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In Your House on WWE PPV page

At the moment all In Your House pay-per-views are listed as ‘In Your House’ without reference to which one is which. While I am aware at the time they aired they were simply ‘In Your House’, doesn’t it seem logical to categorise them into ‘In Your House (2), In Your House (3)’ etc?.

Bearing in mind this is a chronological page. For viewers it’d make it a lot easier to read, especially as events took place in the same year. Same with No Mercy ‘99 (UK). I think it’s best to have the category in brackets though to indicate it isn’t the name of the PPV’s themselves but as a sequential list. Note this would only apply to PPV’s up to Ground Zero when ‘In Your House’ became a subtitle.

I also think it’d be best to move In Your House pages to ‘In Your House (3)’ for example rather than ‘In Your House 3’, akin to other PPV’s but in regard to years. Xc4TNS (talk) 00:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Xc4TNS first point, I agree with and I actually tried making that change but was reverted due to what you had stated in which they were simply titled "In Your House" for those first few. The second point I don't agree with. I'd lean more to putting the month and year as the disambiguation in parenthesis than the event number, but I think the current titles are fine due to the retroactive renaming. JDC808 ♫ 05:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I think it needs to be changed. As for the "In Your House" pages it's fine as it is, as long as it mentions the retroactive naming in the page summary. Xc4TNS (talk) 12:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Reposting what I wrote on the talk page of WWE PPV/Livestreaming events…

I disagree with this. Every PPV listed on the page bears the exact specific title name of the PPV on the day that it aired.

No Mercy (UK) was not the name of the PPV. It was simply No Mercy. And writing (UK) is redundant when right next to the PPV name it lists the city it was in. There was only one No Mercy event in the UK, so it’s not hard at all to decipher which one it is.

As for the In Your House events. Those events never have been numbered. Ever. It was only in the UK, on the Silver Vision home video releases, that they received numbers. During the build up to those shows, on TV, in WWF Magazine or online, numbers were not used. On the actual PPVs themselves, numbers are not shown anywhere. Nor as an onscreen graphic or spoken by any announcers or wrestlers. Adding numbers next to them, on this specific page in the listing, will make zero difference especially when the dates are right next to the events. This isn’t like WrestleMania or WCW’s Clash Of The Champions (at least during the early years anyway) which actually used numbers for those events. The first 6 In Your House events are also the only ones to simply use the In Your House name. Beginning with the April ‘96 event is when they started adding sub-names to the titles. Those events, even more-so, do not need numbers because they all have different sub-names. With the exception of In Your House: Beware of Dog 2, which used the number 2 on the on-screen graphics during that show and Jim Ross on commentary also spoke it. And besides all that, the individual In Your House event pages on WP have the numbers noted on them, so it’s not like you’re gonna click on an IYH event on this page and it’s gonna take you to a random IYH PPV. OldSkool01 (talk) 13:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I understand that No Mercy 99 was not literally called No Mercy UK, the point I am making though is the PPV/Livestreaming page is a large page and when events with the same name happen in the same year it's more logical to decipher one from the other. It's more logical to categorise events based on number than just date. Even if IYH 2 for example is a retroactive name it still somewhat makes sense to use numbers on a list. Hell you could even add taglines of events in small font below the main header.

I understand that the naming is based on name at the time of broadcasting but putting numbers in parenthesis doesn't affect that, it just makes it easier to navigate whilst also paying homage to retroactive naming. Especially helpful when different events have the same name in the same year. Deciphering one from the other and adding more info on the page is not false information, it's just adding more detail. Why is it a problem if there is more detail on a page? Xc4TNS (talk) 19:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@Xc4TNS could even add a footnote to the first few that clarifies they were just "In Your House" with no number or subtitle JDC808 ♫ 22:09, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Or just don’t put a number or subtitle. I don’t think that would require a note. OldSkool01 (talk) 18:26, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Seems like a wise idea, it distincts one event from another whilst noting that they have been named retroactively. Once again, more info on a page is not a bad thing. I can understand undoing an edit if it isn’t factually correct but just being petty over making a page easier to navigate seems illogical. Xc4TNS (talk) 13:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

If there were no dates and locations on the table then I’d say yes, you make a great point. But there are dates and locations literally right next to the titles of each PPV. That’s what distincts one from the other. How does adding a superfluous number to the title make it any easier to distinct? When you mention WrestleMania 3 to wrestling fans, they all know which event you’re talking about. They remember Hogan-Andre and Savage-Steamboat. You think anybody knows what happened at In Your House 3? They’re gonna say “Which one was that?”. And they’d ask the exact the same question if you say In Your House (September 1995). Point is, adding a number, that was never in the title to begin with, makes zero difference in distinguishing one from the other. OldSkool01 (talk) 11:21, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Adding In Your House 4 is still way more distinguishable than it being In Your House Oct (1995). If the names were used retroactively, as they are on the WWE network, it still makes more sense to use numbers and subtitles as on the Cagematch website. I do agree it should be clear it's a retroactive name. As long as it notes that numbers and subtitles were retroactive then why is it so bad to add? More info isn't a bad thing.

I think simplicity is better at times on wikipedia, but if info technically isn't wrong then why is it bad to add?. 3 people on this page already believe that adding numbers and even subtitles isn't a bad thing, as long as it's noted to be retroactive. The page is already bloated, simply listing numbers is hardly going to make the page worse.

I feel like adding the number and subtitle in small font below the header is a reasonable solution, or even the number with a note. Xc4TNS (talk) 00:01, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

The subtitles are already there for the In Your House PPVs that actually had subtitles (from April 1996 forward). No need to add subtitles to events that never had them. It wasn’t until many years later, I believe with the creation of the 24/7 on demand service in 2004, that WWE decided to retroactively give those early IYH shows a subtitle for some reason. I look at it like this, if Wikipedia was around in the 1990s and we were updating this page monthly as those events were happening, how would we handle it? We certainly wouldn’t add non-existent subtitles that are retroactively coming many years in the future. And there would be no need to number them either because numbers were not part of the advertising at all for those shows. The only people who are familiar with those IYH ppvs having numbers, are fans in the UK who group up watching the Silver Vision VHS tapes that numbered the events after the fact. That still doesn’t make it the accurate title. The same reason we don’t go back and rename the first WrestleMania on this list as “WrestleMania 1” because that wasn’t the name of the event. It wasn’t until a year later that it retroactively became known as WrestleMania 1. Again, the individual WP pages for those first 6 IYH events have it all explained and are also numbered. So I don’t see an issue where people will get confused about which one is which. OldSkool01 (talk) 13:44, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Again, if we make it clear that the events were retroactively named then what is the problem? Adding more detail to an article shouldn't be an issue. I would understand if I'm straight out adding something that is false but on a chronological page I don't see why adding numbers is necessarily a problem. Likewise with adding a distinct colour to network exclusive events.

Removing edits because ‘it’s unnecessary’ doesn’t seem reasonable. Xc4TNS (talk) 17:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

But you ARE adding something that is false. I feel like I’m going in circles here. Adding numbers to events that never had numbers is ridiculous. This list shows the actual title of the events as they were named on the day the events aired. Adding numbers to events adds absolutely nothing to this article, especially when the dates and locations of the events are right next to the titles. Also, as I’ve already mentioned, adding color distinction to non-branded network exclusive events is redudant and unnecessary because there is already a notes section that tells us which events are network exclusives. OldSkool01 (talk) 08:24, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

And yet WrestleMania I is at that title. And since WWE have themselves added the numbers and subtitles, we're not making anything up. We'd just be using retronyms for natural disambiguation purposes. While we're talking about a list, not the individual articles, the principle carries over. oknazevad (talk) 14:48, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

@OldSkool01 With all due respect, the only person who is arguing the point is you. Other commenters on here are not disagreeing with what I'm saying. I'm not making any random edits with no respect to your standpoint, hence why I took it to the talk page.

It doesn't even matter if events are retroactively named, the WWE still recognizes those events by their retroactive names. As long as the article mentions that the naming is retroactive there is literally no problem. It feels redundant even making this point because if I make the edit you'll just undo it and complain. Xc4TNS (talk) 14:58, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

@Xc4TNS The individual pages for each of those PPVs mentions the retroactive name changes in their respective articles. There is zero need to add all of that to the PPV list. It’s superfluous information that is not needed on this page. You can read all of that on their respective pages. And again, the names on this list are what they were called on the day that they aired. Retroactive name changes are for the individual articles. I can’t see anybody being confused as to which In Your House events they are when the date, location and main event are all listed right next to eachother on the same line. Adding a number will not only be an inaccurate title, but it will not make a single bit of difference to the person reading it. For example, I highly doubt someone will see “In Your House - Nashville, TN - July 23, 1995 - Diesel vs. Sid for the WWF Title in a Lumberjack match” and be like “Yeah, I’m still confused as to which once this is. If only there was a number next to it, then I’d know exactly which one it is.” That would be ridiculous. And as for me being the only one arguing this, you are the only one making these edits. Nobody else is making these edits. They’ve been listed this way for years and only you for some reason feel the need to change it. OldSkool01 (talk) 20:39, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

@OldSkool01 I mean, if I had just skimmed the list and saw that entry, I wouldn't know if that was the 2nd or 4th In Your House without clicking on it. I'd only see that it was an In Your House that happened in July 1995. I would have to scroll back or click on the link to find out which it was. It's not like the annual events that happen only once a year. There were several In Your Houses per year. Later In Your Houses have a number and/or subtitle so we can distinguish them easily without clicking on them. The earlier ones don't. And the claim of him being the only one making the edits is kinda false. I tried to make these same edits in the past but you strongly objected and I didn't press the issue any further. JDC808 ♫ 01:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@JDC808 “I wouldn’t know if that was the 2nd or 4th In Your House without clicking on it”. I’m still waiting for an answer as to why it is important that someone knows which number it is. If you can’t figure out which event it is by the date, location and main event, how is a number going to make any difference? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m asking a legit question. Also none of the later In Your Houses have a number, only subtitles which started with Good Friends, Better Enemies in April ‘96. Maybe I’m missing an aspect of this. Is it because fans in the UK only know them by their Silver Vision VHS release numbers? If so, that’s fine, but that still doesn’t make them accurate titles. Coliseum Video in the US didn’t use any numbers on their IYH VHS releases, so the numbers thing was never an issue here. OldSkool01 (talk) 16:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@OldSkool01 (my app didn't ping me that you tagged me): Not gonna repeat what others have said in response to you here, but just to say, I'm not from the UK, I'm from the US, and ever since I started working on wrestling articles, etc., I've only known them by numbers, not dates (or even years, but years don't work for these since there were multiple per year). JDC808 ♫ 07:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I’ve already made adjustments on the page a few days ago. Added a note next to In Your House 2-6. Read further down this page for my reasoning. OldSkool01 (talk) 18:48, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

He feels the need to change it because it aids readers. And I agree. Especially since it also brings the list in line with how the events are titled on the WWE Network/Peacock (where the dates are omitted, but the numbers included) making it easier for a reader to find and view the event for themselves. Frankly, the "must be exactly as it was the day it was broadcast" mentality is not in line with any Wikipedia policy or guideline. While [[WP:COMMONNAME]] is an article titling guideline, the underlying principle of "make it as recognizable and easy to find for readers as possible" still holds for a list. And these events are best known now, in 2024, with numbers. oknazevad (talk) 17:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Peacock is very inconsistent though. If the Peacock listings are what we’re going by, then the list needs to remove all the roman numerals from the WrestleManias, because Peacock only uses standard numbers. Peacock also includes Royal Rumble ‘88 and The Big Event in the PPV section. Which is probably why we get people on here every year adding them to the PPV list on WP because they see it that way on the Network and Peacock. Also Peacock only lists the 1995-1997 events under the In Your House section. The 1998-1999 In Your House events aren’t listed there. So Peacock/the Network shouldn’t be the standard we go by. OldSkool01 (talk) 22:18, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

There are a lot of sources that list the numbers as part of the title such as Cagematch, SmackDown Hotel, TRJWrestling, IMDb. In fact most sources list numbers in the In Your House title. It's not like it's purely being made up for the sake of it. Yes, I am aware the name is retroactive but in all honesty I think it doesn't matter. I think most people are more likely to remember 'In Your House 4' rather than 'In Your House (Oct 1995)'. I get that's my opinion but others on here are backing up what I'm saying. It makes logical sense to use the numbers especially on a chronological page. Is there much need to debate this more?. Xc4TNS (talk) 00:57, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I’m willing to compromise. Take a look at the edit I just made. I made a note where it says “Sequentially known as In Your House 2” and 3, 4, 5 and 6. The first IYH doesn’t need that note, the same way the first WrestleMania doesn’t need that note. It’s pretty self explanatory. As for the IYH events starting with Good Friends, Better Enemies, those don’t need notes either because they already have the subtitles to distinguish them. And if you wanna use the WWE Network/Peacock as an example, they don’t use numbers on any of the IYH events after 6. I think this is a fair compromise. OldSkool01 (talk) 17:52, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Okay fair, however I do think naming IYH 2-6 as the main title with the notes mentioning it's been retroactively named would make more sense. Falls in line with making the article easier to read. Xc4TNS (talk) 18:09, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Easier to read? So now people are gonna have trouble moving their eyes slightly to the right of the screen? Come on now. The notes make it even more clear which events they are. I feel like this is a very fair compromise. OldSkool01 (talk) 18:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I respect the compromise, but it technically would take up less space to just put it in parentheses. If it's in parentheses it's technically not referring to the actual events name it's just chronologically listing them whilst paying homage to the fact they were just aired as In Your House. It's up to you. To add, I do also think noting IYH 7-16 is fair as most sources online list as such as well as the names of the pages. From Ground Zero on it doesn't matter as In Your House becomes a subtitle. Xc4TNS (talk) 00:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry I didn’t reply earlier. No problem with addiing the notes to IYH 7-16. That’s fine. But I still think the notes are better than the parentheses. OldSkool01 (talk) 14:55, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

If we’re being consistent, we’ll have to remove all of the WrestleMania numbers between 31 and 39 too, which have also been marketed without numbers, I believe. As far as the In Your House PPVs go… well, we utilise WP:SMALLTEXT all the time throughout Wikipedia to aid reader understanding. Something such as In Your House [line break] ”Seasons Beatings”. isn’t too unreasonable. Sceptre (talk) 06:57, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect. Every WrestleMania has used a number, with the exception of Manias 1 and 16. Every year WWE sells WrestleMania merchandise with that year’s number on it, whether the PPV graphic uses it or not. So they do advertise them with numbers. The In Your House events on the other hand, were never advertised and promoted with numbers. Ever, not once. As for “Season’s Beatings”, that wasn’t the name of the PPV. That was a name that was added retroactively years later for some reason. OldSkool01 (talk) 11:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Removal of citations for films, television series, video games, music videos, and other similar media

According to this edit, we don't need citations for entries like video games. Also if you look at the articles of most actors and musicians, you see there are no cited sources for their filmography section; e.g. films, television series, video games, music videos, and etc. For example, see Jason Statham. I think we should follow the same pattern for WP:PW articles. Your thoughts? --Mann Mann (talk) 07:56, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Disagree in the case of WWE wrestlers. Their video games pass the notability test so edits like the one you pointed out are correct (it was done on the Alexa Bliss page as well). Smaller players like Statham on the other hand needs a second look - but there should not be a general rule like what you are appearing to suggest. Addicted4517 (talk) 23:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Jason Knight (wrestler) § Birth date, birth name

Input from experienced project members would be welcome in the discussion at Talk:Jason Knight (wrestler) § Birth date, birth name. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Your edit summary for adding this thread to this Project talk page stated "this is of interest to the outlaw garbage-wrestling indy mudshow fans".

If you're trying to genuinely encourage interest in this topic, that language isn't helpful or productive. I would hope you were saying it in jest, but we have no way of actually knowing that, particularly as there are many people online who use that negative language with complete sincerity. CeltBrowne (talk) 23:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

As a member of the cult of Cornette, I think my depiction is accurate to the state of the wrestling involved. Perhaps you are one of those fans of that sort of wrestling. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:56, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

you commented there, so what I posted was sucessful

It worked in spite of what you said, not because of it. This is Wikipedia, WP:NOTAFORUM, and posting things just to antagonise people is admonishable. CeltBrowne (talk) 06:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I genuinely mixed up the two. I saw "wrestler", thought "wasn't there a discussion at ... WT:MMA some time ago ...^[2021] looks good, let's ask here." I'm thankful for Chris troutman copying my request to the right location, and now that I had a look at the difference between MMA and professional wrestling, I also understand why mixing these up is upsetting especially to MMA fans. I guess it's a common mistake and that makes it more annoying. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:25, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@ToBeFree, what's common about it? It says "professional wrestler." If the subject was a mixed martial artist, it would say that. Saying it's common is an excuse. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 15:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

ROH on HonorClub vs. Ring of Honor Wrestling

ROH has renamed its Ring of Honor Wrestling TV show to ROH on HonorClub since March 2023. Reliable sources also use this new name; e.g. [1][2]. So which one is preferred? Ring of Honor Wrestling or ROH on HonorClub? Does HonorClub sound promotional? --Mann Mann (talk) 15:48, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mann Mann, ROH hasn't had a TV deal since it was purchased by Tony Khan. That's when Honor Club was relaunched just without any tiers. In March 2023. Honor Club is like WWE Network, a subscription service. It's still Ring of Honor Wrestling, but it's also known as ROH Honor Club TV. It's also shortened to ROH on Honor Club, ROH Wrestling TV, and ROH TV. If you see any of the others names in sources, it still Ring of Honor Wrestling unless ROH officially changes it to ROH Honor Club TV. Articles have other names shows, movies, albums, etc. are known as. Plus, it's been Ring of Honor Wrestling since the show started on HDnet in 2009. Just leave it as is. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 15:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mr. C.C.: So as you say, Ring of Honor Wrestling is fine for post-March 2023 ROH TV stuff. For example, see Hikaru Shida:

• A. Shida made her Ring of Honor (ROH) debut on the March 14, 2024 episode of Ring of Honor Wrestling, where she answered ROH Women's World Champion Athena's open challenge for the title at Supercard of Honor.
• B. Shida made her Ring of Honor (ROH) debut on the March 14, 2024 episode of ROH on HonorClub, where she answered ROH Women's World Champion Athena's open challenge for the title at Supercard of Honor.

A is preferred to B, right? --Mann Mann (talk) 02:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mann Mann, correct. You wouldn't say ROH on HDNet when they were on that network. It was Ring of Honor Wrestling. HDNet was just where they aired like HonorClub. It's just where it airs. You wouldn't AEW Dynamite on TBS or Monday Night Raw on USA, you wouldn't do it here for Ring of Honor Wrestling. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 02:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)