Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Nazi monuments in Canada: Difference between revisions

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List of Nazi monuments in Canada

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Reposting a malformed AfD request, see below. 162 etc. (talk) 20:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It’s a useless list containing only 3 items, and a POV pusher. ~~I suggest to merge it to the article Canadian war memorials. The three items should get added to the said article, and this page should become a redirect.~~ -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But those aren’t Canadian War memorials. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 so you propose to merge or delete? GizzyCatBella🍁 20:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Merge to a more suitable list, change the tile, or delete. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This is a notable topic that satisfied WP:GNG and also WP:NLIST. Of course it's a difficult topic, and it's a topic that has indeed be something where misinformation is pushed, but we should not avoid difficult topics. This has been discussed extensively at Talk:List_of_Nazi_monuments_in_Canada but we have not reached consensus, discussion has included if the title is best, and also deletion and also merging.

We should keep this due to the significant coverage in reliable sources. Examples:

I note the points made on the talk page about if it is fair to call these monuments to Nazis and Nazi collaborators, so for the avoidance of doubt:

Two of these are monuments to the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician). Yes indeed, the SS, a Nazi organisation
One of these is a monument to Roman Shukhevych, his collaboration with Nazis is well document on his page.

WP:NLIST is satisfied as many sources deal with these collectively, some as mentioned above, others clearly do, I don't think I need to list them.

In reply to the POV pushing that is being accused, what is the point of view that is being pushed? Is it that these are Nazi memorials? That is very well documented in reliable sources. I see why this is a difficult topic and at a difficult time, I am sympathetic, but there is no original research happening here. Canada has Nazi memorials and it's hitting the news, being a notable topic, and an appropriate one for Wikipedia. CT55555 (talk) 20:45, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

- @CT55555:, Have you read this article? Calling them Nazi monuments is oversimplified and a needless POV pusher. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:53, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This "list" only has three entries (two of which have Wikipedia articles), and I agree with the proposer that the title is needlessly NPOV. 162 etc. (talk) 20:50, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as a WP:POVFORK. The content included to the 3-item list is already covered on a number of other pages. This is all about the Ukrainian "Nazi". Therefore, one might also argue this is also an attack page, but I would say just "inherently POV". I can elaborate these points later (do not have time right now). My very best wishes (talk) 20:57, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The initial version of this page had four examples, one was French. You started a merge discussion asking that the French example be removed. So it's only about Ukraine because you pushed the article in that direction. This seems unfair. CT55555 (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The french example was removed because it wasn't a monument Tristario (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and I think you elaborated the point about the POV fork in your comment below already.My very best wishes (talk) 23:39, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - as this is a notable issue in Canada (see sources) but I’m open to adjusting the title. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, every subject in the list is individually notable (all three of them). That's why we have such pages. But I do not think this is a legitimate list as a POV fork. If it was a regular page, if it was titled differently and written differently, as I suggested on talk, then maybe. But in the present state I think it better be deleted.My very best wishes (talk) 23:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, this is a major issue in Canada (for years). Here what Ottawa Citizen daily writes about it - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:42, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ATD is policy and directs us clearly that If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting CT55555 (talk) 05:44, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The content of this article is already covered by the articles 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician), Roman Shukhevych statue (Edmonton) and St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery. I don't see any good reasons why we need a separate three entry list of these monuments/memorials - not every collection of three items needs to be made into a separate article listing them on wikipedia - WP:CONTENTFORK also applies here. There has also been a great deal of difficulty of choosing a WP:NPOV name for this article - Some people want the name "Nazi monuments", but there is only one source, which is a biased source and arguable an opinion piece, which (without attribution or scarequotes, and per WP:HEADLINES in the body of the article) refers to them directly as "nazi monuments". There is also this source, which quotes a historian that pushes back against the straightout "Nazi" label. In terms of the wording used by sources, they typically say nazi collaborators (or some variant) when talking about the nazi connection, but there's a lot of variety in how the sources in the article label these monuments, and they usually quote different viewpoints, making it hard to decide on a label. The nature of making a list like this where you group items like this together is that you have to make a judgement on what the best collective description is - and that naturally brings in WP:NPOV issues, which is a difficulty that isn't necessary to deal with in the first place, since I think this falls under WP:CONTENTFORK--Tristario (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Politics, Lists, and Canada. Skynxnex (talk) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment User:My_very_best_wishes has made a sensible suggestion which does open the door to a compromise solution, perhaps suggesting the AFD is a bit hasty. CT55555 (talk) 21:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note - Proposal of the move is live at the same time - proposed by the same user. [1] GizzyCatBella🍁 22:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:FORUMSHOPing is a poor way to reach consensus on anything. CT55555 (talk) 22:43, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. CT55555 (talk) 22:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:FORK of 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician), Roman Shukhevych statue (Edmonton) and St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery and not actually a list article. MrsSnoozyTurtle 02:06, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've read WP:FORK and cannot see how it applies to any wikipedia article, it's about people plagiarising the encyclopaedia off the encyclopaedia. CT55555 (talk) 05:54, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia). It was deleted as a POV fork (and also per crystalball but POV fork is what care about in this discussion). -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 08:10, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The guideline WP:POVFORK states that a PV Fork is a clearly defined thing that occurs when a disagreement is unresolved and then someone creates an article. That didn't happen here. This guideline is being quoted incorrectly. I didn't fork this out of anything, I was just writing an article about a journalist and learned about these monuments, saw there was no article and created one. Please, let's quote the right policy, which is WP:GNG and WP:NLIST and discuss it in relation to them. CT55555 (talk) 05:50, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 45: / Line 45: @@
 *'''Delete''' WP:FORK of [[14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician)]], [[Roman Shukhevych statue (Edmonton)]] and [[St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery]] and not actually a list article. [[User:MrsSnoozyTurtle|''MrsSnoozyTurtle'']] 02:06, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 *:I've read [[WP:FORK]] and cannot see how it applies to any wikipedia article, it's about people plagiarising the encyclopaedia off the encyclopaedia. [[User:CT55555|CT55555]] ([[User talk:CT55555|talk]]) 05:54, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
+*::See [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia)]]. It was deleted as a POV fork (and also per crystalball but POV fork is what care about in this discussion). -<span style="background:yellow;">[[User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123|🇺🇦<span style="color:blue;">Слава🇺🇦Україні</span>🇺🇦<span style="color:blue;">Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦</span>]]([[User talk:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123|talk]])🇺🇦</span> 08:10, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 *'''Comment''' The guideline [[WP:POVFORK]] states that a PV Fork is a clearly defined thing that occurs when a disagreement is unresolved and then someone creates an article. That didn't happen here. This guideline is being quoted incorrectly. I didn't fork this out of anything, I was just writing an article about a journalist and learned about these monuments, saw there was no article and created one. Please, let's quote the right policy, which is [[WP:GNG]] and [[WP:NLIST]] and discuss it in relation to them. [[User:CT55555|CT55555]] ([[User talk:CT55555|talk]]) 05:50, 24 November 2022 (UTC)