Talk:Sabra and Shatila massacre

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Quadell (talk | contribs) at 14:03, 15 November 2004 (→‎Compromise attempt). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Uri asks why I deleted "anarchist" from the description of Noam Chomsky here, and also put the word back. Two points: (1) Whether Chomsky is an anarchist (as an aside, he describes himself as a "libertarian socialist" and draws an equivalence with anarchism) is irrelevant to the quote given; (2) The term "anarchist" is a complex and usually misinterpreted label, and often applied as a means of discrediting a speaker, in much the same way as labels are applied in irrelevant contexts (eg "Bob the satanist says Coca Cola is better than Pepsi" or "Fred the communist says ".

Chomsky has been known for a last time for a series of political views, that are most often classified as "anarchist". His writings stem out of his political philosophy; therefore it is important to mention his political platform to describe them properly.

Given the general bias in the ME pages of Wiki, I believe that (2) is the reason for its inclusion here. Certainly it adds nothing to the quote presented, in which case one does have to ask the questions: Why mention it? If the deleted adjective is not intended to convey some meaning, why re-place it after deletion? And, finally, if the meaning is not (2), above, then it must be (1), in which case: What does this add to the quote from Chomsky which is so important it needs stating and preserving by calling him an "anarchist"?

As I said earlier, the question of Chomsky's being an anarchist is of importance here. There's an important difference between the examples you brought above and the question with Chomsky: Bob's religious and Fred's political views are irrelevant to their position with regard to Pepsi; on the other hand it is obvious that Chomsky's political views have an influence on his historical analysis. --Uri

This is not a trivial point - it is merely a subtle aspect of the more general bias visible throughout Wiki's middle east pages.

Call him leftist, then. It covers both socialism and anarchism. (I haven't followed the debate, so I don't know if his political inclinations are relevant or not.) -- GayCom

Chomsky's political views are not simply leftists; they are widely considered extreme leftist; now I don't care whether it's anarchist or not, but I think it would be against the truth to describe him as a moderate (by default), whereas he's really a radical. --Uri

What's the deal with the spelling? I have only seen "Shatila." Could someone explain (in the article) why there are two spellings (or transliterations), and why one is prefered over the other? Slrubenstein

"Shatila" is a more faithful transcription; the Arabic original does not have a shadda over the [l] so it's short. "Chatila" is merely the French rendition of the same name. --Uri

Without getting into the politics, can we then agree to at least change the spelling from French to English? Danny

I agree. --Uri
ditto Slrubenstein
The report included the evidence of Israeli army personnel, as well as political figures and Phalange officers. In the report, published in the spring of 1983, the Commission stated that there was no evidence that Israeli units took part in the massacre or were even were aware of it.

The last part is not true. The Kahan commission recorded lots of evidence that Israeli forces and even some Israeli politicians knew of the massacre while it was still going on. When I get a chance I'll quote from the report itself. -- bdm

Could someone add that the Belgian case has recently been withdrawn following a law change (one of the parties involved should actually be related to Belgium in some way, and furthermore the complaint should not target any foreign leader in exercise). I didn't find the original news report but here are two alternative sources: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indictsharon/message/137 http://www.truthnews.net/world/2003090075.htm

This article is *very* POV. I will be putting in some edits when I have time, but for now, I will restore some of the links that were removed by vandals (pointing to Chomsky and anti-Sharon sites... go figure...).

Oh, and Chomsky is *NOT* a "radical leftist" (which implies Communist), he is a social Anarchist. Anarchism is about as diammetrically opposed to Communism as you can get. Considering that the vast majority of the world is overwhelmingly opposed to US/Israeli militarism and aggression, I don't think it is anywhere near accurate to describe Chomsky's views as "radical". --Gatto 19:40, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, without getting into the "leftist" issue, if Chomsky (and indeed "social Anarchism") isn't "radical" then it is hard to imagine who or what is. In any event, please read from the top of this Edit page down, the issues of Chomsky's politics and radicalism have already been discussed. Jayjg 03:05, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The sentence "While the dead included innocent civilians, many if not most were armed fighters" gives the impression that the Palestinian casualties were largely combatants. How can this be consistent with the facts stated further down the article, that the massacre was committed by just 150 Phalangists, who suffered only two casualties?

Indeed. I have deleted: "While the dead included innocent civilians, many if not most were armed fighters." as it is simply untrue and there is not one shred of evidence to support the claim. As has been mentioned, this article is highly POV and needs re-writing. I am unsure whether Robert Fisk is a radical liberal, certainly people in the UK don't use that political description, it's a N. American term which is unused in Britain. A more important point, however, is that the assumption appears to be that the politics of individuals either validates or invalidates their words. In a serious article such notions, surely, have no place. Is everyone to be given a politcal label?
It should also be pointed out that Fisk was one of a group of 3 journalists who were the first to enter the camps, in fact not all the Phalange had, at that point, moved out.
It should also be pointed out that the SLA were also involved.

John Ball 30/07/04 9:30'

Hi Jayjg. I see that You have removed my remark Pirs replay and my response to him from this page and wonder why. I thought the meaning with this page was to communicate regarding the articles or am I wrong? John

Hi John. Actually, I've just moved the current conversation down to the bottom of the page, where it's easier to find. I also had some trouble trying to locate this (your latest) comment and respond to it. I'll leave this conversation here, but it makes things much easier if you put new conversation at the bottom of the page. Also, I strongly recommend getting a userid; they're free. Jayjg 07:00, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Links

I think that the link: Damour (http://www.free-lebanon.com/LFPNews/hobeika_damour/hobeika_damour.html) Damour massacre is unnecessary as it does not relate directly to the article, perhaps an article on the Damour Massacre itself is necessary though?

Also this link: From Israel to Damascus (http://www.israeltodamascus.com/index.htm) – a book written by Elie Hobeika's bodyguard that includes the description of how Hobeika carried out the massacre. Seems to be not working, I would like to delete these, any objections? Please advise.

Joseph E. Saad (August 5th, 2004)

Thanks for noticing that, I've fixed the links. Jayjg 21:54, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
No problem you are welcome, but why the Damour massacre link, I am puzzled? - Joseph E. Saad (August 5th, 2004)
I'm not sure, but I believe it was put in there as an example of a similar massacre in Lebanon during the same timeframe, and perhaps as contributing to the Phalangist rationale for the Sabra and Shatila Massacre. Jayjg 01:44, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Well I suspect, but have no proof, that it was put there to diminish the tragedy that was this massacre, by showing the PLO or Palestinians in a bad light. In any case I will leave it, but still feel quite strongly that it should be moved to a better spot, namely an article that deals with that particular massacre. I guess what does it matter anyway? There have been so many massacres, and killings in the Middle East, what a legacy that will be left for the future generations. Thanks for the input, and cooperation.Joseph 08:23, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

"At one time it was a radio question aimed at Elie Hobeika asking what to do with the women and children and intercepted by an Israeli liaison officer (he replied "This is the last time you're going to ask me a question like that, you know exactly what to do", Phalange troops at the spot laughing having heard that)"

Could someone provide me a s source for this communictions?

A bit of googling reveals that it may be from a transcript of the BBC Panorama programme "The accused": [1]

"The Israelis had a forward command post about 200 metres away which overlooked the camps. There were Phalangists stationed on the roof with the Israelis. It was around this time, 7 o'clock on Thursday evening that an Israeli officer stationed on the roof overheard a deeply troubling conversation. He was standing close to Elie Hobeika, the Leader of the Phalange operation. A soldier inside the camps came on the radio. He told Hobeika he was holding 50 women and children. What should he do with them? Hobeika replied "That's the last time you're going to ask me a question like that. You know exactly what to do". There was raucous laughter from the other Phalangists. The Israeli officer reported this to his superior, General Amos Yuron. There would be more worrying reports to the Yuron, but beyond warning Elie Hobeika not to harm civilians the General took no further action that night. Ariel Sharon was now at a cabinet meeting in Jerusalem. Ministers heard the Phalange were now in the camps. Deputy Prime Minister David Levy was deeply troubled." - pir 19:36, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Norwegian observers

I've tried to add some information regarding events in Sabra and Shatila-story. Jayjg seems to be very eager to have them removed and I wonder why. I'm new to Wikipedia so the editing might not be according to the rules and in that case I'd appreciate any advice. John (user 80.91.33.33) 0410.04. 09.20 gmt

Hi John, there's nothing wrong with your editing, but this article touches a subject that is very sensitive for some. Maybe you could provide a source for the information you added, and the names of the journalist and diplomat? - pir 12:32, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi Pir. My name is John Harbo and I worked as a correspondent for a Norwegian paper in Beirut at the time, so I am the source for the information given. I was myself in the camp on friday, on time alone and the other together with charge d'affares Gunnar Flakstad at the Norwegian embassy. As You see from what I added the observations we did in the camps were limited, but I added it because it supplements the information given later in the article that the first journalists entered the camps on saturday morning. In addition at least one american journalist entered the camp friday afternoon. I'll try to check his name and give it to You. This information can be checked by looking at the chapter "Direct responsibility" in The Kahane report. regards John 04.10.04 14.50

Hi John. As pir says, the article is controversial at best, so any additions need to be attributed. Also, it would be preferable if you got yourself a User name. Jayjg 18:53, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi Jayjg. Sorry. I didn't check at the bottom. Thought the page were divided into different subjects so that here was one discussion running regarding the events and another on the links to this article. Have also got a user id as You recomended. And by the way: the american journalist that also observed the Phalangists on friday was Loren Jenkins of The Washington Post. John E

Great. Now, what would you like to include, and why is it relevant? Please note that your existing edit does not mesh well with the existing text, and in particular contradicts some of it. Including the names of the journalists etc. would be helpful. Please bring the text here for discussion first before including it. Also, please sign your edits with four tilde signs like this: ~~~~ Jayjg 15:20, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)


the additional information I want to include is in line with what I have proposed earlier. It is relevant becase the information given in the article refers only to israeli soldiers as eywitnesses. The persons I refer to are, as far as I know, the only idependent observers that actually entered the part of the camps that the phalangists controlled (they did not controll the entire camp-area), during the time of the massacers. Jaijg says it does not fit in with the existing text and contradicts part of it. As far as I see it contradicts only the statement that the first journalists were allowed into the camps on saturday. That is correct, but still the fact remains that a few managed to enter on friday. Its a difference between beeing allowed to enter and manage to pass the israeli-controlled lines during a military situation. Jayjg recommends that the names om the journalists and the diplomat should be included. This been an encyclopedia I feel that the focus on the identity of the persons mentioned is not needed - as long as it is given on this discussion-page - and accepted as valid.

I suggest the following add, placed after the existing sentence: Others reportet what they were witnessing to their superiors.

On friday, while the camps were still sealed off, a few independent observers managed tho enter. Among them were foreign journalists and one diplomat, a Norwegian. They observed Phalangists during their cleaning up operations, removing dead bodies from destroyed houses in the Shatila camp.

Then the article can continue with: Phalangists kept coming to the israelis for food............ If the content is accepted on the basis of the information given, I feel this text-change should fit in, but I'm of course open to other suggestions. ~~~~ John E

As it is, it's anonymous; Encyclopedias mention individuals all the time. If you can include the names of the individuals, and produce some outside confirmation that it actually happened (aside from essentially anonymous comments on a Talk: page) then I have no problem with it. Jayjg 15:03, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)


The changes I have proposed is anonymous as it will appear in the article. According to my opinion this fits in with the style used in this article. Major actors as to what took place - Hobeika, Yaron and Sharon - is mentioned by name. Other witnesses - like individual israeli soldiers observing part of the massacers - is not named. Jayjg calls the information given on the talk page as essentiallly anonymoous. I have given my name and professsional background. That should explain my position for beeing in the camps, observing what I did on that friday. I was twice in Shatila. Both times encountering the phalangists and was ordered to leave. The incident were the phalangists were observed busy clearing out dead bodies, took place when I was together with the Norwegian diplomat, mr. Flakstad. He is now dead. As I mentioned earlier, my information can be verified by a reference to it in the rapport given by the Kahan-commision. It was also inluded in a documentary made by the ABC-network on the massacers. I hope this additional information is enough to verify the information I try to include. John E

I can't locate the information in the Kahan commission report (here is a link [2]); can you show me where it is please? Jayjg 17:14, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In the chapter named "The Direct Responsibility" there is a pharagraph referring to testimony given by foreign doctors and health personell regarding the identity of the troops in the camp. At the end it says that my testemony to the commission confirms this information. John E 08:30 25 Oct 2004 (GMT)

John, the testimony in the Kahan commission report refers to you confirming the identities of two individiuals, not the Phalangists clearing out dead bodies. Have I missed something? Jayjg 21:43, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is what the report says: "Therefore, the testimony of these three witnesses also indicates that the only military force seen in the area was a Phalangist one. A similar conclusion can be drawn from the statement of Norwegian journalist John Harbo (no. 62)." It means that my testimony confirms the identity of the soldiers observed in the camps. Regarding the fact that I observed the phalangists clearing out dead bodies, You have to take my world for it. To be quite honest I can not see why that should be so difficult. It should be an established fact that the phalangists were in the camps.

John E 07:00 26 Oct 2004 (GMT)

Right, but it's not an established fact that you saw them clearing out bodies; as much as I believe you, Wikipedia doesn't really take "you have to take my word for it" as a legitimate reference. Jayjg 19:35, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
We're going to see this more and more, though as Wikipedia becomes more important. We need a way to deal with things like this, and it seems that our "no original research rule" (and our rule against "sutobiography") really do become problematic here. John, have you ever published any of this anywhere? That would solve the problem: assuming you are who you say you are, you are certainly a quotable source and we could just quote what you've written elsewhere. The (perverse) problem is that we really have no way currently to accommodate someone coming forward like this with (presumably valid, but previously unpublished) eyewitness material. - Jmabel | Talk 22:52, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
John's statement does not change any material facts. His presence is acknowledged by the report and he also mentioned an ABC broadcast. So, what's the fuss about him posting his account? Are you guys trying to install yourself as self-appointed approvers of every word related to Israel? If so, you may want to reread WP editing rules, which require no prior approval from anybody. HistoryBuffEr 02:06, 2004 Oct 27 (UTC)
Prove the poster is John Harbo. Once you've done that, we'll move on to the other issues. Jayjg 02:57, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This from the many who just chided me (on Talk:History of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict) for my skepticism? In any event, I've raised the question on the Village Pump of how we can deal with material like this. If the material is already published elsewhere (e.g. in a Norwegian newspaper) we can just cite that and this is simple, but if not? As I say, we probably need to solve this problem in general. This is a great test case.
John, am I correct that you are the John Harbo who writes for Aftenposten? In which case can we settle this by having our skeptic, Jayjg, email you at jon.harbo@aftenposten.no to confirm that you are this person and you can reply to him? Jay, I assume that you are not so skeptical as to doubt that [[3]] establishes that Aftenposten has a reporter by that name with this email address. And, John if that's not who you are, is there some other newspaper, etc. that you are connected to through which we could similarly validate that you are how you say you are?
Still, Wikipedia as an institution needs a better way to handle this sort of thing. Sorry to be putting you through this sort of hassle. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:16, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)
Yes, WP needs a solution for the problem that any clueless dweeb can override an expert here, but that's another issue. This guy here just wants to add one largely immaterial and harmless sentence, and I see no need to submit him to colonoscopy over it. HistoryBuffEr 06:40, 2004 Oct 27 (UTC)
Well, yes, we need a solution for the problem that "any clueless dweeb can override an expert", but I believe we need a solution for the problem I was pointing up, as well. Do you disagree? Because I don't think I wrote anything here to deserve the tone of your response that starts out by saying "yes" and then turns into an attack (maybe on me, maybe on Jay, I really can't tell in the midst of the sarcasm). -- Jmabel | Talk 23:50, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)
Hey, bad coffee day? :) My comment was about WP in general, not directed at you. HistoryBuffEr 00:19, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

I agree that the information I try to add is minor and should be harmless. But since there is so much debate regarding it I'll try to solve the two major problems it has caused. Regarding my identity. I am working for Aftenposten and the link given is to one of my articles on the net. Several others can be found if You do a google-search and in addition search for Aftenposten within the results. Also: any of You might send en e-mail to my adress: john.harbo@aftenposten.no and I'll confirm it.

Regarding publication of my observations. Its done in an article in Aftenposten on sept. 20th. It's for obvious resons not on the net and its not in the papers electronical base, only on paper. Whats written about my observations on friday here is the following. "When we tried to drive into the camp on friday we were stopped by soldiers which were busy collecting and removing dead bodies." I can get a photo-copy of the article, which is in norwegian, and fax or mail it to for example Jayjg. I also have a copy of the ABC program on vhs-tape. I could find it and post a quote of my statement there which regards the observation I have tryed to add in the wikipedia-article. Then any of You could contact ABC and the might perhaps be helpful and check the program if they have it in their files. If this is not acceptable I'm open to other suggestions to settle this dispute.

John E 08:50 27 Oct 2004 (GMT)

Jay, I repeat: given that we seem to have established that this is, indeed John Harbo, can we consider this settled?

John, just put the information in the article and cite your own article Aftenposten article. Aftenposten is a perfectly valid source, the fact that you are the same person who wrote the article does not make it less so. Wikipedia:Cite your sources explains the appropriate way to cite a magazine or newspaper article. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:50, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

It works for me, though it still doesn't solve the problem of "clueless dweebs" over-riding experts. ;-) Jayjg 02:09, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)


The ariticle itself is now protected so I post my proposed add and reference here as a start.

"On friday, while the camps still were sealed off, a few indpendent observers managed to enter. Among them a norwegian journalist and a norwegian diplomat which observed Phalangists during their cleaning up operations, remowing dead bodies from destroyed houses in the Shatila camp". (Referred in article in the newspaper Aftenposten sept. 20th. 1982 written by its Middle East-correspondent John Harbo, which were also qouted with the same information on ABC News "Close up, Beirut Massacers", broadcasted Jan. 7th. 1983).

I'we suggested earlier where it could fit in, so if the content and attrution to Aftenposten and ABC is done correctly, then the dispute should be solved. (By the way I'm not sure weather the attribution to the publishes sources should be part of the article, or not. The little trick with the pointed arrow just seems to work with web-quotations.)

And finally to clarify. This is what was said in the ABC-program, which were made by Bill Redeker. His voice: "20 hours after the Phalange occupied Sabra and Chatila a Norwegian journalist tries to enter but is blocked by a bulldozer, its scoop filled with bodies." Then my statement on camera describing the situation: "The bulldozer appears from the right side, from a side street. It backs into the main street and faces us. And then we see the grab filled with dead bodies. If it was full it would be about 8 to 10 bodies". John E 15:58 28 Oct 2004 (GMT)

(In Wikipedia MoS format and good English) add at the appropriate place in the flow of text:
On Friday, while the camps still were sealed off, a few independent observers managed to enter. Among them were a Norwegian journalist and a Norwegian diplomat, who observed Phalangists during their cleanup operations, removing dead bodies from destroyed houses in the Shatila camp". [Harbo, 1982]
Then down in the reference section:
  • Harbo, John, (September 20, 1982). ideally get actual article name here. Aftenposten. Middle East correspondent Harbo was also quoted with the same information on ABC News "Close up, Beirut Massacres", broadcast January 7, 1983.
Jmabel | Talk 05:19, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

I asume Jayjg also agrees, so that the add can be posted when the article again is open for editing?

John E 09.52 29 Oct 2004 (GMT)

Looks good to me. The following paragraph should also be revised to remove the contradiction about when journalists first entered the camp. Jayjg 17:33, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Lebanon invasion

Re. the dispute of
The PLO had been using Lebanon as a staging grounds for attacks on Israel's northern border, and on that pretext Israel justified its invasion of southern Lebanon on June 6, 1982.

vs.

The PLO had been using Lebanon as a staging grounds for attacks on Israel's northern border, and in response Israel invaded southern Lebanon on June 6, 1982.

Noam Chomsky writes in Fateful Triangle that the actual reason/pretext for the invasion of Lebanon given at the time was the assassination attempt against Israeli ambassador Shlomo Argov in London by Abu Nidal. Abu Nidal was a rival to the PLO at that time, in fact he had been condemned to death by the PLO ; at the trial of the three members of the Abu Nidal team, the commander was later found to be an Iraqi secret service agent.
Also, during the time preceding the invasion, there were apparently almost no PLO attacks on Israel (two if I remember well). I can look up some references if you like. - pir 23:32, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That would be helpful, pir. Noam Chomsky is an unreliable source about everything except linguistics. Jayjg 14:20, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Another gratuitous and unsubstantiated slap against the credibility Noam Chomsky. Is this opinion based on disagreements with his anti-Zionist politics or is it just anti-semitism? In any case, I suspect that he is a more reliable source than a Wikipedian editor. Alberuni 14:46, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Let's maintain a collegial tone please. - pir 15:11, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm dismayed; I thought we were starting on a new footing, Alberuni. Did our discussion yesterday mean nothing? Jayjg 15:20, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oh, was that too antagonistic? You should be free to slander Noam Chomsky and dismiss authors whom you dislike and no one should dispute your baseless accusations. But at least we will have a collegial atmosphere. Alberuni 16:28, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, of course it was too antagonistic; good faith would recognize that. Dismissing Chomsky as an unreliable source is not the same thing as attacking you. See more below. Jayjg 17:04, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Regarding the pretext for invasion, there are many sources that contend that Israel's massive invasion of Lebanon (and other military activities) were/are driven more by Israel's insatiable thirst for water (much like America's insatiable thirst for oil drives military policy) and desire to control Litani River water resources, not by sporadic and militarily ineffective provocations of PLO militants. [4] [5] [6] [7] Alberuni 14:46, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Alberuni, I think you are conflagrating the official pretext with the real reasons driving the war. Let's not go into the "real reasons" stuff at this point, otherwise we'll get into a huge edit conflict (it would be more appropriate to discuss it in the Operation Peace for Galilee article anyway). Let's just deal with the pretext for now. - pir 15:11, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Very wise, pir. "Real reasons" discussions aka Conspiracy theory discussions, tend to get heated. Jayjg 15:29, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Which is why the article should describe the "reason" as the "stated reason" the "purported reason" the "ostensible reason": or the "pretext" -- because it wasn't the real reason. Alberuni 16:28, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Stated reason" is the only NPOV descriptor of that lot. "Pretext", "purported", and "ostensible" all imply that the "real" reason was something else. Jayjg 17:08, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Chomsky appears to be quite reliable in this case at least. Although Fateful Triangle has only a couple of general refernces at this point (how the start of the invasion was reported in the US press), a quick google search reveals that this version of the events is widely accepted:

  • Chomsky : "Having failed to elicit the desired PLO reaction, Israel simply manufactured a pretext for its long-planned invasion of June 1982, claiming that it was in retaliation for an attempt to assassinate the Israeli Ambassador to London; the attempt, as Israel was aware, was carried out by the terrorist Abu Nidal organization that had been at war with the PLO for years and did not so much as have an office in Lebanon."[8]
  • "[Abu Nidal's] most famous attack on an Israeli came in June 1982, when three gunmen seriously wounded then-ambassador Shlomo Argov in London, giving Menachem Begin's government the excuse it needed to implement then-defense minster Ariel Sharon's plan to invade Lebanon and push the PLO out of Beirut. Told it was Abu Nidal's men, not Arafat's, who shot Argov, then-chief of staff Rafael Eitan was reported to have said, "Nidal, Shmidal, they're all the same." (Haaretz, 2004 [9])
  • "[Abu Nidal's] organization attempted to assassinate Israel's ambassador to Britain, Shlomo Argov in June 1982. The attack on Argov, which left him seriously injured, triggered then-defense minister Ariel Sharon's invasion of Lebanon, which aimed to repel Palestinian forces controlled by Yasser Arafat. Abu Nidal's group had broken from Arafat's Fatah organization years before and had even plotted attempts on Arafat's life." (Haaretz, 2002 [10])
  • "A suspected attempt by Abu Nidal gunmen on the life of Israel's ambassador to Britain in 1982 triggered Israel's massive invasion of Lebanon that year." (BBC, 2002 [11])
  • "In 1982, Abu Nidal gunmen shot and critically wounded Israel's ambassador in London. Israel blamed Arafat's PLO and launched a huge invasion of Lebanon, driving Arafat and his forces out of the country." (USA today, 2003 [12])
  • "June 3, 1982: Attempted assassination of Shlomo Argov, Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom. The attack will trigger the war Israel waged in Lebanon against the PLO presence." ( International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, (Israel) [13])

Interestingly, and as is often the case, the Israeli press is more open as to the deceitful character of the official pretext - I guess hasbara is mainly for the US media. We'll have problems writing this up in a NPOV yet factually accurate manner ;) - pir 15:06, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'll dig up some more info about PLO attacks on north ISrael prior to the invasion later - sorry no time now. -pir 15:14, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Regarding Chomsky's reliablity in general, I recommend reading this [14], or if you have more time, this: [15] . Chomsky is a POV warrior who would make most Wikipedia POV warriors look like rank amateurs by comparison. Jayjg 15:26, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Regarding "Chomsky's writings on the Arab-Israeli conflict [which] are a mass of distortions, misrepresentations and plain falsehoods" please see this: [16]. Jayjg 17:04, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sources for 700-800 deaths

Israeli figures, based on IDF intelligence, cite a figure of 700-800, a similar figure was released by Lebanese authorities and most Western sources.

How similar are the figures? Which "Lebanese authorities"? And why should Western sources matter, unless they counted bodies? This needs to be fixed. ----style 15:32, 2004 Oct 18 (UTC)

AGREED. There is an unfortunate tendency to credit "Western" and Israeli sources as if they are above suspicion while "non-Western" accounts are dismissed as "unverifiable". See, for instance, Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Operation_Days_of_Penitence_Fatalities Alberuni 16:32, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the pointer to VFD. --style 16:51, 2004 Oct 18 (UTC)
"Estimates of the number killed range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence. Palestinians claim 3,000 to 3,500 dead and call the action "genocide"." [17] "The International Red Cross report of the incident indicates only 328 confirmed deaths, while more liberal estimates put the total at about 700. " [18] "More than 800 people were killed or went missing in a three-day killing spree by Lebanese Christian militiamen allowed into the camps by Israeli soldiers. Some estimates, however, put the death toll at 1,800. " [19] "857 Pal. & Leb. k. by Christian militia in Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in 1982." [20] "The exact death toll for the massacre remains unknown: estimates vary from 800 and 2 ,000." [21] "Estimates of the death toll range from 700 to 2,000. " [22] Jayjg 17:01, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Palestine Facts is a mickey mouse, partisan website. It's claims will need to be verified. The Campus Times letter is just wrong. The IRC buried at least 1000. The ABC news article isn't an important source. Did ABC count bodies? The other sources state ranges, but not whether Israeli, Western or Lebanese (Christian or Muslim) sources actually made the claims. I need to know exactly who made the estimates, not just the range of estimates. Currently the article states that Lebanese and Western sources claim only 700-800 deaths. You have not sufficiently supported this. --style 17:24, 2004 Oct 18 (UTC)
Apparently the IRC stated 328 confirmed deaths; why do you think they "buried at least 1000"? Also, the Lebanese police stated 460. Your opinions about the validity of other sources are interesting; thanks for sharing them. I don't see you subjecting the higher estimates to the same rigorous inspection or conditions. Jayjg 17:29, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

United Nations General Assembly

We say "On December 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide," but the source is secondary, maybe tertiary. [23] Does anyone have a more solid citation for this? I've looked and can't find a chain of citation back to the resolution itself. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:26, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

Funny, the UNGA Resolution A/RES/37/123(A-F) is the first Google link if you simply highlight "December 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly" above and google it. HistoryBuffEr 06:39, 2004 Oct 23 (UTC)
Yes, I already resolved this in the article I was really working on (with you), I didn't think to come back here and comment. It was because I'd added search terms and didn't coincide with them on the spelling of one, because I had followed your spelling. Anyway, once this is unprotected, let's get the better citation into the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:05, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

Once again cut

The following seems to have been once again cut:

On December 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide. Sharon resigned as defense minister, but later became Israeli Prime Minister [24].

As remarked above, probably not the best citation (the first sentence here should cite the one HistoryBuffEr supplied) but the content seems factual and relevant. Is there any objection to restoring this? And if so, on what grounds? -- Jmabel | Talk 21:39, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

When information of the UN-condemnation and Sharons resignation is given in this way it seems to imply that they are connected. Would it not be more correct to say something like: On December 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide. After beeing criticized by the Kahan-commission Sharon resigned as defense minister, but later became Israeli Prime Minister. ~~~~ John E 10.39 (GMT) Nov 9.

I have no problem with that minor change. I will edit accordingly reinsert. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:09, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC) Looks like someone beat me to it. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:11, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Some Points and Questions to Ponder

1. The shooting of the Israeli ambassador in London was not, in itself, the "stated reason" for Israel's invasion. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. In the 11 months between the July 1981 Habib cease-fire and the June 1982 invasion, Israel recorded hundreds of terrorist attacks originating from PLO-controlled areas of southern Lebanon.

2. A "Phalangist militia numbering 1,500 was assembled."

Why then were only 150 sent into the camps? Why hold back 90% of the force? (I recall that reinforcements were necessary. Why? Were they readily available?)

3. These sentences in the article drip of POV:

"For two nights, from nightfall untill late into the night the Israeli military fired illuminating flares above the camps to assist the militia in their massacres"

"For the next 36 hours, the Phalangists massacred the inhabitants of the refugee camps with the assistance of the Israeli military."

"an Israeli tank crew saw several men, women and children being led to a stadium where they were to be interrogated or executed."

As if the IDF knowingly and premeditatedly was planning a massacre, a tank crew even knowing why some people were taken to a stadium.

4. "part of the camps that the phalangists controlled (they did not controll the entire camp-area)" [In this discussion page]

How can it be that after "two nights" or "36 hours" the entire camp was not under Phalangist control?

5. What was the population of the camps? How is it that in "36 hours" of alleged premeditated massacre, only hundreds (or even a few thousand) people were killed? Again, if this was the intent, why only send in 10% of the Phalangist force?

6. I think the reference to Damour is important for context. So is inclusion of the 1985 massacres at Shatila and Burj el Barajneh. (I believe Shatila was destroyed and never rebuilt.)

7. Lastly, I commend the effort to ascertain the number of dead, but two words of caution.

First, it is not atypical in such situations that many of those who are initially reported as "missing" turn up - alive. Needless to say, there is a high level of commotion and confusion. People are separated and a husband may report his wife missing even as the wife reports the husband missing.

Second, I recall (and believe that the Lebanese Police report states) that only a small number of dead were women and children, with a larger number being foreign PLO fighters.

(unsigned, but this is from Morley Harper)

I'm not going to try to reply to all of the above, especially because I am headed to bed right now, but a few immediate responses:
  1. On your point 5: Given the report that many of the dead were tortured before being killed, the length of time involved seems pretty much on the mark.
  2. It seems to me that, on the general history of countries investigating themselves, that we can reasonably assume that the Kahan Commission report places a "lower bound" on what occurred. Similarly, Al-Ahram'<nowiki>s reporting seems to me like a reasonable "upper bound", though I'd be open to suggestions of a different source for this purpose. I suppose one could argue that as the semi-official voice of the Egyptian government ''Al-Ahram'' might sometimes have reasons to go easy on Israel. Still, in a case like this, I doubt it. -- ~~~~

Regarding point 4. This camp-area consists of two parts, Sabra in the north and Shatila further south. South of Shatila there is a more open area. A fairly wide and open road marks the southern part om the camp. In the north Sabra blends into the streets om West-Beirut. During the massacre, for instance on friday, it was fairly easy to enter into the northern parts of Sabra. On friday the northern outskirts was not controlled by the Phalange. The situation on the southern outskirt of Shatila was quite different. The road ouside Shatila was desserted, but any phalangist (or for that matter IDF-soldiers in the area) could stop people from entering or leaving.

As far as I understand the phalangists entered the camps from the south. They were gathered at the airport which is also south of Shatila, but further in from the coast. They then probably moved up in a northerly direction as far as they reached during the time they spent in the camp. It is a densly populated area with lot of narrow side streets from the main street going south-norht. To control and clear up such an area therefore takes time and explains why they not controlled the entire camp-area - even after 36 hours.

~~~~ John E08.57 okt 28. (gmt)

The parties responsible, however, cited much lower numbers.

"The parties responsible, however, cited much lower numbers."? This recent insertion makes no sense; neither the Lebanese police nor the Kahan commission were responsible for massacre. In any event, it's not up to Wikipedia to assign blame; rather, the sources should be listed, and the reader should draw his or her own conclusion. Also, the sources of the ICRC claim have been deleted, as have the sources cited by the Kahan commission. I'm going to restore the version which simply listed the various estimates and sources. Jayjg 15:16, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Apology

For mistakenly reverting the page to a User page. --Viriditas 03:37, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

flipping back and forth between two radically different versions

Right now, we have two sides flipping back and forth between two radically different versions. This is like the Monty Python "Argument sketch". Simple alternating contradiction is not going to move things forward. I strongly recommend that someone list the specific issues that are currently in contention so that some sort of focused discussion can occur. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:51, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Right. One version closely resembles the stable version that has existed here for months. The other is a radically new version, essentially a completely new POV re-write by HistoryBuffEr. This is his consistent pattern, and he should know by now that he needs to propose his changes in Talk: first to gain consensus before trying to force them on the page. And I agree, he should indeed list the specific issues in the existing article that he disagrees with so some sort of focussed discussion can occur. Jayjg 02:51, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Who are you kidding? There's never consensus when Jayjg is involved. --Alberuni 04:29, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Summary of HistoryBuffEr's edits

  • Intro:

Added "with assistance of Israel".

  • Background

Just rephrased for readability and clarified claims. Main points:

  • Previous version (falsely) implied that 100,000 victims came about solely from infighting. Added Israeli invasions.
  • Attributed some obviously Israeli claims to Israel.
  • Events

Mainly rephrased for readability and clarified claims. Main points:

  • Israel reoccupied Beirut after the PLO forces left Beirut as agreed breaching firm guarantees ...
  • Clarified relationship Israel-Phalangists.
  • Added claim that Israel's claim of presence of PLO in the camps was a cover story (cited reference.)
  • Added that "the Israel military actively assisted" Phalangists (which is obvious from facts presented).
  • Added Harbo's tidbit.
  • Added NPOV "X claimed" to several statements.
  • On number of victims: cited all claims presented, leading with (presumably neutral) ICRC.
  • Added the UNGA statement.
  • Added Kahan commision para.
  • Israel's role in the massacre
  • Renamed from "Allegations against Israel". These are not mere allegations, this has been investigated and judgments made.
  • Replaced weasely and POV paraphrases of what the commision said with actual quotes.
  • Clarified the war-crimes lawsuit para to conform to facts.

HistoryBuffEr 02:48, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

Nice try. Explain the specific changes you want to make, what you want to change to what, and provide evidence that they are valid. Jayjg 02:52, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I can't decide which aphorism is more apt here: "Pot, kettle, black" or "He who lives in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". --Alberuni 04:31, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jayjg, are there any of HistoryBuffEr's edits that you consider acceptable? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:19, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

I'm sure there are, but I can't even tell what edits he's made. His brief summary above gives almost no indication of exactly what was changed, and it's hardly fair to other editors to force them to try to decipher exactly which edits his comments apply to. As for the summaries, they're hardly acceptable or neutral; for example, what he refers to as "clarified" and "obvious" means "my own POV". As well, the ICRC claim, which he heavily relies on, comes from a tertiary source; a review of a book which allegedly claims the ICRC reported this - HistoryBuffEr refuses to even allow note of this, and this is the "presumably neutral" estimate which should lead? Jayjg 16:13, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jayjg uses Talk pages to obstruct NPOV edits in articles

Jayjg demands that all changes to "stable" articles (meaning articles with an established Zionist POV that suits him) be discussed in Talk. Then he engages in his usual tactic of tendentious sophistry and argumentative rhetoric to obstruct any changes that don't fit his extremist Zionist POV. He is incapable of engaging in honest dialogue, he refuses to accept facts that don't fit his POV, he complains when asked to cite references for his unsubstantiated POV pushing, and so he should be ignored and reverted. --Alberuni 17:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing. If you have any suggestions about the article content itself, they would be most welcome. Jayjg 18:00, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Compromise attempt

Greetings all. I'm an outsider to all this, but I know many of the conflicting editors here, at least by reputation, and I'm hoping I can help to reach a compromise. I'm right now reviewing the two potential drafts. They're quite different, but they both seem to have merit. I know you guys aren't going to like each other, and that's fine with me, but my hope is that we can get this article NPOV and stable. My suggestion will come when I'm done poring over them. – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 01:27, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

It can't come soon enough, as far as I'm concerned. Good luck!! Jayjg 14:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I've read through both versions thoroughly. A few initial observations.

  1. According to our NPOV policy, this article must not say that Israel was responsible for the massacre, and it must not say that Israel was not responsible for the massacre. Sorry. Such judgements should be left to the reader. I think that's the gist of the debate. If everyone can agree on this, sincerely, then I think we can get this article stable. If not, then we can't.
  2. The article must say that many feel Israel is responsible, and that many feel Israel is not responsible. (It does now, in both versions, but this needs to be emphasized.)
  3. Everything stated as fact has to sound factual, and not accusational, to your opponents. For instance, take the sentence "This claim, which was disputed, was then used as a pretext for the subsequent massacre of civilians." The wording might seem to give the sentence a sense of moral outrage, and seems to place blame for the massacre on Israel, so it shouldn't be included as is. But the information in the sentence should be included in a non-accusational way.
  4. Much of the reverting seems to be personality-based, not content-based. What I mean is, many of you seem to reverting a change because of who authored it, more than because of the content of the change itself. Both sides appear guilty of this. I challenge all of you to look at each change, even if written by your enemy, as if your ally had written it. Things will go much smoother if you do.

Enough preliminaries. Let's get to the meat. I have placed a compromise version at Talk:Sabra and Shatila Massacre/AttemptedCompromise. It currently only includes the intro and Background section. (I thought I'd see if we could agree to this bit before I worked on other sections.)

I worked diligently and sincerely to come up with a compromise that used the best parts of each version, kept all relevant facts in, and removed the POV from both sides. Let me know what you think of it; I have no doubt it can be improved, and I welcome suggestions.

– Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 16:23, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

I second this as a good start, although I'm not sure about the word "notorious", it's judgmental, maybe "well-known"? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:59, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)
Good point. I changed it. – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 23:29, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

Quadell: I don't think that'll work.

  • You are not an impartial editor. Case closed as far as I am concerned, but I'll add more for the benefit of others:
  • You do not seem to understand what "compromise" means. Your "compromise" on the Munich article was to take the previous highly POV and confused version and add a tidbit or two, leaving it in pretty much the same state.
  • You have again started from a heavily biased article in this case.
  • You misunderstand NPOV. It is not POV to state facts, regardless of where the blame falls.
  • One example: You supposedly don't want to blame anyone, but your draft says "Infighting and massacres between various groups claimed up to 100,000 victims". That's blaming Lebanese + Palestinian infighting for 100,000 dead, isn't it? The problem is that is contrary to facts. Israel's two invasions have caused tens of thousands of deaths (min. 18,000). It even says so in the article, but couched as Lebanese blaming Palestinians for deaths caused by [Israeli] invasions. Your version does not even mention that Israel caused any deaths, does it? So, you are misstating facts and also blaming the wrong party.
  • I could go on, but your "compromise" on this article looks anything but, just like your previous one. Not to mention that "NPOV is not negotiable".

HistoryBuffEr 04:57, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)

Okay, a few comments:
  • I'm sorry that you don't see my edits as impartial. I assure you that I am working sincerely for an impartial version, and I have no interest in seeing either POV come out ahead. Out of curiosity, who would you consider to be an impartial editor?
  • I have started with both versions of the S&S article, and attempted to merge them. I did not start with one version and try to add bits to it. Why do you think I did?
  • In the sentence "Infighting and massacres between various groups claimed up to 100,000 victims", I was including Israel as one of the "various groups". The sentence could certainly be reworded. What would you suggest?
  • Please remember that this is not about whether this person or that person is impartial or biased. This is about whether the text is POV or not. If you don't like me, okay, but that's irrelevant. If you think the compromise version could be improved, then let's discuss.
Thanks, – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 14:03, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
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