Wikipedia talk:Commercial editing/archive

Paid Editing Proposals

In November 2013, there were three main discussions and votes on paid editing:

No paid advocacy (talk) (closed: opposed)

Paid editing policy proposal (talk) (closed: opposed)

Conflict of interest limit (talk) (closed: opposed)

Welcome

Please leave a comment. Jehochman ^Talk 13:58, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Comment

• I oppose opening yet another Talk thread here, from scratch. Lots of people have taken the time to come and comment - we have three sprawling discussions on the three main proposals (the fourth proposal on Wikipedia:Sock puppetry/Employees has not gotten any traction and should be removed from the list to the right). To honor the time people have given to comment, and to actually move things forward, I suggest (again, as I just proposed this on the former Talk page) that User:SlimVirgin and User:Jehochman a) collaborate to make another proposal addressing as much as possible themes that have emerged on both sides; b) withdraw and close down the three (and now four?) discussions that are currently going; c) on the Talk page of the unified proposal, tee up the discussion by summarizing the key "pro" and "con" arguments from these three sprawling discussions, and ask readers to carefully consider those arguments and to refer to them while commenting. This would help a lot. If the two of you cannot come to consensus it is very unlikely the whole community will be able to. I would be happy to help, especially with c), if you like, but as the proposers I think it needs to come from you, especially withdrawal of the current competing proposals. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:17, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree. It's duplicative and confusing. Coretheapple (talk) 15:18, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Has this guideline been adopted? How did that come to pass? Also, I want to point out that the shortcuts (WP:PAID and NPAID) go to another page than this one. Coretheapple (talk) 14:28, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Changed header to Proposal to reflect what this really is. --Mike Cline (talk) 15:07, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Of course, now there're three nearly identical proposals, which seems redundant. I wonder if this one could be used, though, to rewrite the real problem, section one, which seems to be the real problem (given that section two and three are immediately dedicated to refuting section one). WilyD 15:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

• Stop this please. This fifth simultaneous proposal is forum shopping for something that has, so far, not demonstrated itself to have consenus (or anything approaching it). Please, concentrate discussion in one location. →—Sladen (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I concur. --118.93nzp (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I also agree with this. Do we have to keep expressing our opposition to the same proposals for all the same reasons, with all the previous discussions hidden away on the other page names? This is getting ridiculous. It's long past time that these were all marked as failed proposals. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:05, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed that this should Stop now. For starters, the page is full of unsubstantiated claims, or as I call them, "lies". We shouldn't base guidelines, much lest policies, on the basis of falsehoods. I would go into all of the false claims, one by one, but it just isn't worth the time, since this is just another failed proposal in the making. - 2001:558:1400:10:E1C7:8438:5E48:3232 (talk) 17:09, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree with either you or User:David Eppstein that any proposal has failed (in the sense that we should walk away). There is a great deal of concern about paid editing and likewise, a great concern that efforts to address problems with paid editing would make bigger problems. My hope is that people ~try~ to work toward consensus instead of making this a WP:BATTLEGROUND. Claiming that a proposal if full of lies is just not very helpful. In any case we need to move forward, not laterally. Jytdog (talk) 17:25, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

But supporters of paid editing have a point. No matter how you slice it, they have majority opinion on their side. The way Wikipedia is set up, that pretty much making a curb on paid editing impossible. That passes the baton over to the Wikimedia Foundation, which has it within its power to amend its terms of service as a matter of self-preservation. NPOV is a Foundation policy, and does not depend upon the consent of Wikipedia editors. Even if a majority decided to rise up against NPOV, my understanding is that NPOV would remain regardless. We can argue forever but the maximum result would seem to be a rule that would just enshrine the status quo. If that were to happen, the Foundation may just shrug its shoulders and say "the community has spoken." I think that's the worst of all possible outcomes. Coretheapple (talk) 17:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I should point out that I am very much not a "supporter of paid editing", meaning people or companies whose business model is to write Wikipedia articles on behalf of subjects who want to have Wikipedia articles written about them. But despite some half-hearted language about it in the last couple of drafts, the supporters of these proposals have failed to distinguish those sorts of editing from other types of editing that are not advocacy but also happen to be paid (e.g. expert editing), and have failed to show how requirements to identify yourself as a paid editor will be enforced or will have a positive effect on the scourge that is promotional editing. Rather than addressing these issues they seem to be making cosmetic changes, changing the name of the proposal, and hoping that the people who complained about the flaws in their previous proposals will just go away. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't really thinking about you specifically, as there are a lot of people who support, ideologically or otherwise, paid editing. I think that objections concerning expert editing are nor and should not be an obstacle as there is no sentiment for curbing it. That falls under the category of "collateral damage" and it can be dealt with, as nobody wants experts to not edit Wikipedia. Personally I think it is not a genuine issue and that there is not going to be any impact on experts editing Wikipedia, but that is neither here nor there because, one way or the other, there is not going to be any progress on this issue. Coretheapple (talk) 18:06, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Paid editors here

I don't doubt that much opposition stems from paid editors trying to protect their income. Please disclose when commenting if you accept pay for edits Jehochman ^Talk 18:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Wow, WP:AGF much? —David Eppstein (talk) 18:32, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Why would paid editors worry about any of these failed and failing proposals? Those that already abide by the Bright Line Rule will not be affected. Those that carry out their paid editing without disclosing will also not be affected. Jehochman, please disclose when commenting if you write advertisements suitable for Wikipedia. - 2001:558:1400:10:E1C7:8438:5E48:3232 (talk) 20:22, 8 November 2013 (UTC)