Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tablighi Jamaat and allegations of terrorism

Tablighi Jamaat and allegations of terrorism

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I'm sorry to nominate an article for deletion that it looks like someone has put a good bit of work into, but this article just does not seem to be on an encyclopedic topic. Even the title of the article is a violation of the MOS guideline WP:ALLEGED--who has asserted that Tablighi Jamaat is connected to terrorism? The article doesn't say. There is one reference, an article in the Middle Eastern Quarterly, that does indeed make such an assertion, but one reference from what our Wiki article on MEQ calls "a publication of an American conservative think tank" will not a neutral article on "Tablighi Jamaat and allegations of terrorism" make. The long list at the end of the article of "Terrorist suspects alleged to have links to Tablighi Jamaat" is WP:SYNTH. Tablighi Jamaat is a large movement; of course it will have some members who are convicted of crimes. Should we have an article on, say, "Anglicanism and allegations of drug-dealing," containing a list of all of the people who have ever belonged to an Anglican church and later been convicted of drug-dealing? I think this article should be deleted, since it's essentially a negative POV-fork of the main article on the movement. CordeliaNaismith (talk) 16:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WRT the name -- I agree the article's basename should have been made clear it was addressing allegations.
1. When I started this article I started it under the name Allegations that Tablighi Jamaat has ties to terrorism. Administrator User:Jossi arbitrarily renamed it.
2. A concern over an article's name is not grounds for deletion.
3. Due to Jossi's rename the previous (procedural) {{afd}} was obfuscated: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations that Tablighi Jamaat has ties to terrorism. Geo Swan (talk) 17:08, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WRT comparisons to Anglicanism -- The nomination asks "Should we have an article on, say, 'Anglicanism and allegations of drug-dealing,' containing a list of all of the people who have ever belonged to an Anglican church and later been convicted of drug-dealing?" This is a straw argument. No one disputes that a very small minority of Anglicans have dealt drugs. But no one is suggesting that being an Anglican should automatically put an individual of being a drug-dealer or terrorist. Individuals are automatically falling under suspicion of ties to terrorism, in part, due to an alleged association to terrorism. For some of the Guantanamo captives the allegation of a tie to Tablighi Jamaat was the most serious allegation. Three Guantanamo captives died in custody on June 10, 2006. At the time the DoD claimed they were very dangerous men, committed terrorists. In September 2007, when the memos prepared for their review Boards were made public one of these men turned out to be one of the individuals for whom the most serious allegation was that he had a tie to the Tablighi Jamaat movement. Geo Swan (talk) 18:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks GeoSwan for your thoughtful response. Regarding the points you've made, the name Allegations that Tablighi Jamaat has ties to terrorism has the same problem regarding the WP:ALLEGED guideline (who is making this allegation?). Regarding your second point, I'm puzzled by how "the allegation of a tie to Tablighi Jamaat" might have been "the most serious allegation" for some of the Guantanamo captives. Tablighi Jamaat is a large movement--for example according to the main wiki article on the topic, 40% of UK mosques are Tablighi Jamaat. So, I'm very skeptical that simply "having a tie" to Tablighi Jaamat would represent a "serious allegation." Also, my rationale for deletion is that this article is a negative content fork on the subject of Tablighi Jaamat. Thanks,CordeliaNaismith (talk) 18:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Who is making the allegations? Western security officials, security officials in Totalitarian Islamic countries, pundits who are suspicious of muslims, in general. The article was renamed to Tablighi Jamaat and allegations of terrorism by U.S intelligence about six months after it was created. IIRC it Jossi's name was restored following a discussion at requested moves. Geo Swan (talk) 19:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the suspicions an association with TJ trigger are puzzling. Nevertheless they do trigger those suspicions, in some quarters, as you can see from Mana Shaman Allabardi al Tabi's allegations memos, among others. I think, in his particular case, the TJ allegation was the one the DoD considered the most serious. Geo Swan (talk) 20:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep well referenced encyclopedic article on a notable aspect of TJ. adding all this info to main article would violate WP:UNDUE. I can see the concerns about the title and the use of word alleged but what the most appropriate title is needs to be discussed on the article talk page not in an AfD.--Wikireader41 (talk) 22:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete

Browsing down the first ten of fifteen references, I found several primary documents that would be useful for original research, a link to an outfit associated with Daniel Pipes, a Hindu Times editorial piece, and a couple of broken links. I also found a couple of articles stating "the TJ says it does not have ties to ***" which is odd, considering this is an article about allegations it does in fact have those ties.

I did not find an article from the NY Times or The Guardian, nor did I find a reference from a reputable scholar published on a university press. Perhaps I missed them. True, the Hindu Times is a big outfit, but someone could perhaps claim the Hindu Times is a Hindu newspaper rather than a Muslim one, and this fact affects their POV. If this is a noteworthy article, it would require only a couple of quality, mainstream references to justify the article's existence. I didn't happen to notice any.

But, even assuming there are a couple of good sources, still if the quality of the sources I looked at are any indication of the overall quality of the sources, then I would have to think there's probably not much inside the article that is verifiable. So even if the article is noteworthy, anyone who feels strongly about keeping it should also be willing to get the references up to Wikipedia standards, because it looks like an editor might take a couple of hours to go through and tag a large percentage of the content.

And actually, I don't have an opinion on whether there are noteworthy allegations, perhaps there are. But judging from what I can see, it would be hard to know if the allegations in the article are the same ones which are noteworthy. I suspect the article goes beyond what (presumably? allegedly?) is alleged in the mainstream press, or it would not be resorting to original research and going outside the mainstream for its sources.

Thank you, Cordelia Naismith, for bringing this up. You are %100 on the mark.

Aquib (talk) 06:50, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really what do these references from NY times have to say about TJ [1], [2]. And maybe this source is not reliable either [3]. what quality of sources are you looking for if you think NYT is not reliable ???--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:31, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the useful links. The mainstream allegation in them is TJ, while staunchly nonpolitical and nonviolent, may be subject to exploitation or manipulation by terrorists. The terrorists may use the organization for shelter and travel, without TJ's knowledge.

The second sentence of the Wikipedia article in question states In recent years, allegations and concerns have risen about whether, or how much, the organization is linked to Islamic terrorist groups, such as Al Qaeda. I see no suggestions of linkage between TJ and the terrorists in the mainstream material you have provided, unless you are suggesting linkage as one might link airports and airlines to terrorists. So the second sentence of the WP article in question goes beyond the bounds of the mainstream material you provided. The second sentence is also sourced from the Middle East Quarterly, which is a conservative think tank rather than a mainstream news outlet. -Aquib (talk) 03:40, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, there are no "allegations of terrorism" in the mainstream sources, so the title of the article is a misrepresentation itself. Aquib (talk) 18:02, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really ! this is what NYT says "During their weeklong preparations, the men stayed in Raiwind, the headquarters of Tablighi Jamaat, a Muslim missionary group often described by terrorism experts as the antechamber of Al Qaeda and the Taliban."[4], that TJ is a peaceful nonviolent movement is complete OR. the appropriate title can be discussed on the article talk page as I have suggested above.--Wikireader41 (talk) 00:57, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Antechamber is a somewhat imprecise term in this context, but your point is taken. So I assume we have mainstream reports of the targeting of TJ members for recruitment by terrorists, as well as the use of TJ facilities and identities in order to facilitate movement. All this without the knowledge of the TJ organization.

The article is not neutral or verifiable, and it contains significant amounts of original research. The section listing detainees and their visits to TJ facilities is only topical when viewed as original research implying duplicity on the part of TJ. The theme of TJ duplicity goes beyond the mainstream allegations of exploitation. The portion of its content acceptable according to Wikipedia's criteria belongs in the main article.

If the article were rewritten to Wikipedia's standards, it would be a stub.

Aquib (talk) 16:45, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are the one doing OR. NY times is a reliable source. here is another article which talks about accusations against TJ by both FBI and MI5[5]. The article is not neutral or verifiable ???? maybe madrassah times would be more neutral and verifiable.--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good article. As in the NYT article you provided earlier, however, this Guardian article states the FBI and MI5 allegation is the targeting of TJ followers for recruitment by terrorists, there is no allegation of duplicity by TJ in this article.

Not sure why you are saying I disagree with your NYT articles, they are acceptable, they just don't allege duplicity by TJ itself. They weren't intended to. -Aquib (talk) 04:28, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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and here is another in depth study about TJ by Fund for Peace,[6] I quote "The TIJ resembles a revivalist movement more than a structured organization, but its secrecy and ties to Pakistan’s lawless frontier have caught the attention of counter-terrorism officials around the world—as has the tendency for the TIJ to surface on the periphery of numerous terrorism investigations."--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:57, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with the Fund for Peace organization, but they use Alex Alexiev from the Middle East Quarterly Review repeatedly as a source of criticisms and accusations. As I mentioned earlier, MEQR is a neo-conservative publication associated with Daniel Pipes. This paper is not from a top-tier, mainstream source, as one would expect to be used when authoring Wikipedia articles on controversial topics. As important and controversial as this issue is, there should be adequate material available from the quality mainstream outlets and scholars published by university presses. Aquib (talk) 05:01, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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And you also might be interested in what Center for Security Policy has to say about them.[7]. Again I quote "The estimated 15,000 Tablighi missionaries reportedly active in the United States present a serious national security problem. At best, they and their proxy groups form a powerful proselytizing movement that preaches extremism and disdain for religious tolerance, democracy, and separation of church and state. At worst, they represent an Islamist fifth column that aids and abets terrorism. Contrary to their benign treatment by scholars and academics, Tablighi Jamaat has more to do with political sedition than with religion."--Wikireader41 (talk) 03:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep — As pointed out by Aquib, some of the alleged links here are purely circumstantial, but some go beyond that, and overall, it seems worth reporting on them. This article is a subarticle of Tablighi Jamaat, so it's not a content fork. Some editors have expressed concerns about verifiability, so I'll point out that there are many reliable references from mainstream newspapers like the New York Times, The Guardian, etc. Bradycardia (talk) 02:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]