User talk:ParkSehJik

Edit-warring

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware, Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; that is to say, editors are not automatically "entitled" to three reverts.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. TFD (talk) 03:44, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? ParkSehJik (talk) 03:57, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

He thinks you are at risk of being blocked for reverting content in articles. It's a very easy to get blocked if one is unaware that reverting the same or similar content is inappropriate. The rule of thumb is to discuss rather than revert, following WP:DR. --Ronz (talk) 05:04, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Then why did he (re history content) and you (re the word "diagnose") revert my edits without discussing? And if the revert was edit summed as lacking sources, I only restored with sources, and started a talk page section. My question remains, what is he talking about? He may have erred because of all of the talk page rant accusing me of being on an "anti-psychiatry rant" because MEDRS content was critical of some of its practices (as are almost all psychiatrists themselves). I treated the psychiatry articles the same as I treated the alt med article. There I go again being verbose and obscuring my own point. See what your deletion of that section of my talk page did? :) ParkSehJik (talk) 05:10, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I try to stick to WP:1RR myself. It's a very good rule-of-thumb. --Ronz (talk) 05:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

You have exceeded 3rr and have been reported to the edit-warring noticeboard and may respond here. TFD (talk) 08:18, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I have not violated 3RR. I cannot post a response there because I was blocked in less than an hour from the 3RR post, without being given an opportunity to respond. ParkSehJik (talk) 18:23, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

December 2012

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 24 hours for your disruption caused by edit warring and violation of the three-revert rule at Psychiatry. During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}} below this notice, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 09:05, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

ParkSehJik (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

*There is no 3RR violation. *There may not even be a 2RR or 1RR violation. *There is no edit warring by anyone on any side. The diffs and context have not been correctly read. There may possibly not even even be a 2RR or 1RR violation. :- When User:The Four Deuces (TFD) posted a 3RR warning on my talk page, I asked what he was talking about[1]. :- TFD did not respond to my question in any way. :- Instead of responding as to what he meant, when I undid an unrelated massive deletion, made in error by an unrelated editor, TFD jumped on his 3RR warning and alleged a 3RR violation. The allegations of 3RR violation are incorrect as follows. :* Two (not "more than three") of the diffs of alleged 3RR violating reverts involve edits adding new content, but additionally adding the term “diagnosis”. Unanimous consensus was reached that “diagnosis” should be added. In fact, Ronz, the editor I supposedly “reverted” from in the “1st revert” allegation, was the same editor who diligently located sources to support my edit adding this term[2], and said the sources he located supported also adding the term "Prevention", which I did, and I responded “done” at the talk page.[3] ::So I assume the 3RR violation allegation refers to only to other parts of my edit, and I will not further comment on edits as to adding “diagnosis”as being the basis of the allegation of 3RR violation. :* 1st “revert”: [4] 21:47, 30 November 2012 ::This edit is not a "revert" of anything. ::* This edit did not delete any content previously added by other editors. ::* This edit did not add any content previously deleted by other editors. ::* This edit responded to a request by another editor to add new sources to the history section, which had no opposition at the talk page. ::* The edit was actually the end of a string of edits, each of which added single sentences with RS sources, one step at a time, and with an edit summary that quoted the sentence added, so that the diffs would be well explained. ::* So this edit is not a "revert" of anything. :* 2nd “revert”: [5] 00:0,2 1 December 2012 ::This edit is not a "revert" of anything, and is not related to the content of non-revert #1 above. ::* The edit actually involves a string of edits, each adding single sentences, and each with edit summary quoting the content added, so that the diffs would be well explained. ::* This string of edits did not delete any content previously added by any editor. ::* This string of edits did not add any content previously removed by any editor. ::* This edit was unrelated to any talk page discussion seeking consensus. ::* This edit added sourced content for the first time as follows - ::::“Unlike English philosopher of science Francis Bacon, Burton assumes that knowledge of the mind, not natural science, is humankind's greatest need.?UNIQ329a551b4b4e5044-nowiki-00000017-QINU?1?UNIQ329a551b4b4e5044-nowiki-00000018-QINU?” ::with edit summary ::::“Unlike English philosopher of science Francis Bacon, Burton assumes that knowledge of the mind, not natural science, is humankind's greatest need.” ::* The difference for this edit is well explained. ::* This edit is in no way a "revert" of anything. :* 3rd “revert”: [6] 02:06, 1 December 2012 ::This edit is not a "revert" of anything, and is not related to the content of non-revert #1 or #2 above. ::* The edit did not delete any material previously added by another editor. ::* This edit did not add any material previously deleted by another editor. ::* This edit did not add any content removed by any other editor. ::* This edit did not add content in any topic under discussion at talk for which consensus was being sought ::* This edit was a string of entirely new step by step new edits that added a construction tag, reorganized content in the lede per MOS, added content with RS sources, and that was not related in any way to any talk page discussion lacking consensus. ::* This edit is in no way a "revert" of anything. : * 4th revert: [7] 02:17, 1 December 2012 ::TFD is being very misleading here. This edit was a revert, but not of Ronz’s edit as TFD makes it appear! It was a revert of TFD’s much earlier edit[8], which utterly lacked an edit summary that made sense, and which violated consensus reached at the relevant talk page section on history calling for additional sources in the history section, to which TFD in no way commented. I added new sources, and new content from the sources. TFD’s edit summary, “Rv unexplained diffs”, made no sense since each of the edits adding content to the history section was addition of a single sentence with RS, and with an edit summary quoting the sentence, to have the best possible explanation in the diffs. I put the RS content back in the article, and I a started a talk page section asking for an explanation from TFD. If TFD had any explanation, I would have undone my own revert. TFD explained that he objected to only one sentence in the man sentences added. He explained “Your addition included a passage about the ancient Greeks sourced to an 1881 satirical book”. I did not add content sourced by an 1881 book, and did not add content sourced by any satire. I asked if there was any basis for me to undo my own revert in such case, especially as to the massive other content he deleted. TFD did not respond. This is not edit warring on my part. :* 5th "revert": [9] 06:23, 1 December 2012 “*This edit undid Harizotoh9’s edit[10] :*Herisotoh9’s edit undid Ronz’s last edit, which was part of consensus reached at talk re “diagnosis”. :*Herisotoh9’s edit had no edit summary. :* Herisotoh9’s edit appeared to be either vandalism or an error. :* With my AGF that Herisotoh9’s edit was an error, not vandalism, I started a talk page section asking if the edit was made in error - Was this edit intentional?”, in which I asked about his unexplained edit – ::::“Was this edit intentional, or a slip of some "save page" button? It had no edit summary, deleted content and sources, undid the reording Ronz just did, and ignored consensus just reached as to the word "diagnosis". I reverted it. If it was intentional, please explain it, and the absense of talk page discussion and edit summary basis." :* There was no response by Herizotoh9 or anyone to my inquiry. :* Herizotoh9's edit appeared to be an error, and I undid it, with edit summary ::::“Undid revision 525819400 by Harizotoh9 (talk) Rv unexplaned edit removing sources and content back to Ronz version; Was that an edit error?” :* This is in no way an edit warring repeat of multiple reverts above (if there even is more than a single revert above), but merely a correction of an erroneous deletion made by an editor, unrelated to the above, and unresponded to at the talk page when I said I assumed it was uintentional, which by WP:silence, and the utter lack of edcit summary, implied that it was. Conclusion - *There is no 3RR violation. *There may not even be a 2RR or 1RR violation. *There is no edit warring by anyone on any side. ParkSehJik (talk) 19:33, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Wow. That took a lot of reading (next time read WP:GAB to understand the importance of brevity). First, you seem to be under a distinct misunderstanding - edit warring and WP:3RR are related, but different. You do not have to break the bright line of 3RR to be edit-warring. You also seem to have skipped over the key points that "An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing other editors—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert." (emphasis mine from WP:EW). In short, your own unblock request actually proves your edit-warring. I suggest you re-read WP:EW, WP:3RR and most importantly WP:DR while this very brief block is in effect (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:41, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

---

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Your first edit (21:47, 30 November 2012) restored "diagnosis" to the lead, which you had originally added 22:57, 29 November 2012,[11] and had been reverted by Ronz.[12] It therefore counts as a revert. Your second edit also restores "diagnosis" and therefore counts as a revert. The third and fifth edits changed the wording of the final paragraph of the lead and therefore count as reverts. The fourth edit, as you admit, was restoring material that I had deleted, which is also a revert.

Ronz explained to you above after I posted the warning template, "It's a very easy to get blocked if one is unaware that reverting the same or similar content is inappropriate. The rule of thumb is to discuss rather than revert, following WP:DR."[13] This is a short block and you should take the time to read through the policy on edit-warring.

TFD (talk) 20:39, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Re "third and fifth edits changed the wording", these two edits rearranging the order of content in the lede, added entirely new content with RS that was not contested in any way, and fixed grammar and merged the existing content with the new content per MOS. It is a contentious abuse of the word "revert" to call this a revert.

Putting "diagnosis" in the article does not count as a revert after there was unanimous consensus gained at talk to put it back in. Counting these as "reverts" in this context is violates common sense in interpretating WP policies, and is unhelpfully contentious. ParkSehJik (talk) 22:01, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

The only "revert" after TFD's 3RR warning was when I undid another editor's error or vandalism, and any claim that this counts as edit warring is not made in good faith.

• Using "reverts" to describe uncontested grammar fixes, or the undoing of errors per talk page discussion, is being contentious. ParkSehJik (talk) 22:01, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I do not see why you assume that Herizotoh9's reversal of your edit was vandalism. He set up a discussion thread at WP:NPOVN#NPOV dispute at Psychiatry and Forensic Psychiatry showing that he disagreed with your edits to the article. Otherwise, putting a single word back into an article counts as a "revert". TFD (talk) 22:46, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

My comment, "With my AGF that Herisotoh9’s edit was an error, not vandalism, I started a talk page section asking if the edit was made in error", is not an "assumption of vandalism". I further respond below. I am spending much of my time on these talk pages. If I could, I would now choose to have my time back for more productive use, if I could, even if my edits were permanently deleted. ParkSehJik (talk) 17:08, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• ParkSehJik, I think you're focusing too closely on the edits, rather than the pattern that WP:EDITWAR is all about. Rapid back-and-forth editing between editors that disagree is an edit war, and should be avoided by each party. Splitting hairs misses the point; just take the time to take stock, reflect on what will help you become a more effective editor, and move on. We've discussed this before. Look back over your edits and see that multiple respondents have described your edits as a "wall of text" or otherwise overwhelming amount of material, rather than succinct comments. You will be able to avoid an edit war if you communicate effectively and also keep in mind that there is no deadline. I'm amazed at how prolific and intelligent you are, but you won't be effective if you're contentious. WP hinges on collaboration (no one says that's easy, though). -- Scray (talk) 23:14, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I understanding that on these talk pages, my fourth "revert" is universally seen as having the spirit of edit warring and evidencing my "contentiousness", as even being a revert at all. I understand that this restoration of RS content, after Herizotoh9 massively deleted it without any edit summary whatsoever, just after TFD posted a 3RR warning then would not respond when I asked what he was referring to, and after I said at the talk page that Herizotoh9's edit appeared to be "accidental" and not vandalism, and that I was restoring it under that assumption, to which Herizotoh9 did not respond, was called by TFD "an assumption of vandalism" on my part. I understand that here on these talk pages, my restoration of "diagnosis" in this 4th edit, after Ronz agreed it should be restored, is still universally called a 3RR violating contentious 4th "revert", evem with Ronz agreeing not only to "revert" his own deletion, but supplying sources to do so. And there is (almost) universal agreement that I should expect to spend similar time on talk pages, and have my RS content deleted, if I am unable to understand that this all evidences my being "contentious", and that I need to understand that my putting the word "diagnosis" in the psychiatry article introduces an "antipsychiatry POV", and evidences my being in an "antipsychiatry POV rant". I fear I will likely never undertand. An outside observer would more likely conclude that there is an entity, perhaps best called a "Wikipedia lawyer", and the specialty attorney has skills that include tag-team (WIki) legal entrapment by people with tens of thousands of edits, who engage in this as a daily activity as sport to exercise the lawyering skills. It is WP:SPADE clear that Herizotoh and TFD's deletions did not have proper edit summary or response at the talk page. It WP:SPADE clear that TFD set up for Herizotoh9 or another editor to WP:SPADE intentionally, not accidentally, make a massive deletion without any explanation in an edit summary, and intentionally did not respond at the talk page. It WP:SPADE clear that that TFD did not intend to imply that a non-esistant "1888 source" was a "parody" to base TFD's deletion of well sourced historical content on Esquirol and the historic first elaboration of depression, was not for the reasons stated in his edit summary, which makes no sense. It is WP:SPADE clear that all of this was not to improve Wikipedia, but to implement this entrapment. WP:SPADE, which I was referred to read, should make the an expression such as "Wikipedia lawyer" commonplace on these talk pages. It is WP:SPADE clear that if an analysis were to be done, the number of new Wikipedia editors who stay would be found to be shrinking, not growing, that the percentage of edits on talk pages would be growing as an overall percent of edits at Wikipedia, as the numbers of these "W-layers" grows, that the ratio of entrenched editors who spend time at this law-like practice is an ever growing number, causing the shrinkage of new editors and shrinking ratio of content based edits to W-law based talk page W-laweyering. My POV is entirely different from any of these baseless accusations of "anti-psychiatry", and grew from study begnninning with mind control drugs used by China in the Korean War (which to date has never ended). No one in the world who knows me would say anythingn other than that my POV is pro-evidenc-based-psychiatry to treat disorders, unlike any of the baseless accusations I will not further spend time responding to. Anyone who knows me would say that I have much specialized knowledge to contribute to Wikipedia on the topics in which I have expertise. But I also have extensive first hand knowledge of lawyers. I WP:SPADE know them when I see them. I know that my time is best spent not engaging with them, and moving away from any forum in which such engagement might suck up my time without producing much at all for use of it. When editors with tens of thousands of edits on talk pages and with no expertise in the field make preposterous edits like deleting "diagnosis" from psychiatry (Ronz) and entirely deleting Jean-Étienne Dominique Esquirol from its history section (TFD), then start talk paged discussion all over various Wikpedia "courts of law" talk pages, accusing a new editor of pushing "antispchiatry-POV" in a "rant", then use W-lawyer-like tactics, not bothering in any way to follow their own W-laws, to shut down the editing of the new editor, thus evidencing W-lawyering, John Foster Dulles' model, not AGF, should apply to anything these entrenched beurocrat/lawyer talk page editors do. I have now spent the better part of a week arguing with experts at this W-lawyering, not experts in the field, that "diagnosis" is part of psychiatry, and that my insertion of the word into the article does not introduce POV, and that this does not evidence an "antipsychiatry POV rant" on my part. I wish to close my account, but when I went to do it, I could not find information as to how to do it. Does anyone know where that information is? ParkSehJik (talk) 17:25, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Vaccination

I just noticed this edit - you seem to have accidentally reverted a large number of unrelated changes. Could you specify which change(s) you intended to make? Arc de Ciel (talk) 09:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Very strange. I did not make that edit. It has my name on it but I did not make it. I did not read any of the article, or even read any of the one footnote you referred me to. I just looked at the style of the single footnote you referred me to. The first bullet point appeared as an asterisk, while the rest were actual bullet points. So I put an extra space in the reference and hit preview, and the asterisk turned into a bullet point like the others, but created an extra space. So I hit save because the extra space seemed preferable to a nonuniform bullet point appearance. I never read any of the content of the article or even the reference I edited by adding a single space. The srangest thing is that the edit in my name looks thought out because the changes preserve grammar, indicating that whoever made the other changes actually thought about them. Who might know what is going on here? ParkSehJik (talk) 15:44, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

What happened was that instead of editing the current version of the article, you accidentally edited an old version from the page history, from 11 September. When you hit Save, all the changes since that old version were reversed. Looie496 (talk) 16:51, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.

@Louie496 - How did you figure that out? - I tried to figure out what happened, but I lack the skill to have done so.

@ Arc de Ciel - no, I did not intend to make the changes except to correct the bullet points so they wuld appear uniform. ParkSehJik (talk) 17:02, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Those organized changes had to come from somewhere, and the most likely place was an earlier version of the article. So I just looked backward in the history until I found one that matched the version you created. Looie496 (talk) 17:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I thought. :-) Fixed. Arc de Ciel (talk) 00:52, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. How can I search an article's history, e.g., looking for an experession I recall being in an old version? ParkSehJik (talk) 19:19, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikiblame

There is a tool called WikiBlame that can be used for that. (I didn't use it here, though -- since you said you only made very small changes, I looked for a recent version that was nearly the same size as the one you produced.) Looie496 (talk) 20:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I put your coment in a bold subsection here to remind myself. ParkSehJik (talk) 22:04, 1 December 2012 (UTC)