User talk:Doors22

Finasteride

As I wrote on my talkpage, doi:10.1111/j.1743-6109.2010.02157.x is a reasonable source to support any claims of persistent sexual dysfunction after finasteride use. I suggested, however, that you wait until it has appeared in print so any reactions in the medical literature can be noted. I would also strongly suggest that you tone down the language of your addition; I can't see any evidence that there is a "controversy" here, for instance. Instead, I would integrate this information into the current "side-effects" section.

Wikipedia has a guideline for additions to medical articles, WP:MEDRS. Could I urge you to read through this document, because if you follow its advice your edits are more likely not to be reverted. JFW | T@lk 19:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

September 2012

You can't expect other people not to edit the article, as you appear to say here. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Biosthmors (talk) 02:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) if you want to try and create an article on the organization itself. Best. Biosthmors (talk) 16:48, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppetry case

Your name has been mentioned in connection with a sockpuppetry case. Please refer to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Brainbug666 for evidence. Please make sure you make yourself familiar with the guide to responding to cases before editing the evidence page. Stalwart111 (talk) 23:35, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talkback

Hello, Doors22. You have new messages at Reaper Eternal's talk page.
Message added 17:46, 7 August 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]

Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:46, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

February 2014

Hello, I'm Puffin. I noticed that you recently removed some content from Finasteride, with this edit, without explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry, the removed content has been restored. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Puffin ^{Let's talk!} 20:10, 22 February 2014 (UTC) [reply]

Finasteride Sept 28

I am having technical problems with the Finasteride Talk page, so am temporarily placing my explanation of my edits here.

Several changes made on September 11 were reverted with the explanation "Please don't remove sections that have been discussed and agreed upon months/years earlier - Discuss further on talk page if you wish)". First I'd say that I don't see anything on the Talk page clearly indicating that the language you have reverted back to is "consensus". The discussion ended on February 24, with me asking you a series of questions that you never responded to.

"In December 2008, the Swedish Medical Products agency concluded a safety investigation of finasteride and advised that finasteride may cause irreversible sexual dysfunction. The Agency's updated safety information lists difficulty in obtaining an erection that persists indefinitely, even after the discontinuation of finasteride, as a possible side effect of the drug"

As my edit summary explains, the quoted insert only says that there have been case reports and causation is unestablished. It is WP:UNDUE to call this a "warning". I've literally come across AERS reports in which people have reported "death of pet" as a side effect of medication. If we included every spontaneous adverse event report as a "warning" for other drugs we'd need several hundred thousand KB just to list them out. This is not meaningful evidence in support of a causative relationship. Furthermore, the link does not work, making this claim unverifiable and subject to immediate removal under WP:VERIFY

"The UK's Medical and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) cites reports of erectile dysfunction that persists once use of finasteride has stoppedIn April 2011 Merck revised the United States' warning in consumer and medical leaflets to include erectile dysfunction that may persist after stopping finasteride."

As noted in my edit summary, the cited document from MHRA appears to say nothing about sexual dysfunction. Being unverifiable, it is subject to immediate deletion per WP:VERIFY. You've restored this material without addressing my explanation for the edit, and in contrast to your comment, there is no consensus on the Talk page for including this material. Even if there were, it would violate WP:CONEXCEPT as the material is unverifiable.

In April 2012, the warning label was further strengthened to include reports of persistent libido disorders, ejaculation disorders, orgasm disorders, and decreased libido. According to FDA, these warnings were added as precaution after reviewing 678 case reports of post-treatment sexual dysfunction received over an 18 year period. The Agency further stated that "despite the fact that clear causal links between finasteride (Propecia and Proscar) and sexual adverse events have NOT been established, the cases suggest a broader range of adverse effects than previously reported in patients taking these drugs."

This is probably an acceptable source as the FDA issued a release around the label changes.

I've deleted the Swedish Medical Agency and MHRA references and left the FDA one in place.

"regulatory authorities have listed mood disorders as among the possible adverse effects of finasteride,"

As I noted in my edit summary, the cited reference does not support the statement "regulatory authorities have listed mood disorders as among the possible adverse effects of finasteride". You reverted my deletion of this material without commenting on the reason for the deletion. "Prior Consensus", which I see no evidence for on the Talk page, is insufficient to overcome the fundamental pillar of Wikipedia that all content must be sourced.

I've deleted the reference to "regulatory authorities" as unverifiable.

"Some studies have shown that the dose of finasteride needed to treat male pattern baldness may be smaller than 1 mg.[44] Petitions to the FDA to re-examine the approved dosage in light of the statistical evidence and possible long-term risks,[45] were met with the response that a study had shown increased effect of a 1 mg dose compared to 0.2 mg without added risks; the same study also concluded that doses of 0.01 mg per day were found to be ineffective in treating hair loss.[45]"

Once again you've reverted me without responding to the reasons in my edit summary and appealing to a "consensus" for which there is no evidence on the Talk page. As I noted in the edit summary, this petition is non-notable. I could write a petition to the FDA tomorrow requesting that they re-examine the dosage for Lipitor. But I am not a well known expert in the field of cardiology, so its really not notable unless the FDA actually acts on it.

The statement that doses needed may be less than 1 mg cites an FDA document, in which I can find no discussion of dosing issues. Like any other statement without verifiable sources, it can and should be deleted. Verifiability is one of the 3 pillars of Wikipedia. I've deleted the paragraph. Formerly 98 (talk) 11:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent edits

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

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Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 02:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ANI

Just to let you know that I proposed a 1 week block for you for retaliatory editing. Formerly 98 (talk) 05:09, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the good laugh. I hope you are able to see the irony in proposing a ban for retaliatory editing (from many months ago) just because I contributed to the incident that was raised about you on the administrator's noticeboard. I wish you the best of luck with that. Doors22 (talk) 05:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have posted a request to the ANI page that you post your evidence supporting charges of COI for evaluation by the community. Thanks. Formerly 98 (talk) 02:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the focus on content

Hello Doors, I made a change to one of your recent edits at a content discussion Noticeboard: I removed a sentence that served no purpose other than to disparage an editor, instead of focusing on content. I understand that you are passionate about the subjects you edit--this can actually be a problem on Wikipedia. Please try to maintain some detachment from the subjects, or consider not editing articles on those subjects. In any case, please stop using content discussion pages to make comments about editors. Thanks.... Zad68 23:27, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Zad68: With all due respect, my comments were not meant to be attacks or disparaging. It is tricky dealing with a user like this who has a history of antagonistic editing and makes repeated intellectually dishonest arguments to meet his goals. I appreciate that passion can be problematic, but I assure you I am doing my best to represent things in the most objective light possible. Do you have any suggestions for how to handle things with Formerly98 who has caused problems with many users over the past couple of months? Thanks. Doors22 (talk) 00:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Same as always. Focus on content on content discussion pages. Refer to reliable sourcing. Back up your arguments with policy and guideline. If you have an issue with an editor's behavior, discuss politely and respectfully on the editor's User Talk. If you still have concerns take it to a noticeboard like COIN, and make your argument without passion and supported by diffs. If problems still continue you can raise the issue at a board line WP:AN, again do it without passion and support it with diffs. HERE IS THE IMPORTANT ONE: If you have exhausted all those avenues and consensus is still against your postion, drop the stick and move on to something else. Happy editing... Zad68 00:17, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Adding: If you really could not see how your comments could come across as attacks or disparaging you really need to think carefully about making comments directed at editors at all. If you don't have the ability to tell when you're crossing the line, don't even approach it. Zad68 00:20, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Jytdog (talk) 03:05, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

yes doors

yes, i was still working on the posting at AN. i am indeed seeking a review of the close. Jytdog (talk) 04:19, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

quick note to you. You consistently say that i am after you. That is not true. if you said "yes i get it, i have to lay off pushing to emphasize sexual side effects in the finasteride article" my case vanishes (especially if you actually followed through on that) My issue is with your behavior in WP, not with you as a person. I am sure you are a fine person. However your editing here is a four year violation of SOAPBOX. Jytdog (talk) 04:40, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jytdog, you do not WP:OWN any wikipedia articles and you certainly cannot tell editors what they can and cannot contribute. My edits are backed up by up to date, MEDRS sources, from evidence based medicine and represent the gold standard of what wikipedia values. The fact you appear to try to suppress valid information is worrisome. Please stop with your harassment (WP:HARASS). I have adjusted my approach and I am no longer willing to fight with you so this "battleground" is quickly becoming one-way harassment. My understanding is the penalties for this are harsh and I have several obvious cases I can easily present on the noticeboard if necessary. This two week long crusade has gone on too long and wasted my time. Doors22 (talk) 05:11, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

see my note above. Jytdog (talk) 05:26, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So you are basically threatening to continue harassing me if I don't submit to your demands and stop editing the article you want me to. Doors22 (talk) 05:43, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

nope, that is not what i am saying. I am saying that you have been abusing Wikipedia for four years to push your agenda, and you seem unable to acknowledge that and unable to acknowledge that this behavior is a violation of WP:SOAPBOX which is both policy and a pillar. that is what i am saying. (I'll ask you - have read WP:SOAPBOX? When you read it, and reflect on your mission statement and your editing history, can you really not see a problem? Jytdog (talk) 06:06, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I have read it and it very clearly states "An article can report objectively about such (scientific) things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view." Again, the current state of the article is very much written from a neutral (if not conservative) POV. Please refrain from posting on my talk page again unless required by wiki policy. You are continuing to harass me unless I agree to admit to something I do not agree with and stop editing an article you do not WP:OWN. This is very clear. Take care. Doors22 (talk) 06:20, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Request for input

We are getting very little response over at the Wikipedia Medicine page. Given the communities lack of interest, should we try a little harder to find an acceptable compromise? Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 23:58, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The thread was confusing. I only just now read everything and now I get what you were saying. Let's see if we get more feedback. Jytdog (talk) 02:03, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

December 2015

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation‎. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Alexbrn (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need a minute to reflect on your own edits. I have proposed different versions here which you have reverted. To say the foundation "says" XYZ is perfectly inline with good practices from WP:NPOV and WP:ASSERT. You should be careful throwing around accusations of whitewashing, especially when they are completely off point. Doors22 (talk) 15:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion

This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident in which you may be involved. Thank you. Jytdog (talk) 07:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Finasteride

Hi Doors, I've closed the COIN. [1] Just to be clear, you have agreed not to engage in direct article editing, but to post edit requests on talk instead, per WP:COI. See Wikipedia:Edit requests for more information. That can't depend on whether any other particular editor is active there. I hope that Jytdog does honour his own suggestion that he will walk away, but if he doesn't, or if someone else arrives that you disagree with, you will still be expected to stick to the talk page.

I suggest that you make the suggestions by writing out exactly what change you want to see; posting your source; quoting from the source where appropriate; and perhaps pinging Doc James (that assumes there won't be many requests; if there are, best not to ping because he has a lot to do). I will put the article back on my watchlist too. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:40, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Doc James so that he's aware of this. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:56, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ping me when you have done so. Thanks for the heads up SV. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:06, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin, thanks for closing the section. I agree with most of that and do agree to pursue those steps, however my agreement to do so is in response to JYTDog's offer to walk away from the page. I assure you that I will not be the one to violate our agreement but if he decides to not uphold his end of the offer, it will be clear he was not engaged in good faith all along and I will consider our agreement void. I am doing this as an attempt to introduce a more consensus based style of editing to the article and not because he has demonstrated that I have a conflict of interest, because he has provided no evidence that I do. Thanks a lot and I'll follow up with you if I have any other comments.Doors22 (talk) 01:07, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Doors, this wasn't an agreement between you and Jytdog but between you and me. I am asking you to avoid direct article editing there. It doesn't depend on what anyone else does there, but I am pretty sure that, if you honour it, things will work out. If they don't, we can deal with problems as they arise. That is how I closed the discussion. SarahSV ^(talk) 01:25, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin, for now I will WP:AGF on the part of JYTDog and assume he will not renege on his offer. Regarding a agreement between you and me, I see things a little differently as I only agreed to do this if JYTDog walks away. However, it sounds like he is amenable to this solution even if he did not directly state it. I respect your suggestion and your role in helping. As I mentioned, I will make a good faith effort to implement it but I just wanted to clarify my intentions in case issues arise in the future. Thanks.Doors22 (talk) 01:44, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

JYTDog, you posted on my talk page a second time after you have been banned from doing so. At the very least this is a clear lack of self restraint and very disrespectful to me. Please treat the agreement with the agreement with the respect it is due and disruptions will be minimized going forward, which you stated is your goal. If you hold to our agreement, you will effectively get everything you bargained for with the exception of "proving" I have a COI. This seems to be "personal" more than anything. I am more than happy to let the past go if you are - my primary goal is improving the quality of this article more than winning a Wikipedia argument.Doors22 (talk) 02:46, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]