganistan is a threat, Iran is a threat, Iraq has WMD. Those are accusations. Facts are- CIA goes into countries to cause disruption, America sponsors dictators, America supported Bin Laden, America put Sadam in power, America supported Pinochet, America supported Suharto, America supports Israeli attacks on Palestine, America uses white phosphorous on civilians.

9/11

How about adding 9/11 to this topic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.28.104 (talk) 00:08, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Jup, it's long overdue, as finally a mainstream political science journal is treating 9/11 as a possible act of (US) state terrorism, framing "9/11 truth" no longer as conspiracy theories, but as State Crimes Against Democracy (SCAD) -> http://abs.sagepub.com/content/vol53/issue6/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.56.162.131 (talk) 13:09, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Does self attacking count as terrorism? 66.183.58.186 (talk) 01:30, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

of course it is, if the executive branch of governments executes parts of its own population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.56.162.131 (talk) 20:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh Jesus! Conspiraloons. Stick to the real world please! There is zero evidenec of 9/11 being a "false flag!". Yeah, I know I am either "sheeple" or "Mossad!" ZZZ! Get a life! 92.11.174.68 (talk) 08:39, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

@92.11.174.68 - this isn't a foxnews forum posting, this is wikipedia. if there are reliable sources 9/11 should be included. truthers.org have many examples of questionable material they've uncovered directly attributable to major global news services. they should atleast be compiled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.172.13.218 (talk) 19:22, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

To be helpful to this article, please do not post general statements along the lines of: add 9/11 stuff because allegations are out there. If you wish to make a proposal for a contribution with a RS to back it up fully, do so.--NYCJosh (talk) 05:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Why not add 9/11 trutherism and maybe some reptilian shape shifters for the NWO? This article couldn't be more of a disgrace then it already is. V7-sport (talk) 01:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Possible reliable sources

• Gareau, Frederick H. (2004). State Terrorism and the United States ISBN 1-84277-535-9.[1] The Four Deuces (talk)
• review of Gareau's book in Social Justice.[2] The Four Deuces (talk)

Just wanted to say...

The article is looking very good, these days. The obstructionists and deletionists who used to run roughshod over all the content, here, appear to have finally been brought to heel. Kudos to all involved, and especially on the more reasonable and academic quality of debate that is currently prevalent on the talk page. Great job, NYCJosh, et al! 114.45.224.186 (talk) 13:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Who is that anonymous contributor?--NYCJosh (talk) 05:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Good work guys. This is one of the best articles I've read in Wikipedia in a long time. I learned a lot. I found it when I was looking for information about the Atomic Bombings of Japan as an act of State Terrorism from a discussion of that topic in my graduate class today, on the anniversary of that horrible act. Wikipedia did not fail to disappoint in providing me with the relevant discussion of the very important topic from this angle, which is not discussed in our mainstream media (but what do you expect from US media?). Anway, Bravo, Wikipedia! I think I will have to join and help the project, now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.68.203 (talk) 23:47, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. One of the best article in Wikipedia. Or, at least one of my favorites. Why is it class C? This should be a featured article. Its so well referenced, full of quality academic sources, and does a fine job at illuminating this very important topic of social discourse within political science and international relations. I suspect that the reason its not a featured article yet has more to do with the politics than anything else.72.164.170.56 (talk) 04:15, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems the tags should be removed. Including unexplained Sept neutrality tag. Length wise, some sections probably could get their own articles, or be briefly cut, just to make room for atrocities to come ;-( CarolMooreDC (talk) 13:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Tags

As has been pointed out repeatedly, many editors have problems with the neutrality, tone, and sourcing of this article. For these reasons, I maintain that the flags should stay. Soxwon (talk) 19:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The article should restrict itself to scholarly sources discussing the connection between the U.S. and state terrorism. A lot of the sources are news articles, op-eds and books published outside the academic mainstream. Also, a detailed description of incidents that have been desribed as state terrorism is POV, unless there is a consensus that these events are state terrorism. If the article were "Covert actions by the CIA" then it would be different. TFD (talk) 19:29, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Many of the references here fail WP:RS and the article title is even prejudicial. "United States and state terrorism " implies that the connection has undisputedly been made. V7-sport (talk) 02:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The tags are bullshit. The article refers to news sources when it seeks to verify the facts of what happened, as reported by the Western press. Where interpretation of these facts occurs, scholarly articles are *always* referenced, and the references provided come from the most respected analysts in this field. All of these objections to the article are entirely without merit: virtually all are either the invention of anti-Castro Cuban ideologues, or of fiercely partisan Israelis who believe that apartheid is OK, or of foolish white people from the US who have a shaky grasp of reality, at best, and at worst, are the sorts of white trash who indulge violent fantasies of the rape and torture of *very* broadly defined "terrorists" or perhaps, in the worst instances, "illegal immigrants".

Remove the tags. The only people keeping these tags in place are nutjob extremists who want to immolate the planet in a great fireball of white-purity. Otherwise, all sane people recognize that this page is strictly factual. 118.160.161.56 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:38, 13 November 2010 (UTC).

Well, at least you're not biased or anything. --Dekker451 (talk) 16:17, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

TerrorISM

The correct nouns are 'terrorism' or for the person practising it 'terrorist', the adjectives 'terrorist' or 'terroristic'... The article may look a bit more credible if you use the correct nomenclature.

'Terror' is what the victims experience. 92.11.174.68 (talk) 08:44, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

And what the f*!k is this supposed to be addressing?

Your criticisms of the article might look a bit more credible if you bothered to refer to what you're trying to correct.

Beyond that, you just sound like a dips*!t knowitall. 118.160.161.56 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:25, 13 November 2010 (UTC).

This page should be eliminated

The U.S has not committed terrorism by any reasonable standard. Just because a terrorist group or a terrorist regime like Iran says the U.S does it is not sufficent.Nbaka is a joke (talk) 21:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, let's start another deletion discussion. The tenth, actually. It's fun. Also, there are examples like the Hiroshima and Nagasaki's nuclear bombings that have no relation at all with Iran --83.40.156.35 (talk) 13:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

And no relation at all to terrorism. So why did you bring it up? --Dekker451 (talk) 16:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

It does not matter whether or not the U.S. has supported state terrorism but whether there are reliable sources documenting that the accusation has been made. The challenge is to write the article in a neutral way. TFD (talk) 14:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone else here feel that the name "Nbaka" (I.E: "Nabqa") "is a Joke" is inherently POV, non-neutral, and clearly pushing a non-neutral perspective? Also, whatever happened to that attempt to get the bullshit labels removed from the top of this page? Isn't it high time Wikipedia acknowledged the level of scholarship and dedication to the neutral presentation of facts that this article represents?

This page makes it pretty clear that Wikipedia is in no way interested in being an "encyclopedia"; the organization here feels the need to always and shamelessly indulge the most spiteful, contrarian, and reactionary anti-academic sentiments over those which are rooted in fact and a dedication to truth. 118.160.161.56 (talk)

"Dedication to truth"...Typical propagandist language. Why do you hate America so much? And no, responding to the question with more lies would not really be an answer. --Dekker451 (talk) 16:21, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Dekker apparently believes that truth is equivalent to propaganda. Propaganda is defined as lies and prevarications in the service of political ends. Dekker, therefore, is a propagandist. 118.168.236.5 (talk) 14:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

First: Unless the 192 nations in the world have a page to state sponsored terrorism to put one fro a leading progressive nation shows a POV bias.

Second defending Nbaka is a joke tag, The Nbaka is a joke to most of the people who are not racist against Jews.Basil rock (talk) 14:00, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

The nabqa is a historical act of ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is only a joke to criminals and other conscienceless scum. 118.168.236.5 (talk) 14:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

It's reasonable to say that wikipedia shouldn't have a page on USA state terrorism and USA state terrorism only, that would imply that there's something inherently wrong and immoral about the country itself and would definitely display a bias...but 192 countries? Should San Marino need to have a page on its' relationship to state terrorism before one can be legitimately created and elaborated upon for the United States? Or Bulgaria, Switzerland, Nepal or dozens upon dozens of other countries against whom no even remotely serious accusations could be made? Many events in US history can be interpreted as something not entirely unrelated to state terrorism...and claiming that everyone who comes to that conclusion is racist, anti-democratic and anti-progressive...that's not a claim Wikipedia should take seriously, I think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.168.138 (talk) 00:59, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Although here is no reason why other countries that have engaged in state-backed terrorism should not have their own articles, the majority of states, including San Marino, have not engaged in this form of terrorism. TFD (talk) 03:23, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

But we should take seriously claims that something "can be interpreted as something not entirely unrelated"? How can that meet the verifiability test? It's way too vague and subjective. --Dekker451 (talk) 13:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

If there is literature about a subject then we can have any article about it. The challenge is to write it in a neutral way, explaining how the topic is normally seen and not write it from the point of view of its proponents. TFD (talk) 15:56, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree that this article should be deleted. It is the quintessence of bias. It categorically fails NPOV, it is riddled with Synthesis half the sources fail reliable source guidelines. V7-sport (talk) 01:47, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

=============

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/155082.html

"Iran's interior minister has accused the intelligence agencies of Israel, the United States, and Britain of involvement in the recent terrorist attacks on two Iranian nuclear scientists." 118.168.236.5 (talk) 14:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Contacting editors who participated in previous Articles for Deletion

Please contact me if this article is put up for deletion, preferably via email as I don't edit wikipedia much.

Canvassing rules allow an editor to contact editors who were in a previous deletion discussion about a new deletion discussion as long as as he contacts every person in that particular deletion discussion:

Wikipedia:Canvassing#Votestacking Posting an appropriate notice on users' talk pages in order to inform editors on all "sides" of a debate (e.g., everyone who participated in a previous deletion debate on a given subject) may be appropriate under certain circumstances on a case-by-case basis.

So since there are nine previous articles for deletion, there are ten groups of people any editor can contact about the deletion discussion, as long as he contacts every person in that one deletion discussion with a neutral message. The message on these editor's talk pages must be neutral.

Wikipedia:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification Notices should ideally be polite, neutrally worded, clear in presentation, and brief - the user can always find out more by clicking on the link to the discussion.

Example

So for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States and state terrorism (9th nomination), an editor needs to contact all 11 people who participated, [3]. It is not required to contact User:Shimeru the admin who closed the deletion discussion.[4]

A good neutral message would be:

==United States and state terrorism is up for deletion== United States and state terrorism is currently up for deletion, your comments about this deletion are welcome here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States and state terrorism (10th nomination) ~~~~

Seeing all the editors who participated in previous AFD's

[5] is found by clicking the history tab of the Article for Deletion discussion. Then clicking the link "Revision history statistics".

Rumpsenate2 (talk) 22:07, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

RE WikiLeaks reference.

This reference was deliberately edited to give it a different meaning other then what was in the memo. What appeared on Wikipedia was ""Contrary to common belief, the American export of terrorism or terrorists is not a recent phenomenon, nor has it been associated only with Islamic radicals or people of Middle Eastern, African or South Asian ethnic origin.". Obviously intended to imply that the CIA acknowledged that the USA was importing terrorism. The original quote began with ""Much attention has been paid recently to the increasing occurrence of American-grown Islamic terrorists conducting attacks against U.S. targets, primarily in the homeland," the memo says. "Less attention has been paid to homegrown terrorism, not exclusively Muslim terrorists, exported overseas to target non-U.S. persons.". The memo was speculating about the consequences of an American resident or citizen Jihadist began mounting terrorist attacks abroad. NOT acknowledging the existence of a CIA program for terrorism as was the impression given by the selective edit.latimes.comV7-sport (talk) 03:26, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I can't speak to the motives of the person that added it (they might have simply misunderstood it -- see WP:AGF). However, you are absolutely correct that this was a total misrepresentation of the source. I have completely removed that from the article, as it has nothing to do with state terrorism. Thanks for pointing that out. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 22:37, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

POV tag.

The article conflates “acts of war” by the USA and “war crimes” by individuals into state sponsored terrorism. Indeed the article keeps the definition of terrorism deliberately ambiguous stating that there is no agreed upon definition of terrorism, thereby allowing pretty much any allegation against the USA to included. IE , the atomic bombings of Japan were an act of war, committed in a declared war against military targetsV7-sport (talk) 23:21, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Our personal opinions on whether or not certain actions were "acts of war" or "terrorist acts" is irrelevant. We've got reliable sources that are stating that these actions are state-sponsored terrorism, and our job as Wikipedia editors is to reliably report what reliable sources have to say about it. The article itself is not keeping "the definition of terrorism deliberately ambiguous stating that there is no agreed upon definition of terrorism". There simply is no agreed upon definition of terrorism. All of the definitions that the U.S. government uses, for instance, implicate the US as a terrorist state. So these definitions can't be applied and people try to jump through all kinds of hoops to come up with complex definitions that include all of the United States' enemies, and none of the actions of the US government (e.g. supporting Contra terrorists, blowing up airplanes, bombing Cuban hotels, Shock & Awe, etc.). The result of all of this is thousands of inconsistent definitions of terrorism. So the best we can do is see what reliable sources are saying about state terrorist activities of the United States, and not try to come up with our own definition of terrorism here (that's not our job). - Jrtayloriv (talk) 22:42, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

"We've got reliable sources that are stating that these actions are state-sponsored terrorism," For instance? When José Ramos-Horta blames the USA because indonesian troops shot at people with American made rifles isn't that pushing the POV that the USA was responsible for indonesians actions? Isn't that also synthesis? Since we have sold rifles to other countries are we also responsible for what their armed forces do with them?

If there is no agreed definition of terrorism how can the allegations be substantiated or refuted? If anything can be terrorism doesn't that open this article up to be just a series of allegations against theUSA by various entities that it has opposed? For instance, we have the following:

Fars News Agency, an Iranian state run news agency, alleged that the United States government is involved in the terrorist acts of the Peoples Resistant Movement of Iran (PRMI). The Voice of America, the official broadcasting service of the United States government, interviewed Jundullah leader Abdul Malik Rigi in April 2007, and the Iranian government claims that the fact that he was interviewed was proof of US terrorism.

The article is written in a way whereby anything, including interviewing someone for a radio program could be considered an act of terrorism.V7-sport (talk) 01:52, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Dropping by again, it seems there's a big more heat than light being shed here. Obviously the article should use charges of "state-sponsored terrorism" by the most reliable academic/media/authority sources; but that does not mean they should be ignored if it is a significant act described by less prestigious source of the same ilk, and especially if high quality WP:RS already have supported the view. Re: examples like selling rifles to Indonesia, obviously it's helpful to provide other information about US policies that might have encouraged such use of rifles. The Iranian example is one where more solid sources make the same accusations, like former PRMI members, Seymour Hersh and (possibly?) some cables from Wikileaks? (That's off top of my head.) Sometimes people get lazy and use a convenient source when a little more research would come up with a much more solid source. That's why it's good to challenge them. CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello CarolMooreDC, Isn't it synthesis to, for instance cite US arms sales to Indonesia (when we sell arms to many countries all over the world) as an endorsement of things like "forced sterilization", etc and how would conducting a radio interview be proof of American state sponsored terrorism? V7-sport (talk) 02:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

The point is whether or not CarolMooreDC thinks that millions of dollars in arms sales to a terrorist regime, or state-funded PR work for terrorists, constitute state terrorism. The important point is whether or not reliable sources say that these things constitute terrorist activities. I haven't looked into the Iranian issue, but as far as Indonesia, there are several sources that explicitly state that US support of the mass murder in Indonesia constituted state terrorism. As far as the Iranian issue though, if it was just some offhand remark from a government official in Iran, I don't think it is notable enough to warrant inclusion here. But I don't know enough about the situation (i.e. was it more than just "a radio interview" -- i.e. are they doing Free Radio Europe type propaganda work supporting terrorist movements in Iran?) to say anything about it one way or the other. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 03:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the first three sentences of the above paragraph by Jrtaylor. --NYCJosh (talk) 04:16, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Well no, that wasn't the important point in this particular instance. The question was whether or not juxtaposing that the US government sold arms to a particular regime and that particular regimes history of mistreatment of a particular group to call it "support" constitutes synthesis and original research. The USA sells arms to a lot of people as I am sure you are painfully aware. ..."Free Radio Europe type propaganda work supporting terrorist movements in Iran"... Just for my edification, why did you remove the Igor Primoratz definition of terrorism? V7-sport (talk) 04:21, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Having now read the section in question, first, it would help if the WP:RS were more fully identified in the footnote. Second, further research through a books.google search like United States support Indonesia East Timor could bring out more specific info. Just from memory, it seems that at the time there were complaints reported in various WP:RS that the US was knowingly breaking its own laws against supplying arms to nations that abuse human rights - even as it continues to do worldwide today, when it is convenient. So, again, the solution seems to be more research and fixing up article, less talk page banter, even if latter is easier :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 11:02, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

", less talk page banter, even if latter is easier :-) " - Not to mention productive and persuasive. V7-sport (talk) 18:12, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Synthesis

The following sections contain no claim, or sources for a claim, that the action is considered state terrorism by a noteworthy academic or expert: Indonesia's anti-Communist purges (1965–66) ; Operation Speedy Express (1968–1969) ; Cuba (1959–present) ; Operation Mongoose ; Allegations of harboring terrorists ; Iran (1979–present) ; Jundullah ; People's Mujahedin of Iran ; Iraq (1992–95) ; Lebanon (1985). This is significant as it means these sections are Synthesis. A list of abhorrent actions is synthetic; please find reliable sources of note making the claim that these particular actions constitute state terrorism. In addition, works generally covering the thesis of state terrorism by the United States ought to be used as the core structuring tool for the article, not the accumulation of incidents. (My interest here is mainly from having watched similar synthesis lists of bad things, and the poor quality of resulting articles.) Fifelfoo (talk) 03:05, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

As far as Cuba, I'm not sure how you can say that the sources cited don't mention state terrorist activity, since almost every paragraph has quotes containing allegations of state terrorism against the United States, or discussing terrorist activities they supported. As far as the other ones, they are all citing reliable sources talking about terrorist groups funded/supported by the United States government, so those clearly belong too. However, as I said above, I think that many of the sections need to be shortened, and a lot of the content moved to other articles and just summarized here. There are simply too many terrorist actions supported/committed by the U.S. to describe them all in detail here -- we need to move some of the detailed description to articles for the individual events. And some of the sections, like those for Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon, need more information and could use better sources. I know that there are plenty of sources that discuss U.S. terrorism in Iraq (especially during the Clinton era), but I really don't know enough about Lebanon or Iran to make a recommendation about what to do on those. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 03:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

The synthesis emerges as such, "Johnson defines State Terrorism as X, and gives examples of A, B, C", wikipedian introduces original material regarding A, B or C not connected with someone's definition of state terrorism. In relation to Cuba, I missed the sentence, "Piero Gleijeses, Jorge I. Dominguez, and Richard Kearney..." because I used a tight search "state terror" rather than a loose search "terror" to locate sections lacking academic opinions linking topics back to the article. I agree with you about better sourcing, but, the core issue is to make sure the sources actually hold a position that the events constitute state terrorism, or, in the opinion of that commenter, a position which is so fundamentally similar to the state terrorism thesis that it is identical. (Here I ought to point out that I put months into Mass Killings under Communist Regimes / Communist Genocide; so I am very strongly against Synthetic lists on that basis). Fifelfoo (talk) 03:50, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't follow you, Fifelfoo. If notable source X gives events A, B and C as examples of terrorism, then any additional information regarding event A added later than is fair game since event A has been called an instance of terrorism.

We don't need to reach agreement on a definition of terrorism or state terrorism. Nor do we need an academic to label something or someone that. If an RS uses the term regarding an event or organization that is sufficient. The sections you mention in your list each have footnotes that support the use of the term terrorism. How persuasive a source is should be left to be decided by the reader, once a prima facie case of terrorism has been provided by a RS.--NYCJosh (talk) 04:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

• No, this is precisely the Synthesis problem in the article. Kevin Bacon claims that New York is a city of note, and so New York goes into the "Cities of Note" article. John Jameson claims that inside New York there are ice cream vendors, and so ice cream vendors goes into the Cities of Note article. Now if John Jameson had claimed that because New York has ice cream vendors, it is a City of Note, then it wouldn't be synth. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:45, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

"We don't need to reach agreement on a definition of terrorism or state terrorism."- So how does one prove or refute it if it could be essentially anything? V7-sport (talk) 04:24, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

We prove it, for example, by citing a source that action A is terrorism. We refute by citing a source that action A is not terrorism, merely, say a snowball fight. In that instance we would have to provide both sources.

Having said that, it would be great to provide some common definitions of terrorism, for example, as the term is used in US law.--NYCJosh (talk) 22:12, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

• No, this is Synthesis again. State Terrorism is a description used in academic material, and a few major polemics which are influential due to who claimed them. We use the definitions claimed by authors. This is why we use reliable sources only: we aren't competent to explore definition of terrorism. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:45, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

"internal operations"

I deleted the 2nd half of the 3rd sentence, which read "along with its historic internal operations against Native Americans, Black Americans, Puerto Ricans, and other U.S. citizens of color." Besides being poorly worded, it doesn't cite any sources to support conflating ethnic discrimination with terrorism. The body of the article doesn't say anything about this either. Scaleshombre (talk) 04:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Well done. V7-sport (talk) 05:01, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

misleading lede

With a topic as highly charged as this one, should we really be using weasel words like "many" in the lede? It gives the impression, unintentionally or not, of widespread consensus that the US is a terrorist nation. I've reworded the lede to read "Various groups and individuals have accused the United States government of state terrorism. Among those who've made this argument are..."

I also think it's essential to refer to the most prominent advocates of this view from the get-go. Limiting the description to "historians, political theorists, government officials, and others" is vague and misleading, suggesting a mainstream legitimacy for the "US as terrorist" argument that just doesn't exist. The main thrust comes from ideological adversaries (e.g., Castro's house-organ Granma) and career critics of the US (Chomsky, Mayer, Falk, etc.) who take it as axiomatic that the US is the main perpetrator of evil in the world.

We do a disservice to the reader by glossing over this fact. Hence my revision as follows: "Among those who've made this argument are historians, political theorists, government officials, propagandists for nations that have adversarial relationships with the United States, and Marxist ideologues." Scaleshombre (talk) 19:55, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Please refrain from characterizing thinkers such as Falk and others as "marxists." First, you have offered no sources showing that each of these is true. Second it is not true. Third, it is highly contentious and gets the reader off on the wrong foot: thinking about scholar's world views instead of the subject of the article (US, terrorism etc.). It's like having an article about some political topic, say the Iranian nuclear program, and trying to label every source on the subject a "liberal" a "marxist," a "capitalist," etc.--NYCJosh (talk) 22:08, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

You're right. It's not accurate to broadbrush Falk, Chomsky and Mayer as marxists. How about we change it to "Among those who've made this argument are historians, political theorists, government officials, propagandists for nations that have adversarial relationships with the United States, and commentators who have frequently expressed interest in dismantling the United States' socioeconomic system"? Scaleshombre (talk) 22:45, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Scaleshombre didn't call ALL the polemicists cited "Marxists", there are however a few. They don't, however have the weight of an elected government when it comes to determining what is and what isn't terrorism. If they aren't relevant to the discussion any political and economic framework that they have aligned themselves with is irrelevant as well. V7-sport (talk) 23:07, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Terrorism defined

I have added the definition of "terrorism" as it has been codified into US law. I'll Repeat the relevant section here:

§ 2656f. Annual country reports on terrorism;

• (1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;

• (2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;

• (3) the term “terrorist group” means any group practicing, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
• (4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
• (5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—
• (A) that is used by a terrorist or terrorist organization—
• (i) to carry out terrorist activities, including training, fundraising, financing, and recruitment; or (ii) as a transit point; and
• (B) the government of which expressly consents to, or with knowledge, allows, tolerates, or disregards such use of its territory and is not subject to a determination under—

(i) section 2405(j)(1)(A) of the Appendix to title 50; (ii) section 2371 (a) of this title; or(iii) section 2780 (d) of this title.

Since "There is no international consensus on what terrorism, or state terrorism is" this is the only definition that has the weight of law and the weight to be pertinent here. V7-sport (talk) 22:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely incorrect. We don't need to define terrorism here, first of all. We can leave that to the editors at terrorism, and we will summarize what they say there. It does not logically follow from the statement "There is no international consensus on what terrorism, or state terrorism is" that we should therefore just accept (one of) the United States government's definitions. The United States government is not any more special than academic or other sources, especially when there is a blatant conflict of interest as is the case with the topic of this article. That's like allowing Bill Clinton to define what sex is and using his definition to determine if he had extramarital sex. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 00:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

• Except for OR and Synth policy. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:52, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Conforming article to the definition of terrorism.

I boldly removed a bit of information from the article because it did not conform to the definition of "terrorism" as outlined by US law.

• "premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents"

If there is something I missed that isn't POV that and conforms to this definition I apologize. I will add that the administrator who oversaw the previous deletion discussion stated "I'd be quite tempted to go with "delete and start over", So herein is an opportunity.... V7-sport (talk) 22:42, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

There is no "the definition" of terrorism. There are an enormous number of definitions, and we don't take the United States government's as the "real" one. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 00:01, 28 December 2010 (UTC)