User talk:Double sharp

"You have new messages" was designed for a purpose: letting people know you have replied to them. I may not watch your talk page and I will likely unintentionally IGNORE your reply if you do not ping me in it, use Template:Talkback, or copy it to my page, as I will not be aware that you replied! I also prefer to keep the conversation in one place and not split across multiple pages. Thank you.

The following users watch my talk page (feel free to add yourself to this list if you do so too).

• Tomruen
• Sandbh
• Basemetal (on and off but always when I initiate a conversation; IOW no need to ping me)
• R8R Gtrs

Your GA nomination of Iron

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Iron you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Jclemens -- Jclemens (talk) 06:00, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Found an interesting document on reported chemistry of superheavies

Think this may be interesting for you and your future SHE articles (including seaborgium): http://sci--hub.ac/10.1098/rsta.2014.0191 (you know how to correct the link so it works)--R8R (talk) 20:06, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Note, by the way, an experimental sequence that contradicts your theoretical one: "Adsorption enthalpies were determined which quantify the observed sequence in

volatility of MoO2Cl2 > WO2Cl2 ≈ SgO2Cl2" (also, I'd suggest separating theoretical predictions from experimental results).--R8R (talk) 20:11, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed this in the Hoffman ref. Apparently there were two experiments, one following the theoretical prediction, and one giving your sequence. Double sharp (talk) 04:07, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Iron

The article Iron you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Iron for things which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Jclemens -- Jclemens (talk) 20:40, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Do be sure to ping me once you think you've addressed substantially everything, or in case you have a question or problem that needs my input. I'm pleased by what I see of your improvements so far. Jclemens (talk) 07:13, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, thank you so much! Certainly, I will ping you when I think it is ready. Double sharp (talk) 13:19, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm still holding off on re-review, as I note you're still actively making changes. Jclemens (talk) 21:46, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

So... any more forward progress on this? Is it ready for re-review? Are you ready for me to review another one of your nominated GA-candidate elemental articles? Jclemens (talk) 06:05, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Should be done later today, I think. I have the material now and will write it out. Double sharp (talk) 06:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 9

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that you've added some links pointing to disambiguation pages. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

Chemical elements in East Asian languages (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

added a link pointing to Protium

Iron (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

added a link pointing to Stability constant

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 09:41, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Fixed Double sharp (talk) 12:09, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Explain this to me please

However, the r-process does not directly form as much lead as the s-process, because neutron-rich nuclei with mass numbers 206–208 that would decay to lead are not magic, unlike those that reach the closed neutron shell at neutron number 126 and decay to the platinum group metals around mass number 194

--lead

Why is there that third peak near Os and Pt? why would they not just keep capturing neutrons and turn to lead eventually? so if we have, say, ¹⁹⁴Hf, of course, it will beta decay to osmium, but why wouldn't it just keep capturing neutrons? why does the article mention that as one of the ways to terminate the r-process? And if a 126-neutron nuclide beta decays, it no longer has 126 neutrons, right? (¹⁹⁴Pt, for example, has 116 neutrons)

What is happening is that mass numbers in the 190s are a stalling point for the r-process. Once the 126-neutron shell is filled, even for such an unstable nuclide, it is quite reluctant to capture more. And remember that nuclides are leaving the neutron spam in large quantities. If it were otherwise, everything would become thorium and uranium. Now since nuclides stay at N = 126 longer than any other neutron numbers in the 120s, they have a greater chance to leave the r-process thus, and only later beta decay back to the stability line. Double sharp (talk) 02:59, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, I don't understand this sentence:

The nuclei that form with A = 206–208 nucleons in the r-process (i.e., those that will β− decay to the Pb isotopes) have neither a magic number of neutrons or protons, so they are produced in smaller relative amounts.

--reference from lead, http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0004-637X/698/2/1963/meta;jsessionid=DABAC204E5A01AB7C60E29E1B6D168B8.c1.iopscience.cld.iop.org

Why is that? So this magic 126 is more difficult to add to than a non-magic number, right?

Exactly. What matters is not whether the nuclide eventually decays to a magic one, but if it is already magic when it leaves the neutron spam in the r-process. Your example of ¹⁹⁴Hf is magic and will be preferentially produced, manifesting itself in an abundance of its daughter ¹⁹⁴Os. But, for example, ²⁰⁷Pt is not magic and therefore it is not produced in such large quantities, so we do not see much of its daughter ²⁰⁷Pb. The r-process can only really effectively make radiogenic lead, from the decay chains of nuclides such as ²³¹Pa and ²⁴⁷Cm. Double sharp (talk) 02:59, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Please explain that to me. I want to write a readable article, but I don't understand it myself.--R8R (talk) 16:40, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, this is a fine explanation. Only one question left: why are you saying that Hf-194 (Z=72, N=122) is magic?--R8R (talk) 09:23, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

It's not. Sorry. I'm not entirely well at the moment and made an arithmetic mistake due to being very tired. Substitute ¹⁹⁴Er instead. Double sharp (talk) 13:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Come to think of your reply, I've got another (very basic) question. You're mentioning that heavy nuclei leave the r-process (understandably); but do neutrons in these stars collide to create anything (maybe even protons), or are they left to hit heavy nuckei? I know what a dying star is ans have some basic under of the process, but I wonder if that process is at least partially self-refueling and not only has to deal with nuclei that were there at the beginning--R8R (talk) 11:00, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

There is some "self-refuelling" indeed, but I don't know if the neutrons can crash into each other because they're so light, unlike what would happen if they crashed into a big, lumbering iron nucleus. Please note that the r-process is not as well understood as the s-process: we mimic the latter fairly well in nuclear reactors, but to create r-process neutron fluxes we currently need to detonate nuclear bombs, an experiment which is for obvious reasons seldom replicated today (thank goodness!). The "self-refuelling" I am talking about is what happens when A crosses 209 and goes into the region of the actinides, when absorbing neutrons will have a high probability of causing fission (like ²³⁵U – this is, I think, the explanation for why Th and U are so rare in the Solar System and in fact the Universe in general, that I should add to the Th article when I'm not so tired). Even if this hurdle is crossed, by the time you get to N = 175 and beyond in the transactinide range, the stability is so low because of incredibly high Coulomb repulsion between protons that the nuclei will spontaneously fission instead of beta decaying. This is what happens to Zagrebaev's predicted quasi-stable copernicium isotopes, ²⁹¹Cn and ²⁹³Cn (N = 179 and 181 respectively), which should have millenium half-lives but still be dangerously unstable to spontaneous fission. (In fact, the only reason why they should survive this long is because SF is most feasible for even-even isotopes, and the odd neutron hinders it.) The nuclides around here, like ²⁷⁹Mt, should undergo SF in a matter of seconds, with the aforementioned copernicium isotopes as grand exceptions. And their fission products would re-seed the r-process.

Here are some links: one two three. Double sharp (talk) 13:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

One more. I see you added back the electron captures in this graph. I remember I asked you, but I forgot the answer: do electron captures actually happen in stars?--R8R (talk) 13:22, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Why shouldn't they? The nuclei in stars are very rarely completely ionised. ²⁰⁵Pb⁸²⁺ just needs to find one electron to absorb into its K shell and capture later, which it can easily do due to its immense charge. Double sharp (talk) 13:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

P.S. If you look at Zagrebaev's paper (with predicted half-lives and decay modes for many of the very heaviest nuclides) you will see what I am talking about; the r-process there runs straight into a green sea of instability to spontaneous fission, and the fission fragments act as new seeds. Double sharp (talk) 13:40, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

One more question (now in linguistics)

I tried to find any sources more reliable than Wiktionary for etymology of the word "lead" and I found this nice Proto-Germanic dictrionary. An entry reads:

*lauda- n. 'lead' - OE lead n. 'id.', E lead, OFri. liid n. 'id.', Du. lood n. 'id.' (LW). A loanword from Celt. *cploud-io-, cf. Mir. luaide m. 'lead' < *ploud-, which is connected to Lat. plumbum ( < *plumdh-) and Gr. µ6A.u�cSo<; (µ6A.L�O<;, var. µ6A.u�o<;, µ6A.L�Oo<;, �6A.u�ooc;, �6A.Lµo<;, �6AL�o<;). The same word through a different (Pre-lndo-European) route also served as the basis for *blfwa- 2 'lead'. The idea that the Greek word was borrowed from Lydian mariwda-, allegedly 'the dark metal', cf. CLuv. maryai- adj. 'black, dark-colored(?)' (Melchert 2008) is ingenious, but fails to explain how Lydian r could have given Greek A.

(page 368)

and another one reads:

*bliwa- 2 n. 'lead' - ON b!y n. 'id.', Far. b!yggj n. 'id.', OS bli n. 'id.', OHG blio n. 'id.', G Blei n. 'id.' => *m//uo- (NIE). A non-IE Wanderwort reminiscent of Myc. mo-ri-wo-do-, Gr. µ6A.u(3oo<;, µ6A.L(3o<;, (36A.Lµo<; m. 'lead' and Lat. p/umbum 'id.'. The Greek forms, with their interchange of initial µ and (3, are highly irregular and must be analyzed as borrowings from a Pre-IE source, e.g. *mo/ii(m)bd-. It therefore seems likely that PGm. *b/iwa-, too, goes back to a non-IE proto-form *mliuo- with initial m.

(page 107)

I can't understand the idea of what's written. So Celtic *φploud-io- comes from where exactly? What same word also served as the basis for *bliwa- 2? Do two different words evolve into one and then split into two again? Give me a second opinion on this, please--R8R (talk) 13:06, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Besides, how does the Wiktionary make the claim claimed to be supported by ref 2? Here's ref 2: [http://orientproject.ru/sites/default/files/library/65417659-LIV-Lexikon.pdf so need a fresh look on this--R8R (talk) 13:25, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

This is way out of my knowledge. The good people at WP:LINGUISTICS would be far more able to help with this than I would – I only realised that such sections would be necessary for ancient metals. In the case of Pb, from the limited distance I got researching, the origins of the English word are shrouded in far greater mystery than in the case of Fe. If I had to write something, I'd probably simply write that Pb comes from Latin plumbum, and then note the proto-Germanic sources of the English word lead and mention that there may be a connection to plumbum as well, which itself seems to be a borrowing from some other ancient tongue. That, I think, would be all the detail I would expect or need for the general article on Pb. (But maybe this is because my main interest in any element is its chemistry, its personality if you like. Others may have very different needs.) Double sharp (talk) 15:06, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

I will write to them if I have to (thanks for the tip), but I assumed that a dictionary must be written in a way accessible to its readers and it's me who doesn't understand the written text being the problem rather than the text and maybe you can read what's written. Check the dictionary itself rather than what I blindly copied; maybe there's a chance you'll get it?--R8R (talk) 16:44, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

I would expect that for a dictionary of a modern language, not of a reconstructed proto-language. But I will look again. Double sharp (talk) 01:52, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Caesium

V

Os

Co

Hi Double sharp, you know, fresh destilled high purity Cs is more silvery then golden! The golden color cames from Cs-suboxides, like Cs₄₉O and others ... I got a fresh destilled ampoule with 6N Cs for the NASA Ion thruster from a German manufacturer. The Cs was almost silvery, not golden! Depending on how old an ampoule with Cs is, the color will be much more golden. The Cs get the oxygen from the glass. --Alchemist-hp (talk) 17:13, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

I know the oxides contribute to the colour, but I took the 'golden-yellow' description straight from Greenwood. The Chemistry of the Liquid Alkali Metals describes the solid and liquid as 'pale gold'; do you think that is better? Double sharp (talk) 23:42, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

I know all the chemistry books. All the authors never saw the true high purity fresh destilled "silvery" Cs ... but, ok: 'pale gold' sound better for me. --Alchemist-hp (talk) 14:51, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Okay, changed to "pale gold". Greenwood attributes colours to some other metals as well, saying Co has "a bluish tinge", Zn and Cd have "a bluish lustre", and that Ca, Sr, Ba, Eu, and Yb are "pale yellow". What's your opinion on these colours? Double sharp (talk) 15:06, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Ha, ha, ha: "Ca, Sr, Ba, Eu, and Yb are "pale yellow"" is wrong! High pure and not oxidized metals are: Ca silvery-white, Sr silvery, Ba "silvery-pale gold", Yb silvery-white. Co has not "a bluish tinge", Zn have "a bluish lustre" is correct, but not Cd. Cd is more silvery-white similar to tin + silver. Os is bluish-silvery, Ta is dark silvery-lilac. V is also bluish. Best regards, --Alchemist-hp (talk) 15:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! I suppose this means your picture of Sr is oxidised, because it looks pale yellow to me? (Also, you didn't mention Eu. I realise it oxidises really quickly, but since you've seen high-purity fresh Cs, you may have seen pure unoxidised Eu too?!)

P.S. Would love to see unoxidised ultrapure Ba from you (the current picture is so oxidised), as well as better pictures of Ca and Sr if that is indeed oxidised – it really is strange that I've never seen any of them really pure even though I've lost count how many times I've used their compounds. I haven't seen enough pure elements! Double sharp (talk) 15:43, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Lead

Hi! I've got a question that I don't have an answer for off the top of my head. If you know some book to read on this, that would be especially helpful.

Do you know how the relativistic effects affect physical properties of an element? Of course, I see why gas was seen as a possibility for 114, and solid for 118. But what else is there? Talking about lead, in what ways could one non-relativistic lead differ from relativistic lead?--R8R (talk) 12:09, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

The most important effect is that non-relativistic Pb would have a diamond cubic structure like the stable or metastable forms of its lighter congeners C, Si, Ge, and Sn, while relativistic Pb is fcc. The reason is that the diamond structure is stabilised by sp³ hybridisation and it is too energetically costly for Pb to promote one 6s electron to the 6p orbital. Here is a more detailed treatment. Unlike flerovium, there is no sizeable impact on the melting and boiling points of lead, because the 6p_1/2 electrons are not experiencing a mild inert pair effect yet (for example, bismuth greatly prefers the +3 state over the +1 state). Double sharp (talk) 12:38, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

(Originally in the above post I didn't mention the increased results of the lanthanide contraction because this is a very weak factor from Hg onwards, but yes it is present too to a minuscule extent.) Double sharp (talk) 12:55, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, very interesting. I've come to think your suggestion with a separate subsection talking just about electron config is reasonable. Yet now I wonder how should organize info in that section given what you say (of course, I'll use (later) trial and error, but for now I'm still dazzled about this)--R8R (talk) 13:00, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! Also, it's not exactly physical, but the standard electrode potentials of Pb are also prominently influenced by relativity (link), leading to the funny quip "cars start due to relativity" (lead-acid batteries). Double sharp (talk) 13:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

There's some difficulty in saying any more for Pb because the relativistic effects in the 6th period are not actually that high; even the lanthanide contraction is mostly already expected (effective nuclear charge increases and the outer electrons are still in the same 5d and 6s shells), so relativistic effects here are merely quantitative. For example, you would have expected a low melting point for Hg with its 5d¹⁰6s² configuration anyway; you just might not have expected it to be this low. The inert pair effect is already observable in In and Sn, and you would have expected something like this to happen because bond energy decreases with size so that it's no longer worth it to get the s-electrons involved.

In period 6 relativistic effects rise very slowly from Hf to Ir, reach a very sharp maximum at Pt and Au, and fall down quite quickly after that from Hg to Rn. This is quite unlike period 7 where you have a large staircase climb from 104 to 112 and then a slow fall down to 118 (where it is still very high).

So the only cases where you really need to bring in relativity to understand what is going on in period 6 are Pt and Au. Non-relativistic gold would really be qualitatively different from relativistic gold, not just quantitatively; you wouldn't have aurophilicity and aurides if not for this, and you wouldn't be able to achieve such high oxidation states (relativity means that Au is reluctant to be oxidised in the first place, but when it is it achieves quite high oxidation states). Indeed non-relativistic gold would be a post-transition metal instead of a transition metal, and would have a much lower melting point than it does. (Despite our article, I cannot quite believe that relativity is responsible for the golden tint of caesium, since Thayer says that relativistic effects are unimportant for Cs which behaves pretty much as expected for the fifth alkali metal. If we believe Greenwood, a similar weak golden tint is also found in calcium, and I cannot believe that relativity is the cause of that either.) Double sharp (talk) 13:16, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I didn't think for a second this would be a major thing to talk about. Still, it was a good idea to get a better coverage in my head so that it would be easier for me to think what the final product should be like.

As for color, yes, probably. I wouldn't think that copper is brown because of relativity.yo Too bad we won't see francium for comparison.--R8R (talk) 13:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

"In period 6 relativistic effects rise very slowly from Hf to Ir, reach a very sharp maximum at Pt and Au, and fall down quite quickly after that from Hg to Rn." -- hmm, really? I assumed that relativity itself was increasing more or less gradually, it just didn't manifest itself as gradually as the background from non-relativistic elements changed. Am I not right here?--R8R (talk) 13:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

The magnitude of the total effect depends a great deal on electron configuration. What is going on is that you have multiple effects that partially cancel each other out. Not only do you have a direct relativistic effect resulting in the nucleus being better-screened and Z_eff dropping, but you also have an indirect destabilisation effect (predominantly on d- and f-orbitals) in which all orbitals are energetically destabilised and expand. But as a result of this destabilisation of the d- and f-orbitals the s-electrons experience a greater Z_eff and experience indirect stabilisation! (Now you can see how many factors are working in opposition here!) The indirect destabilisation is dominant at the beginning of the 5d row with Hf, but as you fill in the d-subshell more and more the indirect stabilisation begins to overpower it, resulting in a huge stabilisation at the Au when we reach 5d¹⁰. When you get to Tl this effect ceases because 5d drops into the core. Please note that despite the impressive figures you will see for the relativistic effect on the 1s electrons (e.g. all the H-like atom figures in the superheavies), this is actually quite irrelevant for the chemistry. These elements don't use 1s electrons for bonding! Perhaps this book might offer some explanation.

Here's a presentation by Pyykkö on the subject, showing a graph of relativistic effects from Cs to Fm. The entrance to the "relativistic region" of the periodic table is quite abrupt and starts with Lu. The trend is quite normal, except that Pt and Au are serious outliers, having relativistic effects on the order of those of the late actinides. Double sharp (talk) 13:53, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

P.S. The first excited state of Fr is [Rn]7p, which is at the 12237 cm⁻¹ level. In comparison, silvery Rb has first excited state [Kr]5p at 12579 cm⁻¹, and golden Cs has [Xe]6p at 11178 cm⁻¹. This confirms that relativistic effects lead to the (n−1)d/ns gap closing and the ns/np gap widening. I might therefore hazard a guess (to you, not to the WP readers) that bulk francium is silvery with perhaps the slightest hint of yellow. (The alkali metal article says only "The stable alkali metals are all silver-coloured metals except for caesium, which has a pale golden tint". That was added a long while ago, though the fact that it could be cited in that form with the word "stable" makes me wonder if there is a relativistic study of Fr anywhere.) Double sharp (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Would you take a look: Lead#Atomic_configuration? Is there anything I'm missing for the final story?--R8R (talk) 16:29, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I've made some changes. Double sharp (talk) 16:44, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Well done! Are we done w/ that subsection otherwise? Is there anything big we could be missing?--R8R (talk) 16:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Would you also look at Lead#Bulk_properties? Is there anything I'm missing?--R8R (talk) 10:27, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Well, for a start, I mentioned on the talk page that I thought the "ductile" assertion needed to be more qualified. Also, why is the electrical conductivity so low? Calcium is also face-centered cubic and about the same size, and yet its conductivity is quite a bit higher than that of lead. Double sharp (talk) 13:39, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I totally forgot about that note! I'll resolve that later.--R8R (talk) 14:31, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Now I'd like to ask you a question for which I don't know the answer. Not yet sure if this should be said in the article (leaning towards yes for now) but I definitely want to know myself (that's why towards yes). Why is lead not as dense as period 6 TMs? Osmium and iridium beat lead at density almost twofold while actually being lighter than lead.--R8R (talk) 15:01, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Isn't this very simple? It's because Pb has a much larger atomic radius than Os or Ir. Density is mass over volume, after all. As for why that is true, I imagine it's because 5d¹⁰ is stuck in the core at Hg, and 6p is relativistically significantly destabilised (you will notice the effect is much larger in period 6 than 5). Double sharp (talk) 15:41, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

The way you put it, yes, yes, it is. This makes me think we may not have to dig into this on the article. However, I am yet left unsatisfied: there must be some systematic reason why Pb is so big compared to the TMs but I seem to have temporarily forgotten it (or may be to not know in first place). Itself it's not as interesting a question but we mention lead being described as heavy (dense actually) and also mentioning there is a metal twice as heavy.--R8R (talk) 16:04, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

the constitution of group 3 task force

I passed on your comments to Eric about this. He asked if you could read the final chapter of his VSI (very short introduction) book on the periodic table. He added that it was hard to follow what you were saying since many things seemed to be mentioned in the context of previous conversations. If you want to get through to him you'll need to start with him from the beginning. He said he was well aware of the split d block option and that it seemed like you didn't realise this.

I encourage you to follow up with him, since it would test his work on the task force and that'd be a good thing. Sandbh (talk) 11:03, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I read the chapter. Do you think the text below is better? I've tried to start from the beginning.

(1) My essential problem with the atomic number triads argument is that it does not seem to me to give the chemically ideal approach in some cases. For example, the triads seem to argue for H being placed over F as a halogen, when it absolutely does not fit the trends of that group. Hydrogen is not a strong oxidising agent and in fact is unable to form ionic hydrides with the vast majority of metals. The main shared property is that it forms diatomic molecules at STP, but the alkali metals do so too as gases. Hydrogen's chemistry as H⁺ is also far more important than that of H• (an unstable free radical that doesn't want to exist at STP) or that of the squishy and deformable H⁻ ion. When placed in group 1, hydrogen fits nicely as the least reactive member of the group (doesn't react with O₂ or N₂, or H₂O, and is only coaxed to do so by the halogens). Its proclivity for covalent bonding is easily explained by the fact that H⁺ would be a very small charge and that its formation is unfavourable, thus forming part of a "zeroth-row anomaly". Given that a Li-like model of chemistry is a better predictor of how H actually behaves than an F-like model, I think the concept of atomic number triads needs serious questioning if it recommends the latter, and that it is not a very strong argument for Lu fitting better under Y than La does.

(2) I realise that Prof. Scerri is well aware of the split d-block option, but the Chemistry International article does not seem to be aware of it. Indeed, it seems to think that putting La under Y implies the silly sequence with La between Lu and Hf that doesn't have the atomic numbers in sequential order, based on its wording and figures.

(3) The asymmetry of the split d-block option does not necessarily imply that it is false. Indeed group 3 and the lanthanides behave very much like their s-block neighbours, in that they are electropositive metals with only one important mostly ionic oxidation state (with a few exceptions, namely Ce, Sm, Eu, and Yb – and even then +3 is the most stable state in aqueous solution), and they all reduce water. This is quite distinct from the behaviour of group 4 (and even Th), for which the +4 state is too high to be ionic; and though their low oxidation states are quite rare, they are certainly well-known in simple compounds (e.g. ZrCl₃ and HfCl₃). Double sharp (talk) 12:12, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

@Sandbh: Do you think the above text would succeed in starting from the beginning? I also re-read through my original text at Talk:Periodic table#the constitution of group 3 task force and note that it does not actually assume knowledge of previous discussions. Certainly it raises that certain issues have been discussed before, but it summarises again those arguments. Chief I suppose would be my contention that the facts of chemistry should trump an ideal Platonic symmetry, whether it be putting Lu under Y or putting Cu, Ag, and Au in a supposed "group IB". Actually I think I should add:

(4) It is not clear how much the concept of a block actually means for the chemistry of an element. Despite being in the s-block, H and He are well distinct from any other s-block members, and Be and Mg are more similar to Al in the p-block and Zn in the d-block respectively, while Zn is quite distinct in the d-block (witness all the arguments against Zn as a transition metal), and Al is certainly quite different from Cl or Ar in the p-block. The first row of f-block elements behaves like the s-block elements (they are electropositive metals with only one main oxidation state), while the opening of the second row of the f-block acts as though it was a fourth row of the d-block. A desire to keep the d-block intact is all fine and well from the perspective of Platonic symmetry, but there is already an established precedent in breaking the s-block to prioritise chemistry over Platonic symmetry. The upshot is: are we drawing a table to make it look pretty and subdivide it into pastel-coloured rectangles, or are we drawing one to illustrate chemical similarities in the best way possible? Double sharp (talk) 05:20, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I've been busy with the HM FAC and still am. Ill see if I can look at this later and let you know if I can answer quickly or not. Sandbh (talk) 05:55, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

My work on the HM FAC is nearly done (I hope) and I'll be able to look at this after that. There are no quick responses I can give to you. I need to reread the sources, carefully reread your line of argument, and then give you a considered answer. Sandbh (talk) 12:53, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 5

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Requiem (Mozart), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Ludwig Berger (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 10:31, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Fixed. Double sharp (talk) 11:43, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Seaborgium

Have you seen a declaration by either team that they won't name the newly created element 106 in the seventies? I think I've seen both one from Ghiorso and one from Ogannessian, but now I can't find either.--R8R (talk) 22:26, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Did you get a notification I had mentioned you in my sandbox?

I transferred some stuff from my talk page to my sandbox that had other people's signatures attached. I got rid of people's signatures since I wondered if that might not cause them to be notified that I had "mentioned" them in my sandbox. Did you get one such notification? I might have overlooked one of yours. Basemetal 15:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

No, but I saw your recent contributions and was interested by one of the old conversations found there (the one about double accidentals in Bach). Double sharp (talk) 15:17, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Cancelling a sharp with a flat sign and vice versa?

Have you encountered by any chance in any of the autographs of the 48 any place where a flat belonging to a key signature is cancelled not with a natural but with a sharp sign or conversely a place where a sharp belonging to a key signature is cancelled not with a natural but with a flat sign? Basemetal 15:17, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Not in the 48 that I know of, but this sort of cancellation (a flat cancelling an earlier sharp to a natural) appears in BWV 1021 from 1732 (albeit in figured bass). Double sharp (talk) 15:22, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Yeah but in figured basses that used to be common, e.g. the raised 3rd was always notated with a sharp sign, no matter what the signature of the key was, until some pedants in Germany decided that they would use naturals instead if the note was flat in the signature. And that then spread from Germany to other fools. Of course the idea is the same, but I've been chasing for years for examples of another (and in my opinion more logical) convention for notating accidentals in scores that might have existed in the 17th and 18th c. The results have been mixed so far. Yet that convention was truly more logical and I can defend that statement. Basemetal 15:34, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

As a pianist and singer, instead of as a theorist, I would disagree on that convention being more logical. I would prefer D-sharp to always look like a D affected by a sharp (either next to it or in the key signature), instead of its appearance changing depending on whether we are in E major (in which case we see a natural), C major (in which case we see a sharp), or A-flat major (in which case we see a double-sharp). I'm not saying the current convention is more logical, but I do think it is just as logical, though it prioritises absolute pitch over relative functions. Double sharp (talk) 15:53, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Ok, let's not argue. To some extent it depends on what one is already used to and since you're such a voracious score reader you may feel that the convention you're so used to is more natural. I'll just note a triviality namely that to interpret a note without an accidental you obviously already need to take the signature into account, since that is what a signature is for to begin with, so I don't think it would be such a big jump to apply the same sort of mental mechanism to notes with accidentals. Also you may argue that in that other convention there is no way to use cautionary accidentals, but in fact you can systematically use the natural sign as a cautionary accidental if you need one (since in that other convention the natural sign means the note is to be played or sung with exactly the same accidental it has at the signature) and it would work about the same once you get used to it. Basemetal 16:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

P.S. The other problem I have with your proposed convention is that it seems to imply that accidentals in the key signature must be interpreted absolutely while those in the actual musical text must be interpreted relatively, despite them looking exactly the same. I think this is too confusing. I appreciate that the point I raised above is weaker, since different clefs already mean that notes do not always look the same at first glance (for example, E4 is on the bottom line on the treble staff but on the fourth line on the alto staff). The one case I think your proposal would be a great bonus is in sight-transposition. Double sharp (talk) 15:55, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, the "algorithm" for sight transposition with signature and clef (change clef, change signature, done) would be a piece of cake (well, ok) whereas it gives me a headache just to think of the "algorithm" one has to use now. The mere difference in the simplicity of the "algorithms" I think already says a lot. Basemetal 16:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

• So you've practiced clefs and transposition with (change of) signature and clef (I mean imagining a new clef and signature). That tells me you're probably not from North America because Jerome Kohl told me it was not very common for that to be seriously studied there. (Although he told me he personally did by himself). I know a guy who went to Juilliard and who told me they did practice it some there, but never actually practiced all seven clefs very seriously! How useful! I'm curious, did you guys use "3rd line F clef" or "5th line C clef"? Basemetal 16:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

What's going on at IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library?

Several of my links to documents at IMSLP do not work any more. On top of that they are asking me for money. Is anything going on there? Are we gonna lose free access? Basemetal 15:19, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

They still work for me even when logged out of IMSLP. This is quite an old thing from last year. You do not need to pay if you don't mind waiting the full 15 seconds for each download. And in the case of the 48, you can quite hilariously exhaust these 15 seconds just by opening as many of the files as you can in separate tabs, and then going through them all again. Double sharp (talk) 15:22, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Was Don ever on the faculty at the School of Informatics at Indiana?

Don's page seems to say he's on the faculty of the School of Informatics at Indiana. But if you look at the personnel page of the School of Informatics his name does no longer show up? (Did it ever?) Do you have an explanation? I hope we're not gonna lose that Extremes of CMN site if Don runs away to Bolivia or Colombia or something. All that hard work for nothing! (Especially you!) Basemetal 15:25, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I don't remember having checked that beforehand, but even if he does leave for elsewhere we at least have copies archived by the Wayback Machine. Double sharp (talk) 15:30, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Yeah but you see the problem: the archived copy is from March 2016 whereas there is already a revision from August 2016. Maybe the best idea would be that you make a personal copy and store it some place safe (maybe on WP in your user space). Another advantage of that idea: you could include actual pictures illustrating the various cases: that would be a lot more useful than people having to themselves go and look those examples up (whereas Don's site is exclusively text based and only gives you a pointer to the examples). Maybe there could even be a WP page with essentially the material that is at Don's site. Btw, not only is Don a bit slow in including the examples sent to him but there is a document (mentioned I think at his page) that also contains examples of the same order and that is years old and that was never integrated and is still not included in the main list. Basemetal 16:30, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, not a bad idea. But would he be okay with that sort of duplication? I don't think he'd mind if I limited its scope somehow, like perhaps "things you never expected to see from Mozart" (such as polytonality, whole-tone scales, polymeters with non-coinciding barlines, tone rows, six-flat key signatures). But copying the whole of his list and adding further examples smacks of competition and plagiarism to my perhaps over-sensitive conscience. Double sharp (talk) 16:37, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Ok, then, make a copy and only make it public if Don's site happens to disappear one day. Basemetal 16:53, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

"RVV"?

"Revert Vandalism"? Why did you revert that editor's work?[1] Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Talk 16:56, 9 September 2016 (UTC)