Wikipedia:Featured article review/British Empire/archive1

British Empire

British Empire (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/British Empire

• Featured article review/British Empire/archive1
• Featured article review/British Empire/archive2

Notified: Example user, Example WikiProject

I am nominating this featured article for review because...

• A few weeks back I noticed discrepancies in the article and some inapprorpitate language which I removed without too many objections. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]
• Further problems with the article were pointed out by several different editors (User:John K, User:Yogesh Khandke and User:Zuggernaut) recently - these relate to gross discrepancies in two maps and some POV issues. I attempted to improve the article by removing the maps but they were quickly added back.[6] [7][8] The discrepancies were dismissed as minor on the talk page. [9] A user even suggested that the editors working to improve the articles be ignored and their comments deleted. [10]
• POV issues [11] have been dismissed in a similar manner without providing any explanation on the talk page.[12]
• A review will help identify problems or inappropriate language that might not directly be seen by individual editors specializing in or having knowledge of one particular area.
• Detailed discussions can be found on the talk page.

These users have been notified:

User:The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick
User:Wiki-Ed
User:Derek Ross
User:Snowded
User:Yogesh Khandke
User:John K
Wikipedia:Empire
WP:IN

Zuggernaut (talk) 01:09, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

This Review is being requested by a user whos edit history clearly shows he has a political agenda on wikipedia. The guy has violated canvass rules in order to help his position in a debate, hes added POV material that has had to be undone or caused sections of articles to need neutrality tags, hes created pointless categories related to the British Empire and now he seeks to undermine the status of an article because he dislikes the subject. It is now almost impossible to assume good faith in Zuggernauts actions. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:40, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. He also has obviously not familiarized himself with Wikipedia policies yet. Zuggernaut's "problems" with the article can be resolved on the article talk page - most of the problems he raises are not problems at all, just him misunderstanding policies or him not liking that he can't have his POV injected into the article. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 10:04, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

A review is not necessary. This seems like a peevish attempt to disrupt following successive failures to make POV/OR changes to a very-well sourced article. Wiki-Ed (talk) 11:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Agree, no review is necessary --Snowded ^TALK 15:06, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Review is necessary. Reason (1) Graphics - maps are user created and not peer-reviewed. (2) Article is one sided - see sub-section below. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Image issues: I have tidied up the images as much as I could, but the following require further action.

• File:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg: pretty sure Zscout370 did not design the Union Jack or did it in 1801... filed a request to change it.[13]

• File:The British Empire.png, File:BritishEmpire1815.png, File:The British Empire.png, File:BritishEmpire1919.png: Maps can be copyrighted (see commons:Commons:Image casebook#Maps and satellite images). Unless the maps in those books were not copyrighted (either using public domain maps or creation from data sets), retracing them would be a copyright violation. Use maps such as File:World map pol 2005 v02.svg, File:CIA Political World Map 2002.jpg or other well-sourced maps as the base map (geographical features) and fill in the areas with the data from the listed sources.

• File:British Colonies in North America c1750 v2.png: Source, "from Wikipedia", is not okay (be precise), where did the base map come from (similar issue to above)? Is Y.B The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick?

• File:Clive.jpg: Per WP:CITE#IMAGE, link to the page that displays the image, not to the image itself. Where comes the information of authorship and date then?

• File:Yorktown80.JPG, File:Captainjamescookportrait.jpg, File:Grand fleet jutland.jpg: Needs a source per WP:IUP and WP:CITE#IMAGE

• File:British Empire 1897.jpg: Link does not show or help to verify this map was created or published in 1897. Neither does it help to verify {{PD-old}} since the cartographer might have created this map at the age of 25 and lived till he was 80 (1952), which would not be 70 years ago.

• File:ImperialConference.jpg: What is the copyright status of this file in the US (relevant for storage on either Wikipedia or Commons)?

• File:Jinnah Gandhi.jpg: Copyright status in the US? {{PD-India}} specifically states "enter the public domain 60 years after the date on which they were first published" (emphasis in italics), where comes the information this was published (distributed to the public in several copies) in September 1944? Why are there two separate Indian copyright templates? Which is the correct one?

• File:AREden.jpg: "Access: unrestricted" does not mean that there is no copyright. The IWM is like the Library of Congress, collecting material from government and private sources, and also advises on the existence of copyrighted items in its collection and for users to conduct their own research (and request for licensing from private copyright holders).[14][15] It specifically states that this photograph is "Commercial photograph, Portrait photograph (studio)", which means that this is not a Crown Copyright item.

• File:P history.png: The figure of the horse and its rider is taken from the cover of this book (1974), which is copyrighted for 95 years since publishing per http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm.

• File:Masters of the Seas.jpg: What is this painting's copyright status in the United States, considering that it is still copyrighted in the UK on 1 January 1996 (the cut-off date for URAA copyright restoration in the US)? Jappalang (talk) 15:22, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

There are serious image issues that should not be encountered in an FA. Jappalang (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

To address the map issue: I did not "trace" any maps. They all used maps that can be found at Wikipedia:Blank_maps as a starting point, and the references cited in the map descriptions were then simply used to ensure that we were not colouring in a territory as British Empire that cannot be verified in a reliable source. Please let me know how I can update the description pages of these maps to make that clear. Regarding this map [16] whoever transferred it from Wikipedia to the commons just put in "Wikipedia" as the source instead of copying the source that I had put in there - I'll fix. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 23:47, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

The maps would have to state exactly which map or set of data (giving links if taken from the web) was used as the base. For example, if I took File:World map pol 2005 v02.svg and coloured a few nations in red (say the communist bloc during the Cold War), I would put in the Source field: "base map: File:World map pol 2005 v02.svg". This will help other editors to verify the underlying work (File:World map pol 2005 v02.svg is in the public domain because it is a CIA creation). Several maps in Wikipedia:Blank_maps fail to state their sources and as such fail WP:IUP and WP:CITE#IMAGE. Their non-compliance will extend to derivative works, so please do not use them (or have their creators reveal the sources used). Off hand, I would say that File:World98.svg is safe to use as a base for future maps, and so are File:BlankMap-World6.svg and File:BlankMap-World6-Equirectangular.svg, which are derivatives of File:World map pol 2005 v02.svg. Jappalang (talk) 04:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Clive is fixed, Yorktown has been replaced, Jutland has been replaced, AREden has been replaced, P history has been removed. I think ImperialConference now has the correct tag, but would appreciate a check. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:59, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

P history is still there (it is a portal image). Jappalang (talk) 15:22, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Maps drawn by editors

Wikipedia has a clear policy: Verifiablity and not truth. What has been done has been confessed as research based on reliable sources, I will not contest whether the maps are accurate or not. But they are original research. British Empire is an ancient subject. There are sure to be maps circa early 20th century, which are bound to be copyright free. If contributors draw their own maps, such maps should not be included in a FA. Please take the maps off.

Please we need to improve the standard of Wikipedia. My suggestions are to be considered with the fact that we are dealing with a FA. Which is the best of Wikipedia. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:02, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Before anyone gets into this further, read over Talk:British Empire#Is the map Original research, unreliable source, synthesis? where these points have already been raised and others have countered those points (effectively or not, up to reader to decide). Chipmunkdavis (talk) 06:12, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

It cannot be right to suggest that any map or table created by an editor from reliable sources is OR or synthesis per se. It is simply a way of presenting a substantial amount of verifiable information in an easily digestable or illustrative form. It is no more automatically synthesis or OR than any written summary of information.Fainites ^barleyscribs 08:18, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Yogesh Khandke has now three times (make it four) been pointed towards WP:OI. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 10:03, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Negative impact of BE

The negative impact of BE is not dealt with. This article is completely one sided and does not address the negative impact of imperialism - slavery, exploitation of resources, racism, brutality, cultural and religious aggression. Very one sided article. Should not be a FA. FA is a showcase for Wikipedia. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:01, 29 September 2010 (UTC) Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:01, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

The effects of the British Empire are concentrated in the Legacy section, which covers everything in what I feel is a neutral manner. It doesn't praise whatever the British Empire did, and it does mention negatives, such as conflicts in Kashmir and Ireland that resulted. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 06:14, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Deceit, slavery, exploitation, racism, brutality, cultural and religious aggression, where is it? The near extermination of the inhabitants of North America, Australia, New-Zealand where is it? Slavery and indentured labourers where is it? Apartheid where is it. Signs like Indians and dogs not allowed where is it? Wonder how a puerile apologist article got through to FA, a serious flaw in the system?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I should have thought all these types of things are endemic to human societies in general, historically speaking, and probably all of the many empires there have been and still are, big and small, to varying degrees. An article on such a big topic can't cover all the details but other articles certainly can and do.Fainites ^barleyscribs 08:25, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh for god sake. There is only so much that can be written in an article. I am sure you could write a long rant about your hatred of the British Empire, an equally long list of the benefits of Empire could be provided to counter your hatred, but we do not have enough room to include that either in a single article. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:28, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

At any rate, does this article go on about the positive impact of the Empire? I can't find anywhere where it praises the wonderful thing it's done, but I guess if the negative is added that can be too! You know, for neutrality ;) Chipmunkdavis (talk) 08:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, it is neutral. It does infact mention things like slavery, deaths from famine in India and Ireland, areas of conflict today such as Kashmir and Palestine and tensions between white settler populations and indigenous populations and the religious divide in Ireland. The reception minorities were granted when they arrived in Britain has nothing to do with the British Empire article. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:03, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

We periodically get editors crop up who argue we need to discuss the negative impacts and who want to right WP:GREATWRONGS. Every time, we ask, please quote where the article is portraying the Empire in a positive light, and we never get anything from them, unsurprisingly because nowhere does the article do this. It states the facts and lets the reader decide whether it was good or bad to, say, transport slaves or take land from the Maoris. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 10:14, 29 September 2010 (UTC) ps for the record, Yogesh Khandke made an unsourced edit to the article with the edit comment that 9/11 was Britain's fault.

• Comment. I don't see very much wrong with this. It appears to me to a balanced, neutral, and fairly well written account of the British Empire. There's one request for citation that needs to be dealt with, and the first paragraph of the Cape to Cairo section needs to be cited, but they're small things easily dealt with. I see no justification for this FAR. Malleus Fatuorum 15:14, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

• Allright, thanks Malleus. At this point I think we're just waiting on the image issues being fixed, and then this can be kept without a FARC. Dana boomer (talk) 22:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

The comment refers to what was written in the edit summary. Is 9-11 a holy cow. Please see talk page of BE. Where I have given references for appeasements of Muslim fanatics by British. and Rev. Wright. British Empire had effect as mentioned above by me for those over which it ruled and fantastic for the ruling class in Britain, why should I bother about the impact of other empires here. There is so much fuss about how big it was and all that irrelevant information. The events in India to the Queens proclaimation and later, and the Company's time earlier are covered in a very POV fashion. Kashmir is brought up in a POV fashion, the source being a map. Article looks like it was written by an apologist in the fashion of 18th century bards masquerading as scholars. As Zaggaurnauts has commented on talk page regarding choice of archaic scholars. Editors ought to address these issues to arrive at a consensus, or the FA status should be withdrawn which was in my o, rushed through (not in terms of time), but in terms of quality checks. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:51, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Editor drawn maps not kosher for FA The original reasearch consession for images is just that a consession imo. Should not be allowed for a FA, which should be of the highest standard. No need to count how many times explanations are made, if what I wish to convey does not get across. User drawn maps are not kosher imo for a FA, unless the user/editor is a {{WP:RS}} Is my point clear gentlemen?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

• Response to Malleus's comment The article is well written in terms of language, presentation and produces a good account of the British Empire in many respects. Offensive language was introduced in the article by The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick on October 28, 2007. After that, the article passed multiple reviews, became an FA and made the front page on June 13, 2009. It got 76,100 hits on that day alone. I have not been able to count the number of views it received in the three years between October 28, 2007 and today. School children of a tender age have been laying more trust in FA, A and GA class articles and they come back and ask questions about what they read. The account this article gives differs significantly (by excluding criticism of BE) from what mainstream historians will attest to. My recent well-sourced edit[17] was quickly undone and it illustrates this (the sources provided are two very reputable newspapers). It is difficult to get any neutrally worded criticism of the BE in the article because the same set of vocal editors will vote it down as is illustrated by the responses to this FA review. I also discovered that the article is highly prone to vandalism when I undid this edit [18] Unless criticism is allowed in the article, it should be considered a biased article and be given a B-class rating. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

...and sorry for airing my dirty laundry here but the same set of editors have followed me to the Famine in India article, added {{POV}} tags, just because I was being assertive in including well sourced material about 37 million deaths of Indians due to starvation under British rule. I've had to spend my time on non-content related edits and peripheral things like taking the matter to OR and NPOV noticeboards to get outside opinions before the {{POV}} tag was taken off. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:38, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I can see that you're a man on a mission, but I think it is you who is displaying a very definite bias, particularly when it comes to Indian issues. Just above you call this edit "offensive", but in your edit summary you merely said that the word "native" was redundant, which it probably is. But were the sepoys not native to India? Of course they were, so how is it offensive? I have no intention of being dragged into either side of your crusade, so I'll simply end by observing that it's my perception that unless this article reflects your own prejudices and biases then you want to see its FA status removed, which is unacceptable. Malleus Fatuorum 12:47, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

• Violation of 1(c) of WP:FA criteria Another example of a subtly worded construct that makes India look bad: "The end of the Company was precipitated by a mutiny of sepoys against their British commanders, which spilled over into widespread civil unrest, due in part to the tensions caused by British attempts to Westernise India."

Source used: Olson, James (1996). Historical Dictionary of the British Empire. Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 031329366X. Retrieved 22 July 2009.

The source's meaning is twisted to meet The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick's POV. The war of Indian independence was over religion not over efforts to Westernize India. Infact Indian social reformers such as Ram Mohan Roy were trying to westernize India themselves, having realized the advantages. These alternative and highly reliable sources were pretty easy for me to find:

• BBC - Indian mutiny was 'war of religion' "In the rebels' own papers, they refer over and again to their uprising being a war of religion. There were no doubt a multitude of private grievances, but it is now unambiguously clear that the rebels saw themselves as fighting a war to preserve their religion, and articulated it as such."
• BBC - This Sceptred Isle: EMPIRE "The reasons for the rebellion were long standing and included: attempts by British missionaries to convert all India to Christianity; ineffectual command of the army in Bengal; insensitive recruiting policy and "Europeanization" of the sepoy regiments and sepoy objections to serving outside their homeland and traditional areas."
• Telegraph - Causes of the Indian Mutiny "More sophisticated historical readings find a range of causes for the bubbling discontent that led to open rebellion - the punitive tax collection system, a succession of British territorial seizures and the rise of aggressive Christian evangelism among them."

The yet-unsuccessful discussion on the talk page to rectify the content can be found here Talk:British_Empire#.22Westernisation_of_India.22

Zuggernaut (talk) 06:09, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

• Violation of 1(d) of WP:FA criteria Non-neutral statement - "India suffered a series of serious crop failures in the late 19th century, leading to widespread famines in which it is estimated that over 15 million people died. The East India Company had failed to implement any coordinated policy to deal with the famines during its period of rule. This changed during the Raj, in which commissions were set up after each famine to investigate the causes and implement new policies, which took until the early 1900s to have an effect."

Note the subtly with which the British East India Company is made to take the blame instead of the British government. I took this up a few weeks back at the WP:SYN noticeboard [19]

The responses on that board follow the same pattern - the initial responses were by the same set of editors who obviously rejected what I was saying. But other neutral editors are do notice the ambiguity and confusion. Zuggernaut (talk) 06:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

The right places to discuss this are at the article talk page, and on the relevant noticeboards if you want to include outside opinion. You already took the famine wording to the OR noticeboard [20] and nobody agreed with you that it was either synthesis or POV. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 12:50, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

• Olson an unreliable source not because of any specific bias, but this guy wrote a few books on the VN War and seems to go for quantity over quality and makes lots of random mix-ups everywhere. On a "dictionary of the VN War" there were blatant bloopers on every two or three pages, saying that the Tay Son Dynasty's surname was Tran, that most of the leadership of South Vietnam were descendants of the Nguyen Dynasty (presumably 40% of VN are descendants of the ruling family?) that Nguyen Cao Ky was a Nguyen dynasty prince, that Ngo Dinh Diem is a descendant of Ngo Quyen, that Nguyen Lords conquered Thailand, an randomly getting a lot of people's surnames, job titles and religions upside down. The guy is basically a joke and could have used a coin flip to determine content, really. Nothing related to claims to bias, he is just a clown, that's all YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:26, 1 October 2010 (UTC)