Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org

Jguk, please be reasonable - religious tolerance cites it's sources, everything's not made up. Don't make arbitrary edits like that. YOu don't have anything personal against them, do you? Izehar (talk) 13:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

- Religious tolerance is a biased, one sided source and cannot be used as a reference. Check e.g the information they have about Rajneesh, omitting the poisoning of food with Salmonella. But external links to the site are okay. Andries 13:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  - From [1]: "A number of sources have reported that spiritual devotees of Rajneesh had spread salmonella on a local restaurant's salad bar in order to reduce voter turnout on a measure that would have restricted the group's activities. Allegedly, 751 people were affected by the bacteria". Is your objection that he used the term "alleged"? (So would a newspaper.) Firebug 13:17, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    - - Oh, I overlooked that. The salmonella attacks are a proven fact by now and this shows the double standards that the website uses when assessing positive and critical information. reference for the salmonella attack Carter, Lewis, F. Lewis, Carriers of Tales: On Assessing Credibility of Apostate and Other Outsider Accounts of Religious Practices published in the book The Politics of Religious Apostasy: The Role of Apostates in the Transformation of Religious Movements edited by David G. Bromley Westport, CT, Praeger Publishers, 1998. ISBN 0-275-95508-7 Andries 13:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      - And why doesn't the article mention the now undisputed fact that the ashram management in Oregon solicited homeless people to the ashram in order to give the ashram a majority in voting? Why does the website always gives such a one-sided view of the matter? Andries 13:32, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        Well, the article seems to concentrate primarily on the Rajneesh cult's theology and origins. You're not arguing that the information there is inaccurate, just that it doesn't contain specific (negative) facts you think it should. Firebug 13:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        An article that does not mention Rajneesh' 73 or 93 Rolls Royces as a source of public disapproval is probably wilfully vague, but instead writes about "religious and cultural differences" and does not deserve to be referenced. Andries 13:54, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Why not cite the primary or secondary sources that religioustolerance uses, rather than using it as a tertiary source? Nandesuka 13:12, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps the other sources are dead-tree books, and OCRT is a handy source because they're a free website available at a mouse click rather than having to order from Amazon. Firebug 13:18, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  - The last time I checked, Wikipedia:Verifiability didn't have a section saying that it was OK to skimp on references because books aren't cyber enough. Nandesuka 13:20, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That may be, all I know is that they have a section called references and they are citing sources. Jguk mush make a consensus to remove them as a reference - he can't do it on his own. Edit-warring will not get him anywhere. Izehar (talk) 13:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's more a case that if you believe something is reliable as a reference, you need to defend it. The onus is always on someone who wishes to include something in Wikipedia to justify why it should remain - not the other way round. At least some of us are discussing things now.

Izehar - the point remains that Religioustolerance.org is effectively one man's blog, and that of a man with no academic training and stature in the subject. Yes, it cites its sources - but then so does an undergraduate essay. It also mis-cites its sources and draws conclusions that are unsupported by them. I have no problem with that - virtually all the essays are Bruce Robinson's opinion pieces, and he is entitled to hold whatever opinion he wants. But all this does mean that they are inappropriate as an academic resource.

Nandesuka makes a useful point - just because religioustolerance.org is unsuitable, because it cites its sources it could be used to help find appropriate academic sources. I have no difficulty at all in that - but in that case Wikipedia should cite the original academic source, not religioustolerance.org.

However, any "stand back and have a look at what Religioustolerance.org really is" analysis will conclude that it is of limited, if any, academic value. I'm also concerned that the English Wikipedia is the sixth highest site linking into religioustolerance.org [2]. Ideally we should have no links to it, jguk 13:32, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You say that we are the #6 source of links to OCRT. According to that same reference page, #1 is BBC News. #8 is MSN Encarta. #9 is CNN. Looks like it is generally considered a reputable source. Firebug 13:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why in the world does it make sense to cite an editorial that in turn cites a primary or secondary source, rather than citing the primary or secondary source directly? The characterization of these articles as weblog articles is, it seems to me, perfectly apposite. The female genital cutting articles is a great example. Are you seriously suggesting that we can't remove links that are redundant if they have a citation or two in them? Nandesuka 13:20, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am surprised by the controversy. I have been using OCRT for years (longer than I have been using Wikipedia) and they adhere to the same NPOV philosophy as we do. The fact that it is largely the work of one man, to me, only serves to underscore the brilliance of the accomplishment. Carolynparrishfan 14:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Convenience" of a website versus "dead-tree books"

From WP:V:

Personal websites and blogs are not acceptable as sources, except on the rare occasion that a well-known person, 
or a known professional journalist or researcher in a relevant field, has set up such a website. Remember that it is 
easy for anybody to create a website and to claim to be an expert in a certain field, or to start an "expert group", 
"human rights group", church, or other type of association. Several million people have created their own blogs in 
the last few years. They are not regarded as acceptable sources for Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources for 
more information.

This isn't "just anyone", they've been around for 10 years. Furthermore, it isn't a "personal" website, it is a website on a specific subject that is relevant to these articles. The point of that paragraph is not that everything on the web is inaccurate and can't be cited, but rather that we shouldn't be randomly citing blogs, random opinion sites, and so forth. Firebug 13:25, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
- Who are they, then? Can you describe their expertise in any way whatsoever without relying on "Well, they get a lot of traffic from google searches?" If they are experts, what are their credentials? Can you demonstrate that credible academic sources rely on them or cite them? If not — and so far I haven't seen any argument that doesn't amount to "They get a lot of traffic, and that's why Wikipedia should be a link farm for them and generate more traffic for them" — then they are, in fact, a random opinion site.

To put it into perspective, Wikipedia articles are not allowed to rely on Wikipedia articles as an authority. Unless you can demonstrate that religioustolerance.org has some independent standing as an authority on these issues, then relying on them as such is even worse than relying on another Wikipedia article. Nandesuka 13:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What, precisely, are you looking for? What kind of credentials do you think that someone needs to have in order to write articles about issues related to religion and religious tolerance? To me, the fact that the author (a) does it for a living, (b) has done this for a decade, (c) does cite his sources and act in an academically responsible and generally NPOV manner, and (d) is very popular - all of this cumulatively is more than enough to be a verifiable source. As I pointed out on the deletion page for this non-policy, by your criteria we couldn't cite microsoft.com since Bill Gates doesn't have a college degree in computer science. Firebug 13:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Firebug, what makes you think he does it for a living? The site makes it clear he is retired. It also states its aim to be a non-profit organisation and publishes its 2003 budget, which doesn't specify any wage going to Robinson. Indeed, it states:

In early 2004, we hired our first staff member -- a part-time office manager. This has freed up the rest of us to do creative work on the web site: updating existing essays and adding new essays. Our short-term goal is to be able to continue this staff member as a permanent position. Our very long range goal is to pay a salary to our main author and coordinator so that the OCRT can hire a replacement religious generalist at a reasonable wage when our present author is no longer able to serve, either through burnout, disability, or death. He is currently 67 years of age. Only then will group be likely to continue into the future.

Please read their budget, jguk 13:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am looking for "credentials". Bill Gates has credentials ("Founded a computer software company that does XXX billion dollars of revenue per year."); a college degree is not the only credential possible. What credentials do the authors of religioustolerance.org have, other than "Their website is popular." Nandesuka 13:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But how do you distinguish credentials from popularity, in this view? After all, the only reason Bill Gates is a billionaire is because his software is popular. Obviously an organization on religious tolerance isn't going to get rich. Firebug 13:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to point c) the author does not cite his sources in a NPOV way. Everything that contradicts his view is omitted, made a charicature of, marginalized, lumped togetether, and even ridiculed as the Rajneesh article proves with its reference of a single critic of Rajneesh' name to a vagina. That makes a very biased impression to me. It stated aim is not to write in a NPOV manner but to promote religious tolerance. Andries 13:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that I had a similar issue with user:Zappaz who inserted long quotes from religious tolerance into to the article cult. Eventually the references to religious tolerance was dropped in favor or direct references. Andries

Look, maybe you should file a RfC to get opinions on whether a website which cites specific sources is a reliable source. Consensus is required before making any changes though. Izehar (talk) 13:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We're discussing the point here, Izehar. If you wish to list this page on RfC, please do so. Also, please feel free to actually contribute to this discussion here, jguk 13:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We don't need opinions when we have official policies, such as Wikipedia:Verifiability, and guidelines such as Wikipedia:Reliable sources to tell us what sources are reliable.

Another quote is relevant here:

 Beware false authority
 Would you trust a plumber to fill your cavities? Likewise, you should probably not trust someone who has a Ph.D. in 
 plant biology to tell you about quantum mechanics. Just as actors in TV commercials don white lab coats to make 
 viewers think they are serious scientists, people with degrees in one field are not necessarily experts in any other. 
 Watch out for false claims of authority.
 Try to use sources who have degrees in the field they are discussing. The more reputable ones are affiliated with 
 academic institutions. The most reputable have written textbooks in their field for the undergraduate level or higher:
 these authors can be expected to have a broad, authoritative grasp of their subject.

So, what exactly are religioustolerance.org's credentials again? Nandesuka 13:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So what you're saying is that we can't cite Bill Gates as an authority on computer science because he doesn't have that ALL-IMPORTANT college degree. Gotcha. Firebug 13:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Wikipedia policies require us to cite credible, verifiable, and reliable sources. What are the credentials that make religioustolerance.org credible, verifiable, and reliable? Nandesuka 13:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's already been listed on MFD. And forcing people to come to YOUR page to discuss issues on YOUR terms is flagrantly inappropriate. Firebug 13:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please read their credentials. You say it's not a personal website, but that link includes the following paragraph:

Almost all of the over 2,780 essays and menus on this web site were written by our main author, Bruce A. Robinson. He is a graduate of the University of Toronto, class of 1959, with a BaSc (Bachelor of Applied Science) degree in Engineering Physics. He worked for a large multi-national chemical company for 38 years before taking a "golden handshake" and early retirement during a company downsizing. During his employment, he functioned as a specialist in the development of electronic instrumentation, as a computer programmer working in process computing, and as a group leader. Technical writing formed a major part of his work assignment.

You might also be interested in the history of the group. The website not at all secretive about what it is and who their writer(s) are. Indeed, it is quite open about their lack of academic stature. It is an honest site, but not suitable to be quoted as a reference or a link, jguk 13:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How can a single author produce 2,780 high quality essays with sources? That seems very unlikely. Andries 13:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding credentials: [3] and [4] describe some of the commendations (and criticisms) the site has received. Highlights: a four-star rating from Encyclopedia Britannica ("Canadian nondenominational society whose stated mission is to 'promote the understanding and tolerance of minority religions; expose religious hatred and misinformation; and supply information on controversial religious topics to help you reach your own decisions.' Includes well-informed profiles of a variety of religious traditions, as well as in-depth considerations of particularly controversial religious topics."). From the American Library Association: " The information is very well-done and balanced. The scope of the information is very thorough. In addition, the individual entries are well-done whether the religion is controversial or not. For example, the information on Satanism is very balanced and informative. The entry cuts through the scare tactics, misinformation and hype and presents a balanced picture on Satanism. The other entries are equally as well balanced and thorough. In most cases, the online articles have references and further web-sites to explore." (This review was from 1996, when the site was less developed than it currently is.) Commendations have come from various academic organizations: Schoolzone, which evaluates Internet sites for the British public schools, gave it a "highly recommended rating." Also, "TagTeacherNet has recommended our site to its 24,400 members, most of whom are teachers." There are numerous others. Firebug 14:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Website "awards" are two a penny, and the factors used in coming up with these comments are different from the considerations needed to decide whether something is a useful, citable academic reference, jguk 14:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There are other websites that have received praises including the website to which I am connected, but that does not mean that it can be used as a references for facts within an article. External links is a different matter and I generally oppose Jguk's removal of them. Andries 14:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with just listing it in "external links" is that it does not warn the reader what they are about to see. It says we recommend reading it, but does not highlight that it is a pop site rather than an academic site. If it were only added in external links with a brief explanation that it is a non-academic site essentially only has text from one non-academic individual, I would not mind so much (though my preference would be not to have the site anywhere on WP at all), jguk 14:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Let us choose that as a compromise. Then at least a lot of the edit warring will stop. Andries 14:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I want to state that academics frequently blunder on the subject of cults and new religious movement, not only people without formal education, not only religious tolerance. The most notorious example was when James R. Lewis who declared Aum Shinrikyo innocent at a press conference. He was there together with J. Gordon Melton, according to the Washington Post. [5]. I think it is because people (including academics) tend to make overly broad generalizations on this very diverse subject. I have more blunders by academics on request. Andries 14:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've now stated clearly on the project page what the proposed new guidelines are. I have divided the "references" and "external links" issues into two, and given two alternatives on the "external links" point.

Also, I should note that, on reflection, it would have been better to have made comments on all the talk pages of the affected articles from the start rather than just to make the edits in the first place. I have always preferred to be bold, but I should have realised that any reliability of sources issue is likely to be controversial, jguk 15:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Reliability

I can understand jguk's reluctance to have religioustolerance.org be cited directly as a source, though I disagree with his method of deleting all references to it without first discussing it. I have a different reason for objecting to the use of religioustolerance.org as a source: it has advertising. No source of information that relies on advertising for funding can ever be reliable. --Angr (t·c) 14:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Don't pretty much all newspapers rely on advertising for funding? TacoDeposit 14:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they do. And they all have to be careful what they print for fear of alienating their advertisers. --Angr (t·c) 14:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sensible

I particularly like the part of the proposal that reads:

"if it is to be in Wikipedia, that information should be sourced from elsewhere"

This does not sound at all unreasonable to me. Since the main contention here seems to be that this engineer and his few friends in Toronto are concocting stuff off the top of their heads, it only makes good sense to ask that you find at least one more reliable source that concurs with them... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:12, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Closely related issue in Wikipedia

Most of the entries at the website of the University of Virginia were written by students and so sometimes the quality is very poor including factual mistakes. [6] [7] Sometimes the quality is good. Can we address this in a similar was as the religious tolerance website? Andries 15:37, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I hope so. Personally a Wikipedia:Verifiability/University of Virginia discussion page seems sensible to me - as well as similar pages to discuss other possibly inappropriate sources that are cited in multiple articles. Unfortunately the way I've got us here to this serious discussion of the reliability of this website has meant some users are trying to kill this idea at birth. Referencing is fundamentally important if Wikipedia is to be taken more seriously - we should encourage good referencing using reliable sources throughout the encyclopaedia, jguk 20:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No blanket forbidding of sources, please.

I do not think we should have subpages of wp:v that blanket forbid certain references. I believe it is acceptable - possibly even a good idea - to have a central place where comments and opinions about the reliability and usefulness of a certain source can be stated and discussed.

However, the suitability of a particular reference should be a matter for each article that cites it. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 22:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is bogus

This whole proposal is bogus, for a thousand reasons that have been mentioned above. Just thought I too would chime in with my opinion.Tommstein 22:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Troubling

Does anyone else find it troubling that people are attempting to dismiss this (and other) sites based on the author rather than the content? This parallels the critics of Wikipedia who dismiss it because it is not written by "experts". There are some blogs that are far superior to books, and some books far superior to some blogs. Just because something is published in book form or printed in a newspaper doesn't automatically make it superior and more authoritative.

There also needs to be distinction between facts and opinions. "Facts" need to be "scholarly" or from a reputable source. Anyone can have "opinions". Whether these "opinions" are included in articles should be a matter of editorial judgment based on how notable these "opinions" are. Should Wikipedia include opinions from religioustolerance.org? I would think in certain cases it would be appropriate, since this is a highly ranked website. In any case, all opinions should be clearly marked as such, and opposing opinions presented as necessary. Sortan 22:49, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]