Wikipedia talk:No original research

Article about an amateur who researched stone circles

My uncle did original research on stone circles throughout the British Isles over thirty years..His work is in a library of Scottish Heritage.I doubt it has been looked at much.Would an article about my uncle be okay? HairyAlikk (talk) 15:28, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

@HairyAlikk: "No original research" here means that wikipedians cannot add text in wikipedia articles without providing references in reliable independent sources. Now, are there any publications about your uncle? Please see our guideline WP:NBIO on how to start articles about people. - Staszek Lem (talk) 18:07, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Depending on what the level of expertise on the subject the Uncle has, this would be more a question of WP:WEIGHT than original research.--64.229.167.158 (talk) 07:48, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

If you are talking about creating a bio article about your uncle, you will need to support the article with independent sources that talk about your uncle (and his work). You would have to show that he is notable enough for us to have an article about him.

If you are talking about using his research as a source in an article about stone circles... if his work has been published, then it might be usable (but see the comment above, concerning WP:WEIGHT... a lot depends on how others view your uncle's work - his expertise and reputation). Blueboar (talk) 13:20, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Copyright, plagiarism, and original research

This change on 11 November 2010 from

• Rewriting source material in your own words, while substantially retaining the meaning of the references, is not considered to be original research.

to

• Articles should be written in your own words while substantially retaining the meaning of the source material.

by SV is not a reasonable summary of the WP:PLAGIARISM guideline and is much more in keeping with SV's own personal opinion of using text copied without modification from PD sources such as the EB1911. The previous sentence is much more accurate and useful description for this specific policy. For this reason I am reverting to the previous wording. -- PBS (talk) 19:00, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Evaluation of sources as OR?

I've been running into a situation where the evaluation of sources is described as OR, see for example below:

• The above is a combination of original research which we dont do and actual genuine concerns via RSN discussion, permalink, plus the one below.
• Once more, you are using a non-expert source to attack the credibility of biographer. That is OR and Tendentious.
• You've given nothing in the above to show that he is. All looks like opinion and OR to me via RSN discussion, Archives and so on

As far as I know, evaluation of sources is not considered WP:OR in Wikipedia terms. I would like to clarify this. If this is not the case, should a statement to this effect be added to the page? K.e.coffman (talk) 02:31, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

You are correct. The first paragraph of this policy states, "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages." Research is often an essential part of determining whether a source is reliable or a point of view significant. RS would be totally nonfunctional if we were not allowed to argue over whether a source was reliable. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:44, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

@Someguy1221: Thank you for the clarification. Since this issue comes up on a regular basis, would there be any objection to modifying the statement as follows:

• Currently: "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages."
• Suggested: "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages; specifically, evaluation of sources by editors is not original research. (See Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources)."

Or perhaps as a note, following "...does not apply to talk pages"? K.e.coffman (talk) 19:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I object to the change suggested by K.e.coffman because it could be viewed as a limitation; if the change were made, someone would use it to delete discussion on a talk page because it is some form of original research on a talk page other than evaluating a source. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

That makes sense. How about: "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages.?

References

K.e.coffman (talk) 20:20, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Maybe make it more a positive example (which then means it probably should be placed somewhere in the body as to explain such allowed OR usage. Something akin to "Wikipedia talk pages are generally not held to the NOR requirement. Some activities related to the development of an article that may seem like original research, such as source evaluation, discussions on weight and merit of inclusion, and wording choices, are considered necessary elements towards building an encyclopedia and are thus allowed on talk pages. Editors are reminded that all other policies and guidelines (in particular WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:BLP) still apply to these talk pages, and talk pages are not to be used as forums for aspects not related towards building of an encyclopedia." --MASEM (t) 20:29, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

This looks good to me. Perhaps anchor it to WP:OKOR (as in "when OR is okay") or WP:TPOR ("talk page OR")? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:38, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

While I agree Masem's looks good, I would rather see it as an instruction creep and prefer the shorter version, a bit expanded:

"This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards."

There is so much to say which arguments are OK and which are not. For some situations we even have essays to this end, like "Which arguments are not to use in AfD discussions." Staszek Lem (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

The shorter version works as well. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:44, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Since there's be no further input, I implemented the last suggestion: diff, with my addition (in bold) "...evaluate article content and sources...". Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:13, 29 January 2017 (UTC)