User talk:Paul Siebert

Welcome!

Hello, Paul Siebert, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! Arnoutf (talk) 20:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Erlikman book

You should be able to find the Erlikman book in the Library of Congress. I got the book in Russia back in 2004. Vadim Erlikman. Poteri narodonaseleniia v XX veke : spravochnik. Moscow 2004. ISBN 5-93165-107-1--Woogie10w (talk) 22:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Library of Congress Info:
LC Control No.: 2004402626
LCCN Permalink: http://lccn.loc.gov/2004402626
Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
Personal Name: Ėrlikhman, Vadim.
Main Title: Poteri narodonaselenii︠a︡ v XX veke : spravochnik / Vadim Ėrlikhman.
Variant Title: Poteri narodonaselenii︠a︡ v 20. veke
Poteri narodonaselenii︠a︡ v dvadt︠s︡atom veke
Published/Created: Moskva : "Russkai︠a︡ panorama", 2004.
Description: 174, [1] p. ; 24 cm.
ISBN: 5931651071
--Woogie10w (talk) 13:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Zemskov Data

I have the book The Stalinist Penal System by Otto Pohl. This book has a recap of Zemskov's statistics on the Gulag. Pohl believes that the actual total's were higher when one takes into account summary executions and deaths in transit camps. The offical figures claim 338,000 Soviets were taken into custody by the NKVD out of 5,229,000 repatriated in 1945-46. Zemskov says there 148,079 in exile in 1947. What happened to the other 190,000?--Woogie10w (talk) 22:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Statistics on Soviet citizens freeded in Germany 1945

The repatriation data comes from : Rossiiskaia Akademiia nauk. Liudskie poteri SSSR v period vtoroi mirovoi voiny:sbornik statei. Sankt-Peterburg 1995 ISBN 5-86789-023-6

Total held in Germany: 5,917,000. 3,632,000 Civilians, 2,016,000 Military

Total Repatriated 5,229,000. 3,438,000 Civilians, 1,790,000 Military
Of Whom:
Drafted into Military: 1,645,000
Returned to civilian Life: 3,246,000
In custody of NKVD: 338,000

Remained in western countries: 688,000

Those folks came to New York [1] When I was little,50 years ago, my dad would go to the Ukrainian market to buy Kilbalsa and bread. He called them Rusyns They still live near 7th street, but the market is closed--Woogie10w (talk) 01:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Re: Axis close in

Dear Paul,

If you sincerely commiserate Estonians as victims of communism, you should understand that part of the tragedy was the fact that the only uniform, the Estonians were allowed to fight against Soviet re-occupation, was Nazi German. People knew, it was dangerous and hated the uniform, but they were desperate to get a chance to fight for their country. The Estonian political leaders called the people not to resist German conscription. The verdict of Nuremberg Trials excluded "those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes" from any criminal charges. In 1950, the U.S. Displaced Persons Commission declared that: "The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, so only a person with little historical knowledge would call the Baltic countries part of the Axis because of the existence of Baltic Waffen SS. Sincerely, Erikupoeg (talk) 01:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

WWII

That the section still implies that the war began in 1937, and omits the German, British, and French declarations of war. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Re: annexation vs. occupation

Traditionally the 1938 events in Austria are referred to as "annexation of Austria", while "occupation of Austria" is the Allied rule in Austria 1945 - 1955. The differences between how the German and Allied arrived or how they ruled during the period, has nothing to with the term used to call the period. Although "Annexation of Baltic states" is synonym to "Occupation of Baltic states", the latter is a more common term among history publications. Erikupoeg (talk) 16:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Re:Axis close in

About occupation of Estonia: If you look at Occupation of the Baltic states#Recognition and non-recognition of annexation and occupation, you'll see, that no more than four countries recognized the annexation of Baltic states de jure, while the rest recognized it only de facto or not at all. This is hardly explained by 'some political reasons for such a statement (Cold War etc)' suggested by you. About Holocaust in Estonia: Various Estonian police formations and less than 3% of Estonian Self Defense were actively involved in the arrest and killing of 963 Estonian Jews[2] and about 10,000 Jews deported to Estonia from other parts of Europe.[3] The police were also actively engaged in actions against Estonians deemed to be opponents of the Germans. Despite the criminal activities in which numbers of policemen were engaged, it is not reasonable to assign responsibility to the Estonian police structures as a whole.[4] Anti-semitism was not exercised by Estonian civilians, rather the opposite.[Birn, Ruth Bettina (2001), Collaboration with Nazi Germany in Eastern Europe: the Case of the Estonian Security Police. Contemporary European History 10.2, 181-198] About Estonia as an Axis ally: Being an Axis ally requires being a country, which Estonia wasn't in 1944. Underground, the Estonian politicians lead by Jüri Uluots, the acting Head of the State pursuant to Constitution of Estonia, were fighting the German authorities to become a country. For the purpose, the Soviets had to be kept behind Estonian borders. The only way to do it was dressed in a German uniform. On September 18, with the Germans on the leave, the Estonian government, freshly appointed by the acting Head of State, declared Estonia's neutrality in the war over the radio, in English. The Estonians having an impact on the German side had nothing to do with Estonia as a side in WWII, as it did not exist as a country until September 18 1944. Similarly, Ukrainian Insurgent Army consisting in Polish citizens, which had an impact on the German side, did not make Poland or Western Ukraine an Axis ally. Erikupoeg (talk) 19:01, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

You wrote: You are a little bit inconsistent. If a small amount of forcibly mobilized Estonians fought against the Soviets,...

I don't see the inconsistency there. Roughly a half of the troopers in the Battle of Narva were Estonians. Most of the Estonians were drafted forcibly, in the sense that they were denied the formation of national units. Parts were volunteers, including Finnish Infantry Regiment 200, the police and border guard units.

You wrote: ...I doubt if was their resistance that stopped Soviet advance, and if they, unlike Dutch and Norwegians, deserve a separate mentioning in such a global article.

The current statement in the article does not say, that Soviets were stopped by Estonians alone, but uses the term included. Perhaps a more accurate term could be used. Unlike the Dutch and the Danes, the Estonians were defending the re-establishment of the independence of their country. Attempts to compete the Soviets out on re-establishment of statehood were made along Eastern Europe, including actions by UIA, Warsaw uprising, Slovak National Uprising, and more. Some of these targeted the Germans as the major threat to their independence, some the Soviets. These ambitions had notable success in Estonia, keeping the Soviets out for eight months, and establishing the national government both de jure and de facto. I would agree to make the statement more general, attaching the Battle of Narva and the Estonian campaign for independence to the entity of ambitions for re-establishment of independence along the Eastern Front.

You wrote: My opinion is (and I agree with the US Commission) that Estonians (like other nations) are not responsible for the SS past of their compatriots, but...

As I pointed out before, Nuremberg trials explicitly stated that the Baltic SS formations were not envolved in any crimes, so there's nothing to be responsible for, except for warfare against the Soviets.

You wrote: ...the Battle of Narva is not glorious page of Estonian history.

I agree, but this does not mean, the fact should be erased.

You wrote: There is absolutely no analogy with UIA, by the way. Almost all of them were ethnic Urkainians, and they fought, among others, against Poles, mostly civilians, so Poland, for sure, bear no responsibility for their actions. In contrast to that, I think, despite Poland didn't exist from 1939 to 1945, the Poles are responsibe for what Armia Krajova did during WWII.

Now, that's inconsistent. How come the Armija Krajowa and Estonian Waffen SS get attached to a nation, and the UIA don't!? The UIA were extreme nationalists, remember? Erikupoeg (talk) 11:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

All of those three have a direct relation to their nations: AK to Poles, UIA to Urkainians and Estonian Waffen SS - to Estonians. In the latter case the connection was not so obvious, because, as the US commission correctly pointed out, those non-Germans who served in Waffen SS opposite their will are not responsible for the crimes of the latters.
You refer to Nuremberg trials that stated Estinoan SS didn't commit any crimes. You probably know that some decisions of this trials were disputable. Estonian SS really didn't commit serious crimes as compared to big SS. However, they were a part of Waffen SS, they fought, among others, for Germans, therefore they indirectly helped SS to kill Jews, Belarussians, Russians, Poles etc. In contrast, advancement of Red Army helped to save many, many lives, so anybody who opposed its advancement is indirectly responsible for Nazi's crimes.
I beg you to understand my major point. I don't blame Estonians in anything and I comassionate them (among Jews, Russians, Belorussians etc.), until they (you) try to turn your shame into your glory. I fully agree that first Soviet occupation had much severe consequences for Estonians than the occupation by Nazis. Baltic nations are very separate case, because Himmler personally favored them (in contrast to your neighbours), and this fact alone makes you Nazi's ally (without, I fully agree, your will). Your life was better under Nazis then under Soviets, however, it is hardly an excuse for fighting for Germans. Sinserely yours --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see, how you blaming or not blaming, Estonian shame or glory has anything to do with Wikipedia? It's not a PR site. Wikipedia is about facts, and the following is a major fact in the history of the World: Hundreds of thousands of Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and Western Ukrainians fought for the independence of their countries on the German side, establishing a shadow government in Western Ukraine and a constitutional government in Estonia. Erikupoeg (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I, probably, didn't explain something that was obvious for me. This article, in its present version, only briefly mentions the most pivotal points of this war. If we take Eastern Front as an example, even the Battle of Kursk was mentioned only very briefly, majority of decisive battles and important events have not been mentioned at all. Although Wikipedia is about facts, not all facts can be presented in Wikipedia. Therefore, if you consider Estonian resistance to deserve explicit mentioning in this context, then you imply Estonians were important participants of the war, more important that Western Urkainians, Lithuanians and Latvians. On other hand, you also will have to present evidences that they fought for their independence only, and not for Dritte Reich, and I don't think it would be so easy (By the way, UIA at least pretended it fought against both Nazis and the Soviets). It would be also not easy to explain as how Estonians who fough against the Soviets to protect their borders and independence appear to be neutral in the war. If those military attempts were considerable, there would be no reason to talk about neutrality.
It seems to me that real war contribution of Estonians allows them not to be mentioned in this article in details (as compared to other Eastern Europeans) and this is a good chanse for you not to remind peoples about you SS past. Best regards --Paul Siebert (talk) 16:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I already agreed to mention Estonian events in the context of other nations fight for independence, deleting the current statement:"After the Soviet relief of the siege of Leningrad in February 1944, the Soviet counter offensive was halted at the Estonian border for 8 months by the German Armed Forces, aided by a large number of Estonian conscripts and volunteers intent on the re-establishment of Estonian independence. ," and re-writing the section as follows:"On June 22, the Soviets launched a strategic offensive in Belarus (known as "Operation Bagration") that resulted in the almost complete destruction of the German Army Group Centre. Soon after that, another Soviet major strategic offensive forced the German troops from Ukraine and Eastern Poland. The major assault against Romania resulted in the Soviet occupation of Romania, Bulgaria, and the ceding of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina to Soviet Union Bitter resistance in the Karelian Isthmus and the halt of the offensive towards the military bases on the southern coast of Gulf of Finland, denied the occupation of Finland. The swift advance of Soviet Armed Forces prompted the countries occupied by the Soviets in 1939-1940 to establish independence ahead of a looming re-occupation. This resulted in several uprisings in Poland, while hundreds of thousands of Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and Western Ukrainians joined the German side to fight the Soviets. As the result, the Soviet Armed Forces captured Estonia from the constitutional government, and Western Ukraine from a shadow government. " Erikupoeg (talk) 23:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Generally, it looks good, although I have some questions and proposals. First, not only Bulgaria and Romania were occupied, they also joined the war at the allies' side, so if you add something about that it would be fine. Second, I think it it is important to note that Romania was the last Nazi's oil sourse. Third, I would remove a notion about Bessarabia and Bukovina, because the Soviets had already annexed those territory before 1941, so it sounds like the Soviet took more. Fourth, while hundreds of thousands of Estonians etc sounds not completely clear: is it a total number or each of these nations were represented in Wehrmacht in such an amount? As regards to Urkainians, I am aware of Galicia division only, so it sounds like a hyperbola. Fifth. your reference on countries occupied by the Soviets in 1939-1940 sends me at non-informative page. What did you mean? And the last question. What do you know about Lithuanian and Latvian attempts to establish a government? If there were any, they should be mentioned. If not, just write about Estonians, Poles and West Urkainians. I think the rest is fine.
Best regards,--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

In Latvia and Lithuania, there was no recorded attempt of restoring independence de jure. Here's an updated version:"On June 22, the Soviets launched a strategic offensive in Belarus (known as "Operation Bagration") that resulted in the almost complete destruction of the German Army Group Centre. Soon after that, another Soviet major strategic offensive forced the German troops from Ukraine and Eastern Poland. The major assault against Romania resulted in the Soviet occupation of Romania and Bulgaria and the countries' shift to the Allies side. Bitter resistance in the Karelian Isthmus and the halt of the offensive towards the military bases on the southern coast of Gulf of Finland, denied the occupation of Finland. The swift advance of Soviet Armed Forces prompted the citizens of the previously Soviet-occupied Baltic States, Polish Home Army and Western Ukrainian insurgents to establish independence ahead of a looming re-occupation, rushing 70,000 Estonians, 150,000 Latvians, 50,000 Lithuanians and hundreds of thousands of Western Ukrainian insurgents to join the German side against the Soviets. As the result, the Soviet Armed Forces captured Estonia from the constitutional government, and Western Ukraine from a shadow government. Several uprisings against the German rule were initiated in Poland, with the biggest of them in Warsaw put down by the Germans, due to the surprise Soviet stance in the outskirts of the city." Erikupoeg (talk) 11:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Any comment? Erikupoeg (talk) 13:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Polish/Soviet duplication of war dead

The article in Lusskie Poteri is the one by Mihalev on pages 82-95. The key point is that the Polish and Soviets are both counting the losses in the annexed territories, the Soviets also include the Baltic states and Romanian(Besserabia/Bukivina) war dead in the total of 26.6 million( 25.3 million plus 1.3 million increase in infant mortality). On page 83 Mihalev says the Soviet figures include 10 million in the annexed Polish regions. The annexed Polish territory in 1939 population was 13 million, in 1945 the Soviets gave Poland back territory with 1.4 million, and 1.6 million Polish citizens were allowed to leave in USSR in 1945. The Soviet figures are adjusted only for population transfers, they do not take into account that the Polish figures also include an estimate of war dead for the annexed territory. In the footnote on Poland the sources cited K. Kersten and T. Piotrowski estimate Polish losses in the annexed territory at 2.5 million, these losses are also included in the Soviet figure. To avoid a duplication we must subtract them from the Soviet total, along with the Baltic states that have a separate line. --Woogie10w (talk) 10:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at page 126 of Ludskie Poteri, the Russians claim 64,000 Estonians were victims of premediated German war crimes. The Russians have added insult to injury by including victims of Stalin along with victims of the Nazis--Woogie10w (talk) 10:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunatelly, I don't have this book before me right now, so, please, explain me what did you mean. Are they old Stalin time data, or these are the data of contemporary research? This is Soviet era data, there is no contemporary research in Russia, that I am aware of, on Soviet civilian losses that would breakout the victims of Hitler and Stalin. I cited the data on Estonia to point out the potential problems with Soviet and modern day Russian statistics. Ludskie Poteri, published by the Russian Academy of Science, claims 7,420,135 Soviet civilians were victims of Nazi premediated murder, including 64,000 Estonian civilians. On Wikipedia I cannot engage in original research or offer my own judgements, I can only cite the sources and allow the readers to form their own opinions. Based on our knowledge of Estonian losses detailed in this excellant report [5], it is obvious that the Soviet/Russian data includes victims of Stalin as well as Hitler. Let me know if you need additional data, I will gladly take the time to answer you --Woogie10w (talk) 22:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Soviet casualty figures have three points that need to be take into account when assessing losses in WW2.

1- The official figure of 8,668,400 total military dead includes the following. A. Confirmed deaths in battle and deaths due to non combat causes- 6,885,100. B. Estimated missing in action 500,000. C. The balance of 1,283,000 are deaths of POWs. This data is from Krivosheev. The western estimates of POW dead are around 3 million. Which brings the total losses to 10.5 million.

2- The Russian figure for total war dead based on the Russian Academy of Science report of Andreev estimated a total demographic loss of 26.6 million from 1941-45. This figure includes an estimated 2.5 million deaths in Polish territory that was occupied by the USSR in 1939 and ceded by treaty to the USSR in August 1945. The Polish also include these deaths with their war dead. To avoid a duplication these losses must appear with the USSR or Poland, but not in both countries. Western historians have always counted these losses with Poland. The Russians make an adjustment in their population only for net population transfers, and do not take adjust their figures for the fact that Polish are also counting the losses in the annexed territories.

3- The Russian figure of 26.6 million war dead is a demographic loss, deaths that occurred in excess of the pre war level. The figure includes an estimated 3.0 million deaths in the territory not occupied by the Germans. Contemporary Russian sources place the entire blame for these losses on Germany, repression by the Soviets is not considered as a component of the war losses of 26.6 million .
--Woogie10w (talk) 10:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments on

1. 1. Do I understand correct that the real number of military losses is in between 8,600,000 and 10,500,000?
2. 2. Therefore, to be consistent, should we assume the Soviet total losses were ~23,600,000?
3. 3. Generally, such a blame looks rather reasonable, because NKVD pressure was known to be lower during the war, executions of deserters (or those who was considered deserter) was a direct consequence of the war, increased mortality in Gulag camps was generally due to a food shortage (direct consequence of the war), increased mortality among refugees, obviously, must be attributed to Nazis and direct mortality of civilians in Eastern regions was partially a result of deterioration of a health system (a direct consequence of the war also). That is obvious.
   One statement is not correct: Soviet leadership is responsible for too high military losses. That is another story, however.
   Thank you very much for your data and for your explanations.
   Sineserely yours,
   --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Nr.1 Confirmed dead per Krivosheev are 6.9 million, MIA per Krivosheev are 500,000 and POW deaths per every historian in the west are about 3 million. Then total military war dead are 10.4 million, not 8.7 million.

Nr.2 If the Polish are also counting 2.5 million in the annexed territories, we cannot include them again in the Soviet total. That applies also to the Baltic states & Rumanian Besserabia/Bukovina.

Nr. 3 The victims of Stalin are an unknown quanity, despite all the research by Zemeskov and others.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you have the Krivosheev book?--Woogie10w (talk) 21:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see this book, the author is a critic of Krivosheev. I know of it from the Axis History Forum.

Title: Liudskie poteri v Velikoi Otechestvennoi voine 1941-1945 gg: statisticheskoe issledovanie Author: S N Mikhalev Year: 2000 ISBN-10: 5-85981-082-2 / 5859810822 Woogie10w (talk) 22:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Nr. 1. That is what I mean: 8.7 according to Russian and 10.4 according to Western sources. Do I understand correct that no reliable sources give greater numbers?

Nr. 2. Ok.

Nr. 3. The term victim is too vague. Actually, the whole population of Soviet Union, Europe and Asia are indirect Stalin's victims. However, it is too complex to describe it with numbers. Zemskov's type data are something more concrete: it just tells how many prisoners were in Gulags, what was the amount of convicted, sentenced, executed. Of course, that is just a starting point for further research and speculations, however, it seems to be a reliable starting point.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

A suggestion

I think our recent discussion at my talk page was unproductive and went in wrong direction. Could you please use talk pages of articles to discuss WP content? If you have any specific complaints about my conduct, there are other forums for that. Thank you.Biophys (talk) 17:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. I started to use your page because you placed your response on my post there. If you have a feeling there is not an optimal place for that type discussion, feel free to remove it, as well as this section, from your page. However, arbitrary removal of separate parts of discussion doesn't seem correct. Especially for a person fighting for a speech freedom. Rebyata, davayte zhit' druzhno... :-)

Best regards --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I got your message. Sure, Rebyata, davayte zhit' druzhno.... I simply feel that discussion started by ellol was completely unproductive. As about Zemskov, let's discuss this and other similar questions at articles talk pages if needed.Biophys (talk) 18:52, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

That link to the revised Krivosheev book is very interesting, this edition has a lot of data that was not in the 1992 edition. The section in civilian losses has data that also appears in Ludskie Poteri from 1995. He explains clearly how that figure of 26.6 million war dead was dervived. Thanks agiain for the link, I really appreciate your posting it. I must go to sleep. Regards--Woogie10w (talk) 01:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi, after a nights rest I started to review the revised Krivosheev book, the data on WW1 is new to me and very interesting. Regarding WW2 Soviet losses, I would like to hear your opinion. If we post to Wikipedia the official figure of 8.7 million war dead, the total POW loss becoms 1.3 million, this does not agree with the standard view in the west that 2.5-3.0 million Soviet POW perished in German hands. Personally I side with Krivosheev and the historians in Russia that believe that only 4.0 million soldiers were captured by the Germans, the remaining 1.7 million being civilians, even though they were conscripted reservists. They were not part of military formations. I would like to hear your opinion on this topic. Here is a link to article by Krivosheev, in which he answers his critics [6], I was suprised when he wrote that the record keeping system is in a bad state, men listed as war dead being alive!--Woogie10w (talk) 19:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As you see, that work looks like a very detailed thorough study, so we have to be respectful towards it. At least, I would like to read it, along with its critiques, again before telling anything. I'll let you know when I am ready for further discussion.
As regards to the record keeping system, you can check it by yourself. Go to http://www.obd-memorial.ru/Memorial/. This online database contains about 20,000,000 records about KIA and MIA Soviets (military only). It is not complete and the work is still in progress. It is still rather confusing, because some persons are sometimes mentioned several times. That is understandable, because different type records form different sources were combined together. If you enter any non abundant Russian name there you probably find several persons with identical first and second names, birth and death dates. Sometimes the date of the death may differ by 1-2 days, but, if the place coincides both records seem to relate to the same person mentioned twice. As I already mentioned, I checked this database by myself. I entered my grandfather's name and the name of my friend's grandfather. Both of them were officially MIA, however, I couldn't find their names in this data base. My short poll among several persons whose ancestors fought during WWII gave the following results: a majority (not overwhelming) was able to find their names in this data base. Others (similar to me) didn't find their names there. One person did find his grandfather's name, although in in reality he survived (he simply was severely wounded). Therefore, some persons were mentioned several times, some weren't mentioned at all and some survived peoples could be there also. I conclude, in its present state this database neither contradict nor confirms the official number of 8.5 million.
However, it is necessary to take into account that the number of military losses wasn't derived from that database. I don't think, for instance, my grandfather was unaccounted, because my mother was getting a monthly allowance until she attained her majority. You agree such a payment requires some legal ground.
All the best --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to answer me. I became aware of the controversy in Russia over Krivosheev’s data on the Axis History Forum Axis History Forum. This blog has a number of Russian members who are knowledgeable, I am sure you will find it of interest. We have similar problems with military records in the US. My fathers WW2 records were destroyed in the St, Louis fire of 1973 [7]. My dad was with the 342nd Ordnance Depot Co, and saw action in Normandy, Aachen and the Battle of the Bulge. When he died in 1975 he was receiving the maximum pension (100%), for war related wounds. On my mothers side of the family the Revolutionary War records of my GGG grandfather were lost in the Burning of Washington, the records were reconstructed later from reports in the state of Virginia. He was stationed at Fort Pitt (Pennsylvania) with the 13th Virginia Regiment--Woogie10w (talk) 22:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

WWII - Structure

Do you have a problem with me moving your post from my talk page to the article talk page?

As it happens I am formally from a former Soviet republic, but, I see myself as a historian first. Having said that, my approach is very logical. An article is no different to any construction, albeit its a a data-made one. What happens with structures is that they are built around frameworks, and with clearly defined parameters. In the case of the World War II article that framework, given the subject is a conflict, are the theatres of conflict. The choice is not mine, but of the actual participants in a global conflict. They are primarily based on considerations of logistics as combat operations anywhere need resources. The terminology I propose is also nothing new since this is a military history article, and military history as nay discipline, has its own language which is necessarily, well, military.

I also understand what you mean about three types of people. However, the issue here is history. If something is unsourced it can be deleted. Quite frankly I don't care much for ethnic passions. The inclusion of Estonian conscripts in the auricle an excellent example of irrelevant minor detail that seems overwhelmingly important to the undoubtedly Estonian editor. So, for me the two words that define writing history articles of such global reach are context and perspective, and not consensus.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Manners will get you nowhere even if you try. Civility in Wikipedia is simply misused to advance one's point of view despite facts or good arguments. I have been blocked several times for contrived claims of incivility after trying for some time get the other editors to see facts, or even acknowledge sources IN THE ARTICLE. It is simply futile.

Writing military history articles, as any article, demands of the editor to remain relevant to the subject. The core issue here is level of detail (here taken in the literal context of graphics). You can find this briefly mentioned here [8] where it says

Without knowing who it is you are writing for, it is easy to be irrelevant. Knowledge of the target audience allows the writer to stay firmly "on message."

Your job as a technical writer is to serve others. You are a conduit for information. You have to transfer what is in the heads of the creators of the product, into the heads of the people using the product.

The language, organization, and level of detail you use, depends on your reader. Your number one task is to understand what they actually need to know, and how they're likely to best find that information when they need it in their life.

So the question becomes, is the average English-speaking reader, when reading about a summary of the Second World War, be interested in the effect 20,000 Estonian conscripts had on the outcome?

However, it goes beyond this. If these Estonians are included, why not other minority participants? Why are the far more numerous Scots not explicitly mentioned although they had participated also? There was an entire division (51st) sacrificed in France in 1940, never mind other units. What about the tens of thousands of Kazakhs? The French Army had far more North Africans serving in regular divisions, so what about them? Shouldn't EVERYONE get a mention? I am for example far more concerned about the lack of mention of the contribution to the war made by women, than I ma by Estonian conscripts, and they constituted (on all fronts) hundreds of thousands, particularly in resistance movements.

The first order of the day is to define the criteria for what is to be mentioned in the article. I don't mind consensus building there, but all need to understand the application of styles of rhetoric in the article and that in exposing the detail, one needs to classify "groups of objects or ideas according to a common topic in detail". In effect the article needs to be about the sub-categories in the Category:World War II, and that is another story.

Despite my Wikipedia record, I am neither unreasonable nor customarily rude. I do have a personality trait that I recently saw mentioned in a book about infantry. See page 4 of "House to house" by David Bellavia [9]. I have a genetic predisposition for low bullshit tolerance. There is no cure :) I have had mates in the infantry in my younger years, and strongly associate with their creed of the team is #1 because with no armour (aka "wikinetworking") of range (aka "administrative privileges") to protect them, so they rely on sheer skill (editing) and relying on each other and on their tools of trade (sources), in this case the ability to find references to the subject matter of the article. Cheers--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Paul, being polite will simply get you a month's worth of fruitless discussion.

"Working slowly" as you put it is a really bad approach, which is also contrary to the very name of Wikipedia.

Have you ever seen a building built with no plans or foundation laying? Its not just not done, its dangerous. However, you are welcome to go and try. I'm not sure you will do better with Estonian editors than I had experienced with Rumanians, Poles, or members of what was formerly Yugoslavia. I do not enjoy wasting my time in talkfests. Life is far too short for that--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Re "going global": delete A3 & F20 & copy the others as posted, pending any changes needed, with reference my comments on them, & any other issues raised. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 04:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The War Becomes Global

Will reply tomorrow--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 12:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for late reply Paul, but I have been very busy lately.

Looking again at the text, I still do not like the approach. First 6 months on the Eastern Front involved fighting and loss of territory equivalent to three times those of France. If it was an article about German invasion of the United States, would you start with the amphibious landings on the Atlantic coast and pick up the story again somewhere in Kansas?

For all intents and purposes a reference article is not like a book summary but a technical document. As far as I'm concerned my approach suggested earlier where military, diplomatic, economic and social events are graded to put them into perspective is the correct approach. In any case, I'm unable to contribute now, but will return in a week I think.

I don't know what your perspective is, but as far as I'm concerned the war was won, at least in Europe, on the Eastern Front, and the article must reflect this. I think the recently published book The myth of the Eastern Front (Cambridge University Press) would be good guide for this task.

Cheers--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Do I understand you correct that your proposal is to extend Eastern Front story? Of cource, those 6 month were a very important, probably, a key point of the war, the moment the tide had started to turn (in contrast to the current section name). Had Hitler reach the A-A line as he planned, the Germany would become invinsible, and, judging by the NYT paper I cited, in 1941 many Americans realized that very well. To my opinion, the only reasonable approach to describe WWII is to focus on the battlefield where two third of Allied and Axis soldiers (not only European, but total) were killed, i.e. Eastern Front, because WWII was mostly and primarily the war between the USSR and Germany.
However, I foresee a serious problem if we try to do so. The present public opinion (in contrast to the attitude during the war and the post war period) has been formed in such a way that people simply refuse to believe the article written in that manner. Folks would prefer to trust a bullshit like that I cited on the talk page than to accept the truth about WWII. Because this truth is couner-intuitive and uncomfortable. As a result, even if we will manage to convince other editors and our editing will not be reverted, the reader's opinion about this article will be:"I was told that it is impossible to trust Wikipedia, and now I made sure that's the case".

My second point is that the article is written in such a way that it pays not enough attention to the battles at all, whereas diplomatical and humanitarian aspects are overemphasized. If we extend Eastern Front, we have to tell more about the battle of France, for instance (to my opinion, it deserves that), although I am not sure we need to tell about evrything in details. My proposal is to write the article in such a manner that urges reader to wisit appropriate dauther article.
Anyway, am am waiting for your return and we will continue. Cheers, --Paul Siebert (talk) 05:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The answer to the "people simply refuse to believe the article written in that manner" is to cite sources

The answer to the second point is to use a skeletal structure first. I have now realised that if I go far enough into Oberiko's review, his method was not methodical at all.

Balance can not be achieved without a methodical approach.

Quite simply what is needed is a thematic matrix, created in a spreadsheet.

There were essentially five theatres of war (West to East): The Atlantic, Western Europe (and the Med/North Africa)), Eastern Europe (and Scandinavia), Western Asia (inc. South-Western), and the Pacific (inc. China by virtue of Japan being in the Pacific).

Each theatre experienced diplomatic, economic and military strategic milestones.

A strategic milestone is a diplomatic decision (agreement, alliance, protocol, etc.), economic effort (production, budgets, denial of raw resources, etc.) or military event (campaign, strategic occupation, effect on national morale through non-strategic victory or defeat) that significantly affected the theatre.

The article needs to be taken apart, and its parts deposited in the theatre columns by quarter because a quarter is a strategic period of activity governed by seasons which affect economics and military activity if not diplomacy. First quarter is the 3rd quarter of 1939 and final preparations for invasion of Poland. Last quarter is the 2nd quarter of 1945; 24 quarters in all.

Once this is done, the less significant decisions, efforts and events can be weeded out.

There will be consequences that will be disputed. For example the Commonwealth North African Campaign was conducted by a "short" army against 4-5 full strength Axis divisions. After Barbarossa it is dwarfed in magnitude, and barely mattered despite being seen as strategically important for the UK. It would have been strategically important had German or UK knew of the oil deposits in Saudi Arabia, alas...

After all theatres are completed, get references for each sentence

Counting quarters per theatre multiplied by the three sectors of interest, there should be a minimum of 360 sentences. Some sectors will be missing a sentence here and there, and in some two sentences will be required, so the total will be between in the 350-400 sentence region.

There are currently 120-odd paragraphs, which is about 17 paragraphs per year, with about 840 sentences, counting section headings and picture captions. There is therefore a way to reduce the size and increase the accuracy of coverage if a systematic approach is used. Conducting a revision as you are doing it now will not significantly achieve anything different to Oberiko's version, and still leave the article open to revisions of the irrelevant type. I would suggest that the methodology be included into the article, or a separate article be included under the historiography of Second World War category--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Citing sources will not help, because there are different sources telling mutually contradicting things. I notice a considerable shift towards "western-centric" point of view, for instance. And your problem is that you focus on logical arguments, although for majority people psychology is more importany factor.

The answer to sceletal structure is that some periods of the war, as well as some theatres, were much more important than others. For example, I would say, in 1941 the Western theatre simply ceased to exist (as compared with Eastern Front), and re-appeared in 1944 only, etc. Eastern Front, as well as Pacific< appeared in 1941, so the major events of the war took place in the West before that time. I also would disagree with combining China with Pacific.
I conclude, your approach is too formal (if I understood it correct).--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

List of battles by casualties

I didn't destroy it for formal reasons. Most of it was unsourced. I put a template on it calling for sources. This template was there for several months, however, nothing got sourced. Afterwards I removed all unsourced material. It is possible to use the existing sourced data in wikipedia and their refs to make this a proper list, but I have not yet been able under my time constraints. The reason I deleted the unsourced stuff is that I could bring the growth of unsourced material to no halt. So cutting it from the start and making it grow with sources only was the best approach. Also, this is a list informing people about numbers and the problem was that they were mostly wrong, sometinmes listing only POW, deads or a mixture. Greetings Wandalstouring (talk) 09:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

crimes against that page

Wandalstouring carried out acts of vandalism upon that fatefull page. And even he knows he did it. It is as you said imposible to so called properly source the page. Wandalstouring deleted months posibly even years of hard work. Thats why he should be punished for his actions. Thats why I sent the warning and removed the imprperly plassed template. It was plassed there without just cause and out of false acusations. The people of Wikipedia do not deserve such act of vandalism against us. sincerly--Dt23 (talk) 16:30, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussion involving your edits

Here is a discussion involving your edits. Wandalstouring (talk) 17:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for back up . Im the guy who posted the complaint against User:Wandalstouring Good thing we are on the same side on this. I have looking for guy whose ben making those disruptive edits based on bogus "sourcing" for the past week. Thanks for support on the issue--Dt23 (talk) 18:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

European Theatre of World War II article

Hi Paul. You seem to have good intentions about fixing the Second World War articles, but be warned, Wikipedia, and the Military History Project participants are not into production of quality articles. Quality is an undefined value in Wikipedia. For the most part Wikipedia seems to have evolved into a social network more concerned with achieving compromises at the expense of quality, and reflecting points of view of those with administrative rights to block editors who show dissatisfaction with lack of discussion and citation of facts that define quality (to me). Before you embark on editing Second World War articles be aware that there are lots of editors with agendas other than military history in Wikipedia, and that what will happen in all likelihood is that you will find yourself frustrated, or abandoning the project.

However, should you choose to proceed...below is my advice.

Because most people who contribute to Wikipedia are not professional editors, but "editors" by Wikipedia definition, they do not understand the process or project management of large areas of knowledge, such as the Second World War. When you look at the collective subject-area in Wikipedia, it amounts to hundreds of articles, with thousands yet to be written. Those that are in existence are usually badly referenced, and more often than not uncited. There are some popular subjects, but, what the Military History Project has lacked is a "global" management of the Second World War article creation and editing as a whole. Regardless of the existence of the "task force" no substantial concerted effort to coordinate the work was, or is undertaken. To illustrate, when I tried to rationalise the categorisation of articles into four main areas of sociology, economics, diplomacy and military articles, I met with criticism and was told to stop changing categories although they made little sense and articles were being deposited with no sense or order. And this, from Project administrators.

The approach to large subject-area article editing has been commented on elsewhere, but in the European Theatre of World War II, as with all articles that are used for summary, the content should reflect the contents of the Category:World War II European theatre. Moreover, it would be nice if the category name matched the main article name.

As you see in the category, there is some confusion as to what a "theatre of war" is.

• World War II Eastern European Theatre (20)
• World War II Mediterranean Theatre (5)
• Military history of France during World War II (5)
• Military history of the United Kingdom during World War II (9)
• Naval battles and operations of World War II (European theatre) (3)

My preference is to not do things "by half", plan, and approach a project by structuring work that needs to be done.
I would suggest that that the article can in fact be renamed World War II in Europe as the main article for the Category:World War II in Europe, and then divide it into theatres as per categories.

These need to be "straightened out" as follows (in chronological order)

• World War II Eastern European Theatre (20) -> Category:Eastern Front (World War II) (there was never an Eastern European Theatre either for Germany, Soviet Union or the Western Allies that I know of)

Other theatres need to be

• World War II Mediterranean Theatre (5) -> move to Category:Mediterranean Theatre in World War II
• Category:Northern European Theatre of World War II
• Category:Western European Theatre in World War II -> move to Category:World War II in Europe
• Category:Southern European Theatre of World War II
• Category:Eastern Atlantic Theatre of World War II

World War II Balkans Campaign (0) rename to Category:Balkans Campaign (1941) -> move to Category:Southern European Theatre of World War II

Battle of the Mediterranean (0) -> move to Category:Naval Campaigns of World War II in -> Category:Mediterranean naval campaigns of World War II in ->Category:Mediterranean Theatre in World War II

Italian Campaign (2) -> move to Category:Southern European campaigns of World War II in Category:Southern European Theatre of World War II

North African Campaign (3) rename to Category:North African Campaign (World War II) -> move to Category:Mediterranean Theatre in World War II

World War II Mediterranean shipwrecks (0) rename Category:Naval loses in the Mediterranean (World War II) (This should be in category Category:Naval loses in World War II

Military history of France during World War II (5) -> move to Category:Western European Theatre in World War II

Military history of the United Kingdom during World War II (9) -> move to Category:Western European Theatre in World War II

Battles and operations of the Eastern Front of World War II (2) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Continuation War (1) -> move to Category:Northern European campaigns of World War II in Category:Northern European Theatre of World War II

Military history of Czechoslovakia during World War II (3) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Eastern European World War II resistance movements (4) rename to Category:Resistance movements on the Eastern Front (World War II) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Military history of Albania during World War II (0) -> move to Category:Southern European Theatre of World War II

Military history of Belarus during World War II (0) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Military history of Bulgaria during World War II (1) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Military history of Estonia during World War II (0) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Military history of Finland during World War II (3) -> move to Category:Northern European campaigns of World War II

Military history of Latvia during World War II (0) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Military history of Lithuania during World War II (0) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Military history of Poland during World War II (6) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Military history of the Soviet Union during World War II (6) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Military operations involving Polish resistance during World War II (1) rename Category:Polish resistance during World War II -> move to Category:Resistance movements on the Eastern Front (World War II) (expect lots of opposition form Polish editors, but the bottom line is that Polish military ceased to exist in 1939)

Polish September Campaign (1) -> move to Category:Campaigns of the Eastern Front (World War II)

Romania during World War II (2) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Soviet-German War (2) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

Warsaw Uprising (1) -> move to Category:Operations of the Eastern Front (World War II)

World War II Balkans Campaign (0) rename to Category:Balkan Campaigns of World War II (there should be three: 1940-41 (in the Category:Mediterranean Theatre in World War II, 1941-44 (partisan) Category:Campaigns of the Eastern Front (World War II), and 1944-45 Category:Campaigns of the Eastern Front (World War II)) You can expect lots of nationalistic opposition in renaming the Balkans campaign, and -> move to Category:Campaigns of the Eastern Front (World War II)

Yugoslavia during World War II (3) -> move to Category:Eastern Front (World War II)

(create) Category:European naval campaigns of World War II (As opposed to Asian or Indian) (create) Category:Northern naval campaigns of World War II (create) Category:Atlantic naval campaigns of World War II (create) Category:Mediterranean naval campaigns of World War II (create) Category:Black Sea naval campaigns of World War II (create) Category:Baltic naval campaigns of World War II

• Naval battles and operations of World War II (European theatre) (3) -> move to Category:Mediterranean naval campaigns of World War II

Malta Convoys (0) -> move to Category:Mediterranean naval operations of World War II

Battle of the Mediterranean (0) -> move to Category:Mediterranean naval battles of World War II

Operation Neptune (0) -> move to Category:Atlantic naval operations of World War II in the Category:Atlantic naval campaigns of World War II

• World War II Western European Theatre (6) rename to Category:Western European Theatre of World War II

Western European Campaign (1944-1945) (5) -> move to Category:Western European campaigns of World War II

Battle of Britain (2) -> rename to Category:Western European aerial campaigns of World War II in Category:European aerial campaigns of World War II in Category:Aerial campaigns of World War II

Battle of France (0) -> rename to Category:Battle of France (1940) -> move to Category:Western European campaigns of World War II

World War II British Commando raids (0) -> rename to Category:British special operations of World War II and -> move to Category:Military history of the United Kingdom during World War II and Category:Special operations of World War II

Norwegian Campaign (0) -> rename to Category:Norwegian Campaign (1940) -> move to

World War II strategic bombing (3) -> rename to Category:Strategic bombing World War II in Category:Aerial campaigns of World War II

Of course this article deals with the military aspects only. Societies and diplomatic activity were not part of military theatres, and economies were national, international, but yet a part of the war efforts. Still...

Rather than the current structure

1. Preceding events
2. Outbreak of war in Europe
3. Germany assumes dominance in northern Europe
4. War comes to the west
5. The war in the air
6. The Mediterranean and Balkans
7. The Eastern Front
8. Allied invasion of Italy
9. Allied invasion of occupied France
10. End of the war in Europe

You would have

1. Situation in Central Europe
2. Eastern Front - Poland
3. Northern naval campaign 1940
4. Northern European Theatre - Norway
5. Western European Theatre - France
6. Western European aerial campaigns - Britain
7. Mediterranean naval campaign 1939-42
8. Atlantic naval campaign 1939-1942
9. Baltic naval campaign 1940-41
10. Western European Theatre - Resistance movements 1941-1944
11. Mediterranean Theatre - North Africa
12. Southern European Theatre - Balkans
13. The Eastern Front - Soviet Union
14. Black Sea naval campaign 1941-42
15. Northern naval campaign 1941-43
16. Western European aerial campaigns - Strategic bombing
17. The Eastern Front - Partisans 1941 - 1944
18. The Eastern Front - Northern Russia
19. The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Kuban
20. The Eastern Front - Caucasus
21. Mediterranean naval campaign 1942-44
22. The Eastern Front - Southern Russia
23. Atlantic naval campaign 1943-45
24. The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Kursk
25. Mediterranean Theatre - Tunis
26. The Eastern Front - Eastern Ukraine
27. Black Sea naval campaign 1943-44
28. Mediterranean aerial campaigns - Strategic bombing
29. The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Dnepr
30. Southern European Theatre - Italy
31. The Eastern Front - Western Ukraine
32. Northern European Theatre - Finland
33. Northern naval campaign 1944
34. Baltic naval campaign 1941-45
35. The Eastern Front - The Baltic
36. The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Lithuania
37. Western European aerial campaigns - France
38. Western European Theatre - France
39. The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Belorussia
40. The Eastern Front - Belorussia
41. The Eastern Front - Poland and Rumania
42. Southern European Theatre - France
43. The Eastern Front - Bulgaria and Yugoslavia
44. Western European Theatre - Belgium and Germany
45. The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Germany
46. The Eastern Front - Germany
47. The Eastern Front - Hungary and Austria
48. End of the war in Europe

So, what do you think?--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 06:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I think, your and my vision of the WWII history coincide almost completely. The difference is in a strategy of data representation. Since the article is for comparatively superficial readers, it must be a relatively simple and captivating reading. Therefore, we need to follow you plan although a breakup of the text should be less frightening.
Here are some comments:

Baltic naval campaign 1940-41 What concretely do you mean?

There were German, British and Soviet naval operations in the Baltic during this period--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Western European Theatre - Resistance movements 1941-1944 In actuality, major real resistance (besides occupied Soviet territories) was concentrated in Yugoslavia and Poland. The western resistance was generally a post-war myth.

You will note that the Eastern Front is called "partisan" and not "resistance". It can not be dismissed that there was resistance in Western Europe to German occupation, even if not in the form of extensive combat partisan formations. The rest of the myth also can be addressed here--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - Soviet Union too much to fit into a single section

Yes, sorry I forgot to add 1941--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Black Sea naval campaign 1941-42 too small for a single section: besides Soviet Black Sea fleet there were almost no other fleets there. Or you include siege of Sevastopol there?

You are wrong on this. Kriegsmarine and the Rumanian navies in particular conducted a campaign which also included Italian fleet units. The Soviet naval defensive operations, the evacuations from Odessa and Sevastopol, and their defences all contribute to what is a naval campaign--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Western European aerial campaigns - Strategic bombing move closer to the end

It begun in 1941 by the RAF, although mostly as a morale-building measure--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - Partisans 1941 - 1944 move closer to Kursk

Again, the Polish partisans begun to operate more effectively after British started to supply the more organised Home Army--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - Northern Russia which period? What concretely: Murmansk? Leningrad?

This should say 1941-1943 to the partial relief of the siege of Leningrad--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Kuban Why separate from the next section?

This is aerial, a massive air campaign that easily equalled in numbers of aircraft to the Battle of Britain and lasted longer, but is virtually unknown in the West. Sorry, I put these in wrong order because was adding aerial operations after and typed in wrong place. The Kuban aerial campaign was 1943--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - Caucasus

1942--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - Southern Russia Stalingrad?

yes, but of course it was a massive strategic campaign for Germany, and not just the "battle" of Stalingrad (in general "battle" is used as a weasel word in the West to belittle the scale of warfare on the Eastern Front)--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Kursk aeral AND Kursk, or aeral OF Kursk?

I have not decided, but I think the aerial campaign begun long before "Kursk"--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - Eastern Ukraine Kharkov?

Severla strategic operations in advance to Dnepr line, so including Kharkov. In Western "popular" history of the Eastern Front focus on cities negates what happened outside these operations. The "third" Kharkov was in fact a massive frontal offensive of course--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Black Sea naval campaign 1943-44 +Recapture of Sevastopol?

and Crimea, and operations on the Black Sea coast and into the mouth of Danube--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Mediterranean aerial campaigns - Strategic bombing Were there any strategic targets there?

The campaign was conducted from North Africa against Italian and Rumanian navies, later in support of invasions of Sicily and Italy, and later still from Italian bases against Germany and Rumanian oilfields--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Dnepr Dnieper descent + Battle of Dnieper/breakage of Eastern Wall?

This is largely for liberation of Western Ukraine--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - Western Ukraine Lvov-Sandomierz?

Yes, and the initial penetration into Poland and Rumania and Czechoslovakia--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Northern European Theatre - Finland + Estonia

Oh yes, mustn't forget ESTONIA! No, Northern Theatre included Finland and Norway--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Baltic naval campaign 1941-45 Do you have something to tell?

Actually this is 1942-1945, and includes mining in the Gulf of Finland, German logistics and their interdiction, Naval operations during the Leningrad siege and later Soviet offensive operations in support of ground offensives--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - The Baltic so you separate Eastern Front from Northern theatre?

Yes, I do. The events of combat against Finland were only barely connected with the Eastern Front during the siege of Leningrad, but refusal by the Fins to advance effectively made their front quite separate from the German efforts. Soviet offensives against Finland were only affected when Bagration was planned, but Soviet operations in Norway were entirely separate from the operations in the west. The proof is in the Leningrad Front which continued to exist to the end of the war although the other Fronts were all renamed and were well into Germany--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Lithuania Kurland pocket?

This encompasses operations from after the Leningrad offensive to Bagration--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Western European aerial campaigns - France Strategic bombing?

This is the tactical air support in support of Normandy, the airborne operations, and the subsequent campaign against German logistics....and strategic bombing--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Belorussia Don't think we need to separate from the next one:

Ok, maybe you are right, but it does not really get coverage all that well--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - Belorussia

The Eastern Front aerial campaigns - Germany Don't think we need to separate from the next one:

Same as for Belorussia. Many seem to forget that Luftwaffe flew thousands of aircraft to the last few weeks of the war--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Eastern Front - Germany

The Eastern Front - Hungary and Austria Czechoslovakia?

Well, Slovakia really--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

End of the war in Europe Or it goes here?
I also think you missed Eastern Prussia/Konigsberg and battle of Smolensk (1943). Where Leningrad goes?
I have no comments on the rest items, although generally I think such a detailed division is redundant.

Prussia/Kongsberg goes into The Eastern Front - Poland and Rumania

Redundant? My understanding of a theatre and a campaign may be somewhat different. Most Western authors simply ignore wider contexts of some well known large city-named operations. A campaign is at least 3 months long, and fighting went on everywhere outside of the few well known "battles". However, the list I suggested can be somewhat trimmed (maybe).

Anyway, we have to start and see how it looks like.
As regards to the WWII article, I would like to introduce already edited section because the present version is too bad. Could you look again at the whole section on the WWII talk page and let me know if it can be put into the article for a while?
--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry Paul, but I have decided not to contribute to the WWII article unless there is a consensus to adopt a more professional (and I don't mean "civil") approach by all contributing editors. What makes me a bit regretful is that I had not spoken up before, and did not look into the methodology used by Oberiko before. I have lots of other stuff to contribute, so not short on editing needs. However, if the Project coordinators want things done properly, they need to commit to something more viable than the current concept which is tantamount to plastering over the "cracks".

I think this professional approach would include, in the fist instance, creation of article foundation by creating a relationship between the Category:World War II. This in turn would lead to creating an article structure in the same way a building is built in a skeletal form, and only later will the rest of the article be compiled. In doing so the contents of the WWII article need to be correlated to the contents of other articles in the category, and this would involve a team effort the like of which I have not seen so far unfortunately. I also want to see a reasonably senior administrator present on the project of WWII editing who can resolve nationalistic conflicts before I get blocked for incivility because I do intend to submit to Wikipedia behavioural modification which is why I have stopped actively contributing to the Eastern Front article area--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Red flag over Berlin

Sorry, I merely commented on the two images based on what I could see in the photos. It appears that these were taken by Yevgeny Khaldei, and presumably he was an employee of the Soviet government, and probably a soldier. Soviet/Russian copyrights have been changing lately, and I don't know the current status of these things.

If the image turns out to be copyrighted, then it is probably usable under fair use to illustrate particular articles only.

Good luck. —Michael Z. 2008-09-22 18:02 z

World War II article

Hi Paul, In my view it's probably best to keep discussions of the content of very high profile articles such as this to the article's talk page so that interested editors (eg, those who've watch-listed the article) see it. Discussing article content in detail on user talk pages carries the risk that the text you develop there isn't supported by other editors. That's just my view though! Nick Dowling (talk) 10:02, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Finland

A thing off the discussion on WWII talk page. You said: "It seems to me that additional emphasis can be done on the difference between the resistance of the Finns and the Romanians (the former did that without any appreciable German help, by the way)." Without the German resistance in Narva, the Finns wouldn't last half a month under the Soviet amphibious and air attacks from Tallinn 83 km from Helsinki. Mannerheim was well aware of that and regularly checked the situation in Narva. So was Stalin, who kept enormous pressure at Narva and Tannenberg Line for seven and a half months.--Erikupoeg (talk) 18:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

That is why I think it makes sense to modify the last sentence of the previous section ("The subsequent Soviet offensive towards the Baltic ports was halted at the Estonian border for 8 months by the German Army Group North.") adding that that resistance hampered subsequent Soviet offensive operations in the Baltic region. Your version is welcome.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Garbage collection

In fact, I actually had experienced the approach in real life. Some 10 years ago, the municipal authorities of my home city began introducing household water meters to keep track of water usage on a more individual level. As the process of installing one was somewhat expensive (yes, the residents had to pay for it), some households had failed to comply and continued to rely on present block-wide counters (installation was strongly encouraged, but voluntary). Meanwhile, the policy has had some unexpected backlash - the central water output did not coincide with the usage reported by the residential meters, sometimes by a vast amount (the old Soviet waterworks had fallen into severe disrepair by that time and were leaking all over the city). But somebody had to pay for all that water. So, a quick solution was found: the entire block-wide discrepancy was charged to those residents who didn't have a residential counter installed, sometimes resulting in elderly pensioners receiving bills for the amount of water normally spent at an average car wash.

Sorry for littering your talk page with offtopic, but it was quite surprising to discover such a cheap ripoff tactic being used to juggle human lives in an ostensibly serious historical work. --Illythr (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Good example. BTW, did I understand you correct that you, in actuality, don't blame me in any negative connotations when I used words "garbage" and "human losses" in the same sentence (because your note on the talk page can be understood in who ways)...--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:32, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

No, you merely came up with an apt (if somewhat blunt) way of describing it. In fact, when exact data is unavailable, rough estimations do need to be based on something are acceptable. It's just that the way it is done in the article - employing a method that would maximize enemy losses to create the "invincible German armies vs an never-ending Red Flood" impression, concluding that the Germans have left by themselves after getting tired of slaughtering Russians (typically forgetting about Ukrainians, Belorussians and many other nations who were there as well) - is what I find disgruntling in this version of history (if that is indeed the aim of the author, and not a misinterpretation of his words).

Still, it's probably best to avoid such parallels, as the matter is still quite sensitive to many people. --Illythr (talk) 01:43, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

You've just reprodused what I said (and partially what I implied) with some oversimplifications. Laar's estimations do based on something, although the methodology he use is flawed. Therefore it is incorrect to tell that estimations are based on nothing. They have been done in incorrect way.

As regard to subjects sensitive to many people. I myself belong to them, my grandfather was MIA. I also suspect that many other editors also had relatives who perished during WWII. However, this should apply no limitations on the use of any scientific terms and definitions. Standard error, or garbage collector belong to them. --Paul Siebert (talk) 05:16, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

As English is not my native language, I can sometimes be unclear with it. Here, I changed my post to reflect the idea I was trying to convey with it - pretty much what you're saying. --Illythr (talk) 18:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: WWII

Certainly, I'll have a look... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

"Market Garden" in "Allies close in" section

Hi Paul, Do you think there is room to mention "Market Garden" in "Allies close in" section? Would like to hear your opinion before I add anything to your excellent work on the subject. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 18:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Hard to tell before I see it. Feel free to play with the new version and let's see. BTW, if you add some reference there it would be great. I plan to do that before I insert this section into the article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Paul, I will.--Jacurek (talk) 19:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

WW2 Casualties

I will back you up--Woogie10w (talk) 02:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Woogie10w
--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

WW II war becomes global

Hi Paul

I thank yr call about the flaw in my edition. I'll appreciate if You could help me. Here some links with a brief texts related to subject :

• [10]
• [11]
• [12] See on cronology - January 15-28, 1942; Inter-American Conference at Rio de Janeiro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cybershore (talk • contribs) 03:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

WW 2Casualties by Theatre

Hi, there will be plenty of room to insert tables with losses by theatre in the new page Battle casualties of World War II, I am sure you will be able to improve the page with your knowledge of WW2.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Roberts and the Signal

The Talk page is such a mess with Valeofruin's odd political rants that I figured I would just add this here.

You earlier made this edit, stating "the cited source doesn't contains the statement:"which was aided by Soviet signals for German bombers."

Just to let you know, it does. Roberts (the source) states (page 60): "Stalin's co-operation with Hitler in the military sphere was more circumscribed but still valuable to the Germans. When German bombers attacked Poland in September 1939 they were aided by directional signals from a Soviet radio station."

No big deal. It just was lost in the craziness with Valeofruin.Mosedschurte (talk) 06:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

That is a little bit strange. The 60th page of the source (The Soviet Decision for a Pact with Nazi Germany
Author(s): Geoffrey Roberts
Source: Soviet Studies, Vol. 44, No. 1 (1992), pp. 57-78
Published by: Taylor & Francis, Ltd.
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/152247) is reproduced below. Could you please show me the words cited by you?

"This statement was reputedly delivered at a meeting with Ernst Weizsacker, State Secretary in the German Foreign Ministry, on 17 April 1939. There followed, in Watt's view, a series of German signals of goodwill, including Hitler's speech of 28 April which omitted any attack on the USSR. Watt also speculates that during that last fortnight of April there may have been secret Soviet-German contacts that we still do not know about. At any rate, on 4 May the Soviet Union issued a massive public signal of its intentions by replacing Litvinov with Molotov as People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs. Watt summarises: Litvinov's dismissal and Molotov's accession were followed by a series of visits to the German Foreign Ministry by Georgi Astakhov [Soviet Charge in Berlin] on 5 May and 9 May... and then again on 17 May... The Soviet decision had clearly been taken.7 However, had the Soviet decision been taken? Watt, like successive generations of historians of the Nazi-Soviet pact, was labouring under the handicap of access only to German documents on relations between the two states. His interpretation of Soviet policy was perforce based on essentially second-hand accounts- accounts tainted by German preoccupations, perceptions and policy objectives. It should come as no surprise that quite a different picture of Soviet policy towards Germany emerges from Moscow's own records of its relations with Berlin. The most glaring example of this discrepancy between Soviet and German diplomatic records concerns that infamous meeting between Merekalov and Weizsacker on 17 April 1939. Merekalov's report of the meeting makes it clear that the ostensible purpose of the meeting-to complain about the non-fulfilment of Soviet contracts with the Skoda arms factory in German-occupied Czechoslovakia -was the real one. He records no political remarks of his own, let alone the dramatic words attributed to him by Weizsacker. Indeed, according to Merekalov's account it was Weizsacker who did all the talking about politics, concluding with the 'quasi-formal statement' that 'Germany has differences of political principle with the USSR. All the same it wants to develop economic relations with it'.8 From Moscow's point of view, therefore, the signals for detente emanating from the Merekalov-Weizsacker meeting were, if any, coming from the German side, not the Soviet. Did the Soviet side interpret Weizsacker's remarks in that way? Was the absence of an anti-Bolshevik tirade in Hitler's speech on 28 April perhaps taken as a further sign of German overtures for rapprochement? Was the sacking of Litvinov on 4 May Moscow's reply? That Moscow would interpret Weizsacker's insipid comments in such a way is unlikely, to say the least. The omission of an anti-communist attack by Hitler was unusual, but it was not unique. Moreover, the Nazi dictator's ire on this occasion was directed elsewhere: against Poland in his denunciation of the 1934 German- Polish non-aggression agreement, and against Roosevelt, who a fortnight earlier had had the temerity to ask Hitler if he planned to attack any other countries, following the German occupation of Prague in March 1939.9 With regard to Litvinov the full story of his dismissal has yet to emerge. However, there is a good case for reading his departure from office as the result of a combination of internal politics and a desire by the USSR to signal to the British and French, who were dragging their feet over Soviet proposals for an"

Regards,--Paul Siebert (talk) 12:53, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, the words I removed belong to the footnote, not to the article's body.--Paul Siebert (talk) 12:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

You're right, it's page 43 of Geoffrey Roberts' 2006 book Stalin's Wars (in the bibliography of the article), not 60 of "The Soviet Decision . . . ", and I cited to ref name "roberts" thinking that was to the Bib source "Stalin's Wars". Here is the exact text: "Stalin's co-operation with Hitler in the military sphere was more circumscribed but still valuable to the Germans. When German bombers attacked Poland in September 1939 they were aided by directional signals from a Soviet radio station."

And here is a direct image of the page on Google Books with that exact text.

More details

Stalin's Wars: From World War to Cold War, 1939-1953

By Geoffrey Roberts

Published by Yale University Press, 2006

ISBN 0300112041, 9780300112047

468 pages

Mosedschurte (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Good. Now I understand where it comes from. By the way, I am aware of the fact of bomber guiding, my only objection was that I remembered for sure that that fact hasn't been mentioned by Roberts in that concrete article.
To my opinion, the sources provived by you are an additional proof that there were no substantial military collaboration between Germany and the USSR, although some coordination took place. The facts mentioned by you deserve mentioning as an exceptions of the rule, in a footnote.
--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Completely agree that it wasn't substantial. There was a little coordination going on, with is worth mentioning, but they mostly each just moved in to the various allotted territories.Mosedschurte (talk) 19:40, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

WWII Revision

hi, can u pls tell me why u undid my revision at WWII? The only thing I adedd is that the germans were halted due to the heavy russian winter. This is quite important as in history Napoleon made the same mistake. So I'm wondering what's wrong with that? It's listing some causes behind the facts --Bizso (talk) 05:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Lieber Herr Siebert, da besteht wohl keine Chance, Hermann Rauschning in wwII einzubringen. Wie ich schon sagte, hat die Reichsregierung in den Zwanzigerjahren eine ganze Reihe von Weißbüchern über die Vorgänge im ehemaligen deutschen Osten herausgegeben. Ich konnte sie jedoch nicht bibliographisch nachweisen. Eine wichtige Quelle ist aber Heinrich Bauers Stresemann Biographie, die diese Dinge erwähnt. NickD bedroht mich übrigens auf meiner Talkpage mit dem Rauswurf aus Wikipedia. Herzlichen gruß: user:jäger, 22. June 2009, 23,45 CET —Preceding undated comment added 21:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC).

Technical issue

As an administrator, I'm empowered to conduct a few administrative tasks, but I don't have any special technical knowledge. That said, I have a few suggestions to help troubleshoot your problem. It sounds severe – I've never heard of a web page restarting a computer.

Make note of which web browser and version causes the problem (e.g. Firefox 3.0.5). Can you try a different web browser, or version and see if the problem still occurs (e.g. Konqueror, or Firefox 2). Does it happen if your logged out of Wikipedia? Can you try turning off Javascript, CSS, and plugins in your browser?—if this helps, then restore one at a time to determine which is associated with the problem.

The talk page is very long—398 kB of wikitext. I'll start by archiving most of that, and let you know when I'm done. If you still have a problem, I can look through the code and see if there's any weirdness. Let me know how it goes. —Michael Z. 2009-02-02 20:49 z

Okay, it is now down to 53kB of wikitext. Let me know if you still have trouble. —Michael Z. 2009-02-02 20:50 z

Neutrality and factual accuracy issue

(I'm moving this to your talk page so it's not on both at the same time) Dear Mosedschurte,
I think, we can find a way out of the impasse by ourselves.
You are really a good writer, and I think your contribution is really valuable. Many your edits raise no objections from me, and some of them I fully support. Therefore, in general, it would be incorrect to say that you are biased writer.
Nevertheless, the Molotov-Ribbentrop and Nazi-Soviet collaboration issues are serious violations of WP neutrality and factual correctness policy, and we need to resolve them ASAP. Let's assume for the beginning that the root of the conflict is just simple mutual misunderstanding. Therefore, let me describe the problem how I see it.
You assume that Gemano-Soviet contacts and secret negotiations took place in spring and summer 1939. That is exactly what the 'German school' states, and, nolens volens, you definitely are a proponent of this school. However, other points of view exist on that account, therefore, it is absolutely incorrect to state that these secret negotiations were a well established fact. Other scholars state the directly opposite, and they have a solid ground for such a conclusion. This ground is an "archival revolution", a massive release of previously classified archival documents after the USSR dissolution.
For instance, Roberts states: "My own interpretation of the Soviet documents is well known: that Moscow neither responded to nor made any overtures to the Germans until the end of July 1939 at the earliest. The reason for this was that until summer 1939 Moscow was intent on a triple alliance with Britain and France. I have also described Soviet foreign policy in 1939 as passive, reactive, ad hoc, incompetent even."
According to Carley, "Soviet deceitfulness—though Stalin was certainly proficient in it—appears no worse than that of France and Great Britain."
Other scholars who support this point of view are Watson, Gorodetsky, Taylor. They definitely are not a fringe theorists and you cannot ignore their opinion.
Similarly, the same problem exists with the Nazi-Soviet talks in 1940. Only German school insists that the alliance with Hitler was a major Stalin's strategic goal, and, in that sense, the articles you wrote are also extremely biased.
The economic collaboration is also represented incorrectly. For some reason, you forget to say that the economic relation were effectivelly terminated in early 1930 when Hitler came to power (0.9% of total German import and 0.6% of total German export). By the way, did you asked yourself where other 99% came from?
Frankly, you have not much sources to unequivocally support your (and the German school's) idea of close collaboration between Nazi and the USSR. That is why you systematically use the books of other authors who do not support this idea. However, to support the point you are pushing you have to misrepresent these sources. That is very sad. Brief examination of your talk page demonstrated that at least one other user (Stor stark7) shared my point of view on that account.
Unfortunately, I repeated the above arguments many times and that had no effect, probably because I was unable to make myself clear enough. However, probably, the problem is not with me.
You have to concede that you satisfy many criteria of disruptive editing and tendentious editing.

1. You repeatedly disregards my questions;
2. You repeatedly disregards my explanations for my edits;
3. You repeatedly blamed me in the “vandalism”;
4. For some reason you refuse to assume my good faith;
5. Your citations back some of the facts you are adding, but do not explicitly support your interpretation or the inferences you draw
6. You find yourself repeating the same argument over and over again, without persuading people, (I don't think the problem is in me only, because I never had so long and fruitless discussions with someone else).

In connection to that, I propose you to discuss again the possibility to resolve major neutrality and factual accuracy issues in some articles you wrote. I promise to be polite, correct and concrete. If this discussion appears fruitless I am intended put appropriate tags into the corresponding articles and then I will follow all steps described in the WP:DE and WP:IDHT pages. I will follow these steps accurately and patiently until I reach a desired result.
Do not consider these words as a threat. I am always ready to return to a friendly collaboration. However, it wouldn't be honest not to inform you about the steps I plan to take. I strongly believe I will not need to do that, however.
Best regards,
--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:28, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: "You assume that Gemano-Soviet contacts and secret negotiations took place in spring and summer 1939."

--I don't, and there seems to be perhaps a language barrier issue.

--Having read many books on the topic, what actually happened, in the most summary form, is that they were discussing a potential economic deal since 1938, with the obvious issue that they would provide Germany with the raw materials for war that it couldn't really get elsewhere. As the Soviets negotiated with France and Britain in the spring of 1939, they secretly TALKED (NOT NEGOTIATED with Germany) about the idea of doing a political deal, but were not close to doing so because of the political hostilities between the sides. It wasn't until July that Germany and the Soviets finally began negotiations of any sort about a potential political deal.

--The difference about which there seems to be a disconnect with you is that EVERY source states that they were secretly talking about negotiations early on, but not that negotiations had begun. The examples are numerous and listed from

Re: "you definitely are a proponent of this school"

Honestly, these attacks have got to stop. To be blunt, you making an NPOV claim about another editor is, well, pretty laughable, but I won't even go there.

I'm not even sure you realize how much this crosses the line of civility. I'm not taking any particular "school of thought" editing the articles. In fact, I generally tend to steer clear of any historians' statements or conclusions regarding topics in articles that I edit. Please stop the attacks.

Sidenote: I don't mean this as an attack, but on Talk pages, you seem to exhibit a pattern where you recite long block quotes from sources -- most of which not only have I read, but from which I regularly cite -- that aren't particularly on point (sometimes almost random blocks of text). This may be a language issue. For example, as we've discussed on Talk pages, you took single sentences of the intro paragraphs/abstract of both Watson and a Roberts paper, and expanded them into conclusions not only not supported by the articles themselves, but in complete contradiction to the articles.

There seems to be a pattern of general blunderbuss attacks using vague notions you generate from reading specific quotes in texts, and you then view any piece of text cutting against the vague notion you've generated as "incorrect" or in some other "school of thought" on the issue, when no conflict really exists.

Re: "Similarly, the same problem exists with the Nazi-Soviet talks in 1940. Only German school insists that the alliance with Hitler was a major Stalin's strategic goal"

Again, I have no idea of the point here, as nowhere on Wikipedia have I seen that Stalin considered an Axis Pact deal a necessary strategic goal. Everywhere that I've seen it raised, he considered it -- and clearly every source (except Falsifiers of History maybe) states that much.

Re: "The economic collaboration is also represented incorrectly. For some reason, you forget to say that the economic relation were effectivelly terminated in early 1930 when Hitler came to power (0.9% of total German import and 0.6% of total German export)."

First, Hitler didn't come to power until 1933 (and not effectively dominating until '34). Maybe you should read Nazi–Soviet_economic_relations#Mid-1930s_deterioration_of_relations, that has complete breakdown figures of the imports for those years, specifically discusses the deterioration of relations and massive drops in imports. Not in vague notions, but in terms of specific numbers. By the way, I added much of that article.

Re: "Frankly, you have not much sources to unequivocally support your (and the German school's) idea of close collaboration between Nazi and the USSR."

I don't have any idea of "close collaboration" between the countries. There are activities with which they coordinated, not a single one of which listed that I know of is particularly in historical dispute, and those are the only one mentioned. I can't even remember using the word "collaboration" with regard to their general activities.

Regarding sources, I pretty much cite almost every source out there for much of the additions to Wikipedia on various topics.Mosedschurte (talk) 21:07, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Re:

You repeatedly disregards my questions - This is somewhat ridiculous. I answer a lot of your questions (unlike most people), but this isn't a deposition. No one has to answer every question.

You repeatedly disregards my explanations for my edits - actually, no, in fact, I've highlighted them later in discussions.

You repeatedly blamed me in the “vandalism” -no, I've cited instances where you threaten to vandalize a page

Your citations back some of the facts you are adding, but do not explicitly support your interpretation or the inferences you draw - this is patently untrue, and I generally even stay away from historians' conclusions in texts anyway.

You find yourself repeating the same argument over and over again, without persuading people - Actually, to be honest, in most cases, I've given up attempting to persuade you. I haven't seen a single other person disagree on the issues of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Nazi-Soviet economic relations or related issues. In the Stalin article, there was a dispute with another editor repeatedly reverting all changes (not on the topic of World War II, but all of them), and an administrator weighed in stopped him, as I had suggested.Mosedschurte (talk) 21:24, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: "In connection to that, I propose you to discuss again the possibility to resolve major neutrality and factual accuracy issues in some articles you wrote."

That wasn't very specific.

Here's an alternative: comporting with Wikipedia rules on discussion, open a discussion on an Article's Talk Page if you think something is incorrectly cited or stated.

If you do that, I will of course discuss any particular issue in any article on any talk page.

In fact, I have repeatedly added material that you've raised on talk pages, sometimes in large quantities, to the article in response to your suggestions, some of which I don't even think really belongs, frankly, just to avoid further hassle about it.Mosedschurte (talk) 21:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Probably your response is a first step out of an impasse. Before we continue productive collaboration, let me point out the following. I didn't attack you, I am just trying to characterise your writer's style. If you know Latin, you should understand that "nolens volens" means "willy-nilly". I am just telling you how you look like, once again it is not an attack.
With regards to alleged "a language barrier issue", let me remind you that neutrality and factual accuracy is much more important than good style and correct grammar. I concede you fixed my poor grammar and style many times, however I did the same fith the facts and sources you provided.
With regards to accuracy and bias, let me analyze, for example, one section of the Soviet–German relations before 1941 article you extensively edited recently. I appreciate your comments on my comments and, I think you don't mind to continue the discussion on the appropriate article's talk pages.

Soviet negotiations regarding joining the Axis

Main article: German–Soviet Axis talks

After Germany entered a Tripartite Pact with Japan and Italy, in October of 1940, Stalin wrote to Ribbentrop about entering an agreement regarding a "permanent basis" for their "mutual interests." Stalin sent Molotov to Berlin to negotiate the terms for the Soviet Union to join the Axis and potentially enjoy the spoils of the pact. Molotov insisted on interest in Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Yugoslavia and Greece, though Stalin had earlier unsuccessfully personally lobbied Turkish leaders to not sign a mutual assistance pact with Britain and France.

Ribbentrop asked Molotov to sign another secret protocol with the statement: "The focal point of the territorial aspirations of the Soviet Union would presumably be centered south of the territory of the Soviet Union in the direction of the Indian Ocean." Molotov took the position that he could not take a "definite stand" on this without Stalin's agreement. In response to a written German draft four powers agreement, Stalin presented a written counterproposal, including the Soviets joining the four power Axis if Germany foreclosed acting in the Soviet's sphere of influence. Germany never responded the couterproposal.

• The section states that "Stalin wrote to Ribbentrop about entering an agreement regarding a "permanent basis" for their "mutual interests."".
  In actuality, the source (Roberts) states that it was Hitler who instructed Ribbentrop to wrote Stalin. Ribbentrop wrote Stalin and invited Molotov for negotiations. Stalin's letter was just a response on this invitation.
  Conclusion: direct misinterpretation of the source to create an impression that the initiative came from the Soviet leadership.

• The section states: "though Stalin had earlier unsuccessfully personally lobbied Turkish leaders to not sign a mutual assistance pact with Britain and France."
  In reality Turkish-Soviet relation has only indirect relation to the subject.
  Conclusion: looks like an attempt to distract a reader form the major point, the Nazi-Soviet relations;

• The section states: "Stalin presented a written counterproposal".
  The sources states that it was not a counter-proposal (Stalin's own project of a Nazi-Soviet treaty, or the Four Powers Pact), but just a memorandum that outlined the conditions for Soviet adherence for the pact . I am not a native English speaker, but I am able to feel the difference. In addition, according to one source, Donaldson&Nogee, Hitler considered this proposal as a blackmail. In other words, it is not clear from the source what real Stalin's intentions were.
  Conclusion: a hidden attempt has been made to overemphasise the Nazi-Soviet contacts.
  Final conclusion: every attempt is being made to overemphasise the interest of the USSR in the alliance with Hitler. The grammar and style are perfect, but neither neutrality nor factual accuracy criteria were met.
  I would be grateful if you demonstrated me that your intentions were different, and I was wrong.
  --Paul Siebert (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Correct on (1) and (2), and that paragraph was copied from another paragraph. All of the details are contained in German–Soviet Axis talks. I changed the Soviet-German relations article (which has a lot of other problems, as well), to reflect that Stalin was only responding to Ribbentrop and took out the Turkey, etc. clause.

On the Nov. 25th counterproposal, it was most definitely that. On Hitler thinking he was a blackmailer, try reading German–Soviet Axis talks, which again, contains details of what transpired. It contains the exact quotes of Hitler calling Stalin a blackmailer.Mosedschurte (talk) 02:22, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Good. Of course I read the sources and I know the Hitler's words you refer to. My point is that if Stalin requested concessions that caused so angry Hitler's reaction, that meant he was not necessarily serious in his attempts to join the Axis.
One more comment, and after that we will continue on other talk pages. You are frequently making such errors (that fact is quite understandable taking into account the fantastic speed you are working with). However, you never do mistakes that present Stalin (or, broadly speaking, the Soviet Union) in more favourable light. That creates an impression of your extreme anti-Soviet bias. It is not an accusation, just an explanation my inadequate (to your opinion) reaction. As a result, I have to behave as a Stalin's advocate, although in actuality I am definitely not. Try to think about that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Everyone makes mistakes, but realize that some of the ones in these articles are as a result of me moving or copying text and cites that are originally not accurate, just to organize the article or add information that is lacking. Most of the time, it involves typos or other inaccuracies that don't particularly weigh for or against Stalin.

As an aside, many of your comments focus upon whether something is pro or anti-Stalin. It's not really something I think about, especially in the context of the pre-1945 Soviet foreign policy.Mosedschurte (talk) 03:24, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Not completely agree. I am not a Stalinist. To my opinion, Staling was a greatest disaster for Soviet people. However, sometimes I cannot agree with the emphases you do. Although you repeatedly claim you have no POV, you very frequently write as a biased writer. As a result, I have to conduct a discussion in a pro- and anti- vein. Probably, the most striking example is Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. However, it would be better to continue on the article's talk page.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:34, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Eastern Bloc

Hello, Paul Siebert. You have new messages at Goldsztajn's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

--Goldsztajn (talk) 04:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello, Paul Siebert. You have new messages at Goldsztajn's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

--Goldsztajn (talk) 21:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello, Paul Siebert. You have new messages at Goldsztajn's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

--Goldsztajn (talk) 05:11, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Gulag/Zemskov

Hello, Paul. I do not have a grasp of the professional historians discussion on the number of people actually taken into GULAG. Zemskov's data are that there were about 4 million prisoners overall, from 1920s to 1950s.

Perhaps these numbers are disputed or discussed by other professional historians.

But the situation when Zemskov's data aren't shown at the Wiki Gulag page is IMHO abnormal situation.

What do you think about it? Regards, ellol (talk) 11:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Zemskov's data are shown (Ref 6, in the Gulag article). The graph "Gulag prisoner population statistics from 1934 to 1953" is based on Zemskov's numbers. No serious historian dispute his data. Conquest (in the footnote 5, ibid), and even Anne Appelbaum (ref 2, ibid) use Zemskov's data, although Appelbaum does it incorrectly (see the article's talk page). Zemskov never stated that there were about 4 million prisoners, btw.--Paul Siebert (talk) 12:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct. GULAG was a prison system that involved a number of 'true' criminals, as well. But Zemskov wrote that "actually the number of people convicted for political reasons (for 'counter-revolution crimes') in USSR from 1921 to 1953, i.e. in 33 years, was about 3.8 million people" ("в действительности число осужденных по политическим мотивам (за "контрреволюционные преступления") в СССР за период с 1921 г. по 1953 г., т.е. за 33 года, составляло около 3,8 млн. человек.") GULAG: (historically sociological aspect). I meant these data that aren't explicitly shown, as far as I can see. ellol (talk) 15:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

This it too complex a question. Some de facto political prisoner were treated as criminals. On the other hand, some ordinary criminals were convicted as political ones. Therefore, the actual number of political prisoners is hard to establish...--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I guess, political prisoners were simply those convicted by the article 58? I remember, that, Solzhenitsyn wrote about clear distinction between political and not political prisoners. ellol (talk) 22:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

"Политические аресты нескольких десятилетий отличались у нас именно тем, что схватывались люди ни в чём не виновные"

About article 58: "Парадоксально: всей многолетней деятельности всепроникающих и вечно бодрствующих Органов дала силу всего навсего ОДНА статья из ста сорока восьми статей не-общего раздела Уголовного Кодекса 1926 года."

Etc. Solzhenitsyn constantly refers to "political" and "criminal" prisoners, positioning one group against the other. ellol (talk) 22:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

You are probably right. Although the number of 14 million passed through GULAG (with the average number of prisoners in between 1 and 2 million) is impressive, in actuality this number is surprisingly low. The population of the USSR was about 150 million during that time. In the present day's USA (~300 million) the prisoner population is about 2 to 3 million. In other words, it is normal for such a large country to have about 1-2 million prisoners convicted for ordinary crimes. Therefore, not the number of 14 million matter, but the brutality of the camp system, as well as those 4 millions "political" prisoners who committed no crime. I think, it makes sense to reflect that fact in the article. Let's discuss that on the article's talk page--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I 100% agree. ellol (talk) 09:22, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Paul and Ellol, don't forget to consider that the prisoner population in the United States may be abnormally high for a country of its size. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 13:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

Can you please show me where you proposed this deletion, and where people didn't oppose. --gordonrox24 (talk) 18:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

On the article's talk page. The penultimate section.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The Holocaust

re: Strictly speaking, only two ethnic group...

Many of the ideas you mention are correct to my mind. This article won't go away. No doubt it will be pushed in this direction or that. Most of those discussing it seem to have much the same constructive ideas. I am quite surprised, actually. The message of the Holocaust Center etc. must be getting through. Wallie (talk) 18:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Most editors working on this article are very constructive, friendly and polite, so I have no doubts that it is quite possible to improve the article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Re your:

"Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστον (holókauston): holos, "completely" and kaustos, "burnt"), also known as haShoah :::(Hebrew: השואה), Churben (Yiddish: חורבן) is the term used to describe the program of complete eradication of European Jewry planned and executed by Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler during World War II. In its broadest sense, the terms is used to describe the deliberately planned Nazi genocide of various European ethnic and social groups: approximately six million Jews, and nine to eleven million others, including ethnic Poles, the Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, the disabled, homosexual men and political and religious opponents."

I think this is really great and states the two viewpoints in a way both sets of people should be happy with. Would you be able to now put it in the article? I would definitely support it all the way. Wallie (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Wallie. Let's wait a little bit what other editors will say.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:42, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Debates about the Holocaust are not new. In my 1969 Sociology professor Frankel compared the bombing of Vietnam to the Atomic attacks on Japan and Auschwitz. His argument was that the US bombing of Japan and Vietnam was racially motivated as was the killing of Jews at Auschwitz . A student Stefan Karl who was born in Germany remarked” what about the bombing of Germany, was that also wrong” Not so said Prof Frankel because it was necessary to stop the killing of Jews at Auschwitz. Then an older woman from Taiwan Miss Liu remarked “ was it not also right to bomb Japan in order to stop the killing of the Chinese “ Not so said Frankel because the Japanese were not attempting genocide in China. Miss Liu became very upset and told the class of the Nanking Massacre. Frankel cut her off, "Miss Liu you are disrupting our class, we have to move on". --Woogie10w (talk) 02:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Back in the 1970's most Americans would not recognize the name of Eli Wiesel. The term Holocaust was only used by the general public after the 1978 TV series. I was in Germany in 1978 when it ran in the US, the Germans made jokes about it!! --Woogie10w (talk) 17:55, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course the word holocaust existed long before the 70s. The discussion is about its use to refer specifically to Nazi systemetized murders, particularly of Jews. That 'Shoah' was sporadically translated as 'holocaust' from the 50s is not in doubt. However it was not until the 70s that the primary meaning of the word came to refer to Nazi death camps. Before that the dominant meaning was nuclear war. Paul B (talk) 18:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Eastern bloc redux

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--Goldsztajn (talk) 12:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi

Can you give me some advice. Someone sent me this page. [13] Can you tell me who puts out "the Holocaust Historiography Project". I asked the sender, but got no response. Thank you. Wallie (talk) 13:33, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The "Holocaust Historiography Project" seems to be a private web site where some research has been presented that didn't pass the peer-reviewing procedure. Formally speaking, it cannot be considered a reliable source, regardless of who concretely owns, develops and supports this site. However, de facto the site seems to be very nice and many sources it cites satisfy the reliable source criteria. To my opinion, the information from the secondary sources the site cites can be used in the Holocaust article (obviously, the article should cite these sources, not the "Holocaust Historiography Project", and all facts must be carefully checked).
In addition, if you want to use this site in the article, I can try to provide a reliable sources that support one or another claims the site contains. Just let me know.
Regards
--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:54, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, Paul. I just wasn't sure about this site, but from what you say, it seems well intentioned, which is the main thing. Naturally, all facts need to be carefully checked, as you say. Wallie (talk) 16:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Cold war map

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--Goldsztajn (talk) 23:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Paul, I've done a first draft, your comments would be helpful. Regards --Goldsztajn (talk) 08:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

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--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Can't believe someone hasn't given you one of these yet.....

		Civility Award
		For remaining calm and collected (and showing me it's possible to remain calm and collected) in the face of months of obstructionism and obscurantism at Eastern Bloc. Goldsztajn (talk) 00:20, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Animated GIF

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--Goldsztajn (talk) 02:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

A question

Hi Paul Siebert. Could you please explain this [14]? Hitler's alliance with Stalin started the war, and the two aggressors - Nazi and Soviet, closely cooperated between 1939 and 1941. This has to be mentioned in the article, at least in partial form. Tymek (talk) 05:10, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Dear Tymek, please familiarise yourself with the Estonia in World War II talk page: the question you ask has been dissected in details there. Briefly, the statement "Hitler's alliance with Stalin started the war" is incorrect for following reasons: (i) there were no alliances between Germany and the USSR, just a non-aggression treaty; (ii) there were neither cooperation nor even coordination between Germany and the USSR during the most crucial period of the invasion; (iii) the decision to attack Poland was made by Hitler even before MRP was signed; (iv) WWII started with declaration of war on Germany by the UK (with domonions) and France; the USSR didn't declare a war on anybody and nobody declared a war on the USSR in Sept 1939.
The (iv) serves an additional argument agains inclusion of Soviet invasion into the Chronology section.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Did Germany declare war on Poland on Sept 1, 1939? Did Germany declare war on the Soviets? Did Japan declare war on the USA? Besides, a non-aggression treaty, together with a secret protocol, which divided Eastern Europe between the two aggressors, makes an alliance, don't you think so? Tymek (talk) 17:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, they did, although post factum. And, definitely, the UK and France did declare war on Germany after the latter attacked Poland. However, no country (including Poland herself) declared war on the USSR after September 17. That is why your edit is irrelevant to the "Chronology" section: Soviet invasion of Poland had no relation to the outbreak of WWII. With regards to the "War breaks out" section, the fact that the USSR invaded Poland is already there.
With regards to alliance, please, familiarise yourself with definition of alliance and non-aggression treaty.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Deleting vandalism to your talk page

Paul--I deleted this edit [15] to your talk page as it seems to be a case of vandalism (the same anonymous IP also vandalised my talk page). Regards.--Goldsztajn (talk) 21:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

thank you Goldsztajn --Paul Siebert (talk) 23:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Here is the revised version

Here is the revised version, [16], it has a lot of data on WW one that did not appear in the earlier edition. I assume you can read Russian Regards --Woogie10w (talk) 20:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

This book is critical of Krivosheev, it can be obtained in the US Library Congress Liudskie poteri v Velikoi Otechestvennoi voine 1941- 1945 gg: Statisticheskoe issledovanieby S. N Mikhalev.

Krivosheev's math is fuzzy, his total war dead do not reconcil to the balance of men conscripted, discharged in the war and the number on duty in 1945. --Woogie10w (talk) 20:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Take a look at the reference for Krivosheev, I used the English translation in print rather than the Russian original. I remember when the Russian edition came out in 1994, I spent hours with it and improved my Russian reading skills. Also there may be a copyright issue with that translation made for internal US government consumption. You may want to run that by the Wikipedia copyright experts. --Woogie10w (talk) 21:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

My hard copies are always available to improve Wikipedia, please feel free to ask if you need data.--Woogie10w (talk) 23:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

My concern re: copyright violation is that the US publisher Greenhill, may have rights to the material.--Woogie10w (talk) 23:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion at WW2 Casualties

Please review my post at Talk:World War II casualties#Civilian Casualties in Asia. What is your opinion?--Woogie10w (talk) 21:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The "Allies gain momentum" section

Thanks Paul, I like what you have done. StevenWT (talk)

Re: A question

Hey, I am really not competent enough to verify the document but I have just forwarded the question to a friend of mine who is a professional historian, specialising on the beginning of the Soviet occupation of Estonia. I expect to get an answer in a few days. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 08:52, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Stalin's speech on August 19, 1939

Hi! Seems you have very good access to sources, so it would be useful and interesting if you do find any deep analyse of the Stalin's speech on August 19, 1939. I have not noticed full story how the speech was found again, and its authenticity. The Finnish historian Ohto Manninen mentioned the incident shortly in his book, but there is a small conflict: Was it first published by the "Swiss journal Revue de Droit International" or by the "French newsagency Haves"? And second question: who was this "Bushuyeva"? Why did she find only French translation? Peltimikko (talk) 19:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Last warning: If you threaten me or another editor again, or accuse any other editor of being a "Nazi POV pusher", I will take steps from the admin to have you permanently banned

Accusing another editor of something as vile as being a"Nazi POV pusher", not just once but twice, is so beyond the pale and in violation of WP:Civil and other Wikipedia policies that I'm not even sure what to say. It gets no lower than that. That is it. We are done. After months of threats and outrageous statements, you even one-upped yourself with that one.Mosedschurte (talk) 06:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Question

Hello Paul! I am curious about your nickname. Did you choose it in the honor of "Paul Zeebert", the fake name of Nikolai Ivanovich Kuznetsov who was the most famous Soviet scout during WWII? If so, I appreciate this.Biophys (talk) 19:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC)