Category talk:Linux distributions

A way forward for this category

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Since this CFD recently resulted in deleting Category:All Linux Distributions and discussion will probably end soon about what to do with Category:Independent Linux distributions, I thought it was time to start a discussion about the rest of the sub-cats in Category:Linux distributions. The reason that Category:All Linux Distributions was created in the first place was that, with all the sub-cats here, most with hard to decipher naming, it is almost impossible for readers to know where to find any particular Linux distribution. While that new cat was deleted, the problem remains. I propose that we empty out all the subcats and make Category:Linux distributions a monolithic category with no sub-cats. That way it will simply be a listing of all distros, something that readers can actually make some use of and find distros in, unlike now. - Ahunt (talk) 14:43, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Note that the discussion on Category:Independent Linux distributions has ended and it has been deleted. - Ahunt (talk) 02:24, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay I have sent this to CfD to get some help, hopefully. - Ahunt (talk) 23:24, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

The CFD was closed a few days ago, with no helpful information or advice there and no other input here, either, so I have to conclude no one else really has any interest in this issue. So I will just go ahead and fix it on my own. Here is what I plan to do: invoke WP:DUPCAT and make this category a non-diffusing category ( Done) and then add all the articles on actual Linux distributions to it, so that will form a complete distribution list within the category. When that work is complete I'll post some more about what we may do with the sub-categories here, if anything. Complaints will be accepted once this first phase is done. - Ahunt (talk) 22:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay phase one as described above is complete. - Ahunt (talk) 01:57, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Ahunt, Complaints will be accepted once this first phase is done. Looking for [Expecting] trouble? Lol. On a more serious note, I think Marcocapelle did offer some useful advice about considering the individual categories rather than disposing of a whole group. I also think Bearcat was right about starting a discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Linux and if it has been abandoned, then you are [should be] well aware you can take the discussion to the broader community in a venue such as the Villiage pump. I also disagree with the deletion of Category:Independent Linux distributions proposed by Guy Macon and probably would have voted to keep it if I knew about the discussion and had a chance to review the category myself because the rationale for deletion did not make any sense to me since the typical meaning of an "independent distribution" usually refers to one that is "built from scratch" and not "based upon" another distribution (such as how Linux Mint is based upon Ubuntu for example). So, the rationale that all distributions are independent is simply incorrect the way the term is commonly used in the Linux world. That would have been a useful category had it been more understood... Huggums537 (talk) 05:42, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for joining the discussion. Any idea how to sort out the mess of the sub-categories? You can see a complete diagram of them in the collapsed section at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 June 26#Category:Linux distributions. - Ahunt (talk) 12:28, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Ahunt, I came across the discussion because it was linked in an edit summary of a page I was watching, and I saw the diagram, but I think you would probably get better ideas from people far more experienced than me at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) as suggested and linked to previously. Huggums537 (talk) 22:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay  Done at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Looking_for_Category:Linux_distributions_organization_ideas. - Ahunt (talk) 00:37, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Ahunt The non-diffusing makes the most sense, and since it is now implemented for this category, I don't see a need for making major changes to the subcategories. The Linux ecosystem is diverse, and the subcategories are a good reflex of that. I see some issues though, like how subcategories of Category:Linux distributions by processor architecture shouldn't include subcategories, but only articles (i.e. remove subcategories on Category:X86-64 Linux distributions. Categories for Distro-based distributions likely should be non-diffusing as well, eg Category:Debian-based distributions.Hfnreiwjfd (talk) 01:53, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

See that was one of my problems in looking at what to do with the sub-cats: Category:Linux distributions by processor architecture doesn't make any sense without sub-sub-cats for each architecture type. - Ahunt (talk) 14:57, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Ahunt true. last i checked wikipedia guides don't detail if categories can be used just to store other categories... but i think for example Category:Linux distributions by package management could be renamed to Category:Linux package managers, which then can categorize articles. Maybe other categories could follow this idea. Edit: well thinking again, if renamed the category would need to be moved to Category:Linux. Yeah... I'm not going to overthink this. Hfnreiwjfd (talk) 22:11, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay, the village Pump discussion has been archived at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 37 with no useful suggestions there either. So as far as I am concerned I am done here. We got the job half done, with the category now containing a list of distros, which is better than nothing, but I can't see any way forward on fixing the category mess. Unless anyone has anything left to add in the next few days, I'll just close this discussion. - Ahunt (talk) 20:58, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Non diffusing category

Non-Diffusing does not apply between this category and the one on independent distributions. It’s very disturbing the amount of WP:OWN that is going on in the Linux pages on Wikipedia. One or two users seem to be under the impression their opinions give more weight to the discussion (see the discussion on Unix-like for more examples. GimliDotNet (talk) 07:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

@GimliDotNet: What? How does it not apply? All Linux distribution (which includes NixOS, the one you're removing this category) should be in this category, as informed in the info, regardless if they are in categories under this one, because this is a non-diffusing category... cc @Ahunt:.--CreateAccou4343nt555 (talk) 13:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

If you read the closed discussion above you will see that what we suffer from here is too few contributors and too much past mess to clean up. Help is welcome. - Ahunt (talk) 13:59, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ahunt: What does the infobox in this category means then? "For convenience, all Linux distributions should be included in this category. This includes all Linux distributions that can also be found in the subcategories." Edit, it seems you meant to reply GimliDotNet (talk · contribs) and not me? CreateAccou4343nt555 (talk) 15:15, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Non diffusing categories should be rare and where two categories sound similar but are not really the same. You cannot use “convenience” as a reason to make it non diffusing, that’s an invalid application of WP:CAT. Independent Linux distributions is a direct child of Linux distributions and is good enough. GimliDotNet (talk) 15:08, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

@GimliDotNet: There was already consensus that this category should be a non-diffusing category. When you remove more than once the category from NixOS, you're bypassing the existing consensus.CreateAccou4343nt555 (talk) 15:24, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

How on earth did this CFD close as delete? Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 May 22#Category:Independent Linux distributions GimliDotNet (talk) 15:17, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Based on weight of argument. It could be deleted again for the same reason as there is no definition of what is an "independent" Linux distro. Independent of what? Until I removed it Red Hat Enterprise Linux was in that cat! - Ahunt (talk) 15:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

There has to be a valid reason to avoid the general WP:CAT guidelines on subcategories. At present none has been provided. Also consensus of a couple of people isn’t really that weighty and should not override general Wikipedia guidelines. GimliDotNet (talk) 15:50, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

If you have suggestions they would be welcome. - Ahunt (talk) 16:24, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Looking into it further, what a mess, Operating systems based on the Linux kernel contains Linux distributions despite describing itself as

Pages listed directly under this category describe operating systems that are based on the Linux kernel, but are not universally recognized as Linux distributions.

it makes no sense at all. GimliDotNet (talk) 18:01, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Template:Linux distributions is a really good breakdown. There’s no reason we can’t follow the same pattern in categorisation GimliDotNet (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

That was very similar to the mess of sub-categories that was being solved here. You should probably read the rest of the story here and also here for how we got to today. - Ahunt (talk) 23:03, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

The problem is no one contributed to the debate. Articles should be in logical categories based on defining characteristics and in a way that makes them navigable. There is no reason to not subcategorise. The template breaking down by parent distribution is fine, there’s no reason we cannot follow that pattern, and we have List of Linux Distributions for people who wish to see a large list containing all distributions. GimliDotNet (talk) 05:23, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

That is true, over the months I worked on this and widely consulted, I didn't get much useful input or participation. The only helpful input was from readers who consistently complained that the existing categories and subcats, as per the tree, was un-navigable and useless for finding distributions. For instance if you are looking for Lubuntu and you don't know that it is based on Ubuntu, which is based on Debian, you will never find it in the catacombs of subcats, you are lost before you start. The one consensus was that there should be one single category to find all distros that we have an article on. I would suggest if you want to re-org the subcats then go head, but leave all the distros in the main cat as well, otherwise you will just recreate the problem. - Ahunt (talk) 13:45, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. We have List of Linux Distributions to cater for users who don’t know what category a distribution is in. Users who know how categories work will know how to navigate up the tree, we should not need to ignore WP:CAT for users who don’t know how categorisation works - non diffusion is not about giving users one massive list, it’s for rare cases where categories are similar but not children. GimliDotNet (talk) 17:03, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Okay, well there is a proposal to overrule the past consensus (such as it was), so let's see if anyone agrees with that concept. - Ahunt (talk) 17:08, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I give up. I’ll go work on a project that doesn’t go against community guidance based on the concensus of two users. Good luck to you all GimliDotNet (talk) 17:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)