Talk:Acid jazz

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Groove Collective[edit]

Were they/are they really that prominent in the Acid Jazz scene? I can remember one 12" that was relatively succesful, but it wasn't particularly distinctive. I was following Acid Jazz from '91 to '97, from which period it tended to fade off towards Mo'wax etc. At the moment I doubt that this prominent a highlight of GrooveCollective is justified, unless placed in its proper context.

Secondly, Acid Jazz as far as I'm aware in the UK, was never referred to as 'Groove Jazz'. Was the phrase commonly adopted in the US/elsewhere?

No it was not, and Groove Collective featured on one of the few American complilations to sell at the end of the 1980's making it ripe for some total wanker to cite without knowing anything. Also Acid Jazz does NOT "Tend to use Samples". It "tends" to be played live by real musicians. there is a lot of use of motifs from older compositions, but then that's kind of like real jazz, people riffing on the classics, dig? I guess it's too much to ask that anyone posting here know their arse from a hole in the ground!

IMO Groove Collective is notable because they are the only major acid jazz act from US (most major acts are from UK). Prpobably you are not familiar with them because you stoped following the genre in 1997, unlike other people who still dig this kind of music. Also, dening that acid jazz "tends to use samples" is silly. "Cantaloop" by US3 is the cornerstone acid jazz record and it DOES feature sample from Marcus Miller's "Cantaloop Island". Netrat_msk (talk) 09:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

@Netrat_msk Pertaining to your accolades and homage to the Acid Jazz band, Groove Collective, I concur almost precisely with your given sentiments regarding this terrific and avant-garde ensemble, comprised of, at any given time, six (6) Juilliard trained and skilled musicians.

For those unaware of their music, Groove Collective made their debut in 1992, and released their self-entitled album LP in 1993. The Groove Collective LP is perhaps one of the Grooviest, Superbly Produced and Perfectly Arranged albums I have ever had the pleasure of listening to, not to mention a key piece in my Music Catalog. The album, as well as the Band, is without doubt, one of the pioneers of the Acid Jazz music, along with US3, and the long-running Brazilian Band, going on I believe 40 years, by the name of Azymuth.

I did fancy several of their other albums, such as Declassified and Live in Brooklyn. As I mentioned earlier, the self-entitled LP, Groove Collective, is perhaps their best album ever released, although their music is much better heard Live, as opposed to recordings. However, they have released several Live albums, so one can really get a sense for what to expect if you were to hear them live. Of course they use Mixing and Overdubs while playing Live, however watching the drummer, masterful Genji Siraisi, play a 10 minute solo using Reverb, is perhaps one of the most incredible music one will ever see. The only comparison I would make, within the same genre of music played Live is STS9, which stands for Sound Tribe Sector 9.

I once heard them play in Solana Beach, California, at one of the greatest music venues San Diego has to offer, at The Belly Up Tavern. To offer some perspective to not only the popularity of Groove Collective at the time, but also as a tribute to the talent Groove Collective is famous for, I purchased tickets for this Wednesday night venue, six months in advance, thinking the event would be sold out, I couldn't have been more wrong. As the band hails from NYC, apparently they were well ahead of their time, since only about 15 people showed up to this event, which normally sees a standing room only crowd for even nominal acts.

I was not only shocked at the turnout, but I also felt for the psyche of the band members, which as I recall, was a 10-piece ensemble. However, I can say that with all of the roughly 1000 plus music venues I have attended in my life, this show was by far one of the Greatest and Most Intimate of Concerts I have ever attended. Not only did the lack of attendance leave the band unaffected, they played one of the best sets I have ever heard, lasting over 4 hours, until nearly 2 a.m. I tell this story to give perspective on the band, their talent, as well as fortitude to please their loyal fan base.

There is no doubt I would consider this music to be categorized in the Acid Jazz sub-genre, however I don't think one could compare this Fusion inspired music to bands such as Jazzanova, Jazztronik or US3. As great as those bands are, especially with their contributions to Acid Jazz, I believe the distinction lies in the ability to improvise while on stage. The aforementioned bands are strictly remixers of music, and the result is still incredible and avant-garde in their own right.

As far as I know, their last production was in 2006 on Kufala Records. If you want a good assessment of their talent, check out a tune named Fragile Planet. It has a brilliant vibe about it, and demonstrates the heart and soul of the Groove Collective's abilities and detail that sets them apart from other bands that fall into the Acid Jazz sub-genre of music.

Mark Halsey 02:57, 8 July 2017 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markhalsey (talkcontribs)  

Acid Jazz is Actually Jazz[edit]

Coming from the Jazz community, my understanding of Acid Jazz was the jazz and jazz fusion sounds stemming from actual hypnotic or groove based Jazz. For a great example of this perspective, check out the album "Talkin' Verve : The Roots of Acid Jazz." A lot of people in the jazz circle understand Acid Jazz by this definition, and yet there is no mention of the artists on the aforementioned album eg: Wes Montgomery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.213.7.162 (talk) 19:41, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

THERE IS NOT AND NEVER WAS ANY UK MUSICAL GENRE CALLED ACID JAZZ[edit]

EDITED* In all my comments and answers below I go into a whole lot of detail. I did this purposely because I know most people come to wikipedia to find facts. Until either I or some other real Jazzfunkateer edits the acid jazz page take everything you read on it with a grain of salt. See all my comments below. [620 Funkster now known as Real Soulboy]Real Soulboy (talk) 16:05, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

This article is false, misleading and inaccurate. It describes acid jazz as a musical genre from mid 80's England. As an old London Jazzfunkateer (Soulhead) who spent most of the late 70's and the whole of the 1980's in London Soul clubs I can tell you for a fact that there never was any such genre called acid Jazz here in London or the UK in the 1980's. What you refer to as 1990's “acid jazz” is nothing more than a rehash of Jazz, Funk and Soul from the 1960's 1970's and 1980's. Most of it is ripped or copied much of it is straight plagiarised. We did not invent a musical genre in England in the mid 1980's called acid jazz. Acid Jazz is a record label that no one had even heard of in the mid 1980's because at the time it didn't exist! It was created in 1987 and all it did was “ride the wave” of the demand for old school Funk. This demand came about as a direct result of the earlier Rare Groove Movement which was started by Soulheads like me earlier in the mid 1980's. (1984/85) to be exact. Acid Jazz is a record label and nothing else.

You claim: Acid Jazz originated in the London club scene of the mid-1980s. That is false and incorrect.

I was part of the London club scene in the mid 80's when we even had our own UK version of Soul Train and there was no such phrase as “acid jazz” in use anywhere in the British Jazz Funk movement of the time. If you live in London then ask any old Soul boy or Soul girl most of whom are now in their 50's what acid jazz is and all you will receive is a blank look. Speak to old skool London Soul dj's like Norman Jay, Chris Hill, Trevor Nelson or Pete Tong and ask them to name a single acid jazz track that is not jazz funk and soul. It's only new millenials who have no knowledge of the Funk who refer to Jazz Funk as acid jazz. If you had used the phrase acid jazz back in the mid 80's then nobody would have known what the heck you were talking about. Most still don't. I never even heard it mentioned until at least the mid 1990's when someone played me a Jamiroquai record called When you gonna learn and claimed it was acid Jazz. After I had picked myself up off the floor I played him We getting down by Weldon Irvine and Los Conquistadores Chocolates by Johnny Hammond Smith from the 1970's. I listened to a few more tracks and explained to him that I recognised everything on the album from 1970's and 1980's Funk. He didn't call it acid jazz any more and neither should anyone else. Jamiroquai is NOT acid jazz. Jamiroquai just a replay of 70's and 80's Funk. Their entire discography is composed of retreads or the merging together of pre-existing songs from 1970's and 1980's Funk.“Their” Grooves,hooks,Basslines,Synth Lines and Rifts are copied mostly from Earth Wind and Fire, Roy Ayres, Pleasure, Kool and the Gang, Herbie Hancock, Stevie Wonder, Johnny Hammond, Deodato, Idris Muhammed, Patrice Rushen, Lonnie Liston Smith, Larry Graham, Prince, The SOS band, Marvin Gaye, Bob James, The Barkays, Curtis Mayfield, Brass Construction, Sahara, Fatback, Tom Browne, Confunkshun, Rick James, George Duke, Parliament Funkadelic and so on. Name me one Jamiroquai track on any of their first 5 albums that is not ripped, copied or plagiarised from that era. Name me one Jamiroquai track on any of those albums that is acid jazz and not jazz funk and soul?

What is this acid jazz thing of the mid 80's? I don't remember it. I was there and there was no such thing.

In the mid 1980's our major British funk bands and acts were Delegation, Imagination, Central Line, High Tension, David Grant, Light of the World, Junior Giscombe, Incognito, Mirage, Five Star, The Cool Notes, 52nd Street, Phil Fearon and Galaxy, Second Image, Total Contrast, David Grant, David Joseph, Jaki Graham, Level 42, Sahara, SADE, Billy Ocean, Loose Ends, Princess, Soul to Soul, Brand New Heavies and the Pasedena's to name a few. These are British Jazz Funk and Soul bands NOT acid jazz bands. What is this mid 80's acid jazz phenomena you speak of? Which one of these bands is acid jazz and not jazz funk?

You claim: Incognito is acid jazz. How so?

Incognito is one of our early 80's Brit Funk bands who played and still play Jazz funk and Soul. It's original members came from Light of the World one of the most famous of the then underground British Soul bands. Incognito was based on the moody 70's Jazzfunk sound of acts like Roy Ayres, Herbie Hancock, Hughbert and Ronnie Laws The Mizzel Brothers sound and so on. Even back then none of us would dare claim that we invented anything. Brit Funk was our tribute to the prevailing American sound of the era. Since when did we create a genre called acid Jazz? When did all of this Black American Jazz Funk and Soul of the 60's 70's and 80's suddenly become English acid jazz? I'm English but these so called 90's acid jazz bands are just regurgitating the sounds British JazzFunkateers remember coming over from America in the 60' and 70's when we were kids. These American Soul bands were all popular in the original UK underground jazzfunk movement .Many of them appeared on TOTP or on the Brtish Soul Train. This so called acid jazz is the stuff that we used to order or buy in import record shops like Bluebirds or in the Soul village of London’s West end. We didn't invent Black American Jazz Funk over here! what on earth are you talking about my friend?

The mid 80's was the Synth Funk era when our UK Funk bands like 5 Star and Loose Ends were on Soul Train over in the US. Around 1986/87 the sound of Funk changed. The Americans went the route of New jack Swing and Rap which later morphed into neo Soul. In the UK we went back to 1970's Jazz Funk starting with Tribute by the Passedenas which was based on The Rance Allen sound. At the end of the 80's London band Soul to Soul became one of the biggest Funk bands on the Planet with their hit Back to Life. That track was based in part on 1970's Donald Byrd, Dennis Edwards,and Barry White. Omar based much of his sound on Stevie Wonder and Lonnie Liston Smith. It was people like this that set the template for the “British” Soul sound of the 90's and the trend of reviving old school Black American Jazz Funk of the 60's 70's and 80's. All these acts signed to acid jazz continued in the same vein.

What you call acid jazz is nothing more than a replay of Black American Jazz Funk and Soul incorporating Original Funk from the 1960's James Brown era, The Blue Note Jazz Sound,Jazz Funk fusion from the early to mid 1970's Jazzfunkateers some named above Like Lonnie Liston Smith, Herbie Hancock/ Head Hunters, Donald Byrd, and The Mizzel Brothers Sound, The World sound of the 1970's (Jazz,funk,calypso, African Latin,and Soul) as epitomised by Mandrill, Fela Kuti, Manu Dibango, Cymande and Osibisa, The disco era sound of the mid to late 1970's ie the Barry White The Philly sound, and producers like Gamble and Huff, Quincy Jones, Randy Muller, Rod Temperton, Leon Sylvers and so on. Can you name me one song which belongs to this mysterious English acid jazz genre and is not Jazz Funk?

You claim: Many acts that might have been defined as acid jazz are now seen as jazz-funk, neo soul or jazz rap. That is also a false and misleading statement

Which acts are these? Name one act that was once defined as acid jazz which is now jazz-funk, neo soul or jazz rap? There are no acts that can be defined as acid jazz. That's because there is no such thing as acid jazz This sound was ALWAYS seen as Jazz Funk. Black American 1990's Neo Soul came from 1980's Black American New Jack Swing and NOT from 1990's acid jazz records in England. Black American Jazz Rap came from 1980's United States and NOT from acid jazz records in 1990's England. Nothing was ever defined as acid jazz because there was never any such thing as acid jazz. Period.

Mis-Labelling Jazz Funk and Soul mixes as Acid Jazz does not make acid jazz a musical genre. It is a rehash of 60's,70's and 80's Funk.In the United Kingdom we have played tribute to the Black American Sound going back to the days when The Beatles, The Who, Led Zeplin and others took on the pre existing sound's of Chuck Berry, Little Richard and so on. We didn't invent Black American Blues of the 50's and neither did we invent Black American Jazz Funk and Soul of the 60's, 70's and 80's. To claim that we did is to dis-enfranchise The African Americans from their own sound and claim ownership of what we do not own. That cannot stand on what is supposed to be an online encyclopedia. With all due respect you don't know what you are talking about Mate. I take it this article was written in good faith so are you prepared to re-edit this mis-leading article or do you want me to do it.

620 Funkster

A former Jazzfunkateer from London and a member of the original British Jazzfunk movement of the late 1970's and 1980's,

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Acid_jazz&action=edit&section=new#Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).

Hi, 620 Funkster, thanks for your input and interest in this topic. I understand your assertion that acid jazz isn't a real genre, but credible sources such as AllMusic: http://www.allmusic.com/subgenre/acid-jazz-ma0000002414, The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/nov/01/acid-jazz-25, and editorial journalist Chris Hunt: http://www.chrishunt.biz/features27.html state that it is. Even if you were active in the scene and believe otherwise, your opinion based on your anecdotal experiences cannot be given more weight than these aforementioned reliable sources. Keep in mind that several music genres such as proto-punk were not known by their current names during their early years. As for the three claims you wish see evidence for, here's a source for the first claim: https://books.google.com/books?id=zCXC_QO7cA4C&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=%22acid+jazz%22+%22london%22+club+1980s&source=bl&ots=SNIuRSukZ-&sig=HHsJCqxJbQ7qSTdmlMftrvdJ1Wo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii-Pyu87rQAhVpxoMKHR-dCMwQ6AEISjAI#v=onepage&q=%22acid%20jazz%22%20%22london%22%20club%201980s&f=false, and the second claim: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/incognito-mn0000772721. The book Encyclopedia of African American Music, Volume 3 is cited as the source for the third claim, but I am unable to verify it. I hope this helps. Life of Tau (talk) 23:04, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

There was NO musical genre called acid jazz created here in the UK in the mid 80's. PERIOD.[edit]

Assertions? I Think you misunderstand me. I am making no assertions on this matter. I am telling there is no musical genre as acid jazz. I am a former London Soul-Boy now in my 50's and with all due respect I don't need to ask anybody sitting in the United States when it comes’s to the Funk or the Underground London Jazz Funk movement in my own city. I am not here asking questions, I'm here to set the record straight one way of another.

Let me first tell you that none of the writers of those articles have more credibility than I do. Now some of those articles describe the acid jazz MOVEMENT. That is not a musical genre. It was a tribe of people following a specific sound and that sound was Jazz-Funk and Soul Those that describe bands like Jamiroquai and Incognito as acid jazz are In no way credible and the person/s who wrote them know nothing about music in the UK for reasons I will go on to explain.

The acid Jazz "movement" of the early 90's was the successor to the original Soulhead movement of the late 70's and early 80's of which I was a member. It is not and never ever was musical genre. Period. No outsider is going to tell me about a London Jazzfunk movement we helped to create before many of these article's writers were even born. I don't care how many clueless,false and misleading articles written by musically ignorant youngsters there are.

I grew up in the 1960's London at the time of James Brown and Motown, I remember the old London, Birmingham and Nottingham house parties, I experienced the Jazz Funk era of the early 70's first hand with the Funk of Herbie Hancock, Roy Ayres Johnny Hammond Smith, Lonnie Liston Smith, The Mizzel Brothers, George Benson, Patrice Rushen, Miles Davis, Mandrill etc etc ie all the sounds that people who know nothing about the Funk think is called acid jazz. These bands used to do shows in West End Soul Clubs like Ronnie Scotts and Gullivers.When Disco Sucks was ongoing in the States it was us in the UK, Holland and West Germany as it was then that helped keep the Funk afloat. Everyone From Rose Royce and EWF to the Gap Band and Parliament played in London in the 70's I was there at the very start of the UK Jazzfunk movement when Chris Hill and Froggy were doing their thing at Caister and the Gold Mine. You have any idea what they are?, When Greg Edwards was doing Soul Spectrum and the best Disco In town at the Strand, When Robbie Vincent's Soul Show was the must hear for ever London Jazzfunkateer, When during the week the only place we could listen to the Funk was on London Pirate Radio stations like Solar Radio, LWR, Invicta, When the only place we could read about our heroes was in Blues and Soul magazine because the Funk was never covered in mainstream magazines or on national radio.Do you know anything about what i mentioned above? Do you remember the days of Pirate radio? Do you come from London? I was there were you? Don’t try and dismiss what I have to say on the basis of some ridiculous and poorly sourced articles on the web written by young individuals who clearly don't haven’t a clue. None of those articles have more weight than I do when it comes to this subject.


In London I experienced the disco era of the late 70's first hand, I experienced the Electrofunk/ Synth Funk era of the 80's first hand, I experienced New Jack swing of the late 1980's first hand. I experienced the start of gangsta rap and Neo Soul first hand, I experienced the birth of drum and bass first hand right here on where it was created on the streets where i grew up, And when in the early 1990's the sounds of 1970's Jazzfunk began to return by which time I was in my 30's I was there. You will not find a single oldschool Jazzfunkateer from London or England who will tell you any different. You will not find anyone from my generation who acknowledges this non existent musical genre called acid jazz. Neither in the UK or the USA where all this plagiarised jazzfunk music Comes from. YOu mention and African American publication you can't verify. Let ma assure you no African American will tell you that Jazz funk and Soul is called acid jazz and was invented in 1990's England unless he's a kid too young to remember the Jazzfunk and Disco era's. Do you think the African Americans don't know who Roy Ayres is? check out youtube. You're telling me that Black American Jazz, Funk and Soul from the 1960's 1970's and 1980's was invented here in England in the 1990's even though a person who has spent all his adult life in London is telling you we did not? No article that describes acid Jazz as a musical genre is credible.

I Know the Wag Club of 1987 as mentioned by Giles Peterson, except I knew it long before then I was around long before Giles Peterson! I remember when a certain kid called Timothy Westwood was doing rap competitions at the Wag Club. London’s' West End was the Soulboys Mecca in 1979/80. I knew Gulliver’s, I knew Gossips, Reflections, I knew Ronnie Scott’s, and all the little Soul clubs that would open for a few months and then close down. I knew all the Funk Clubs in London from the late 70's and all through the 80's.From Scene on the Green in South London to All Nations and the Oasis in North London. I was a Soulhead and nobody is going to tell me about the London Jazzfunk underground of the 1980's. It was a tiny tribe, we all listened to Radio London, we all bought Blues and Soul and we all wore the white socks. We are the originators of the The UK jazzfunk movement, we are the ones that pushed Funk into the mainstream in the mid 80's and we are the ones that began the Funk revival Rare Groove in the mid 80's, We arwe the ones that protested for years until we finally got TV programmes like Solid Soul and 620 Soul Train. Acid jazz records just jumped on the bandwagon in the late 80's and rode the wave created by us. They are not the authority in anything to do with Jazz Funk in London. There were lots of independent record labels in London that came way before they did. Soulboys were around long before acid jazz records. All they did was regurgitate old Jazz Funk. They did not invent a genre called acid jazz.


OK so now iv'e got that off my chest lets debunk these silly article's:


http://www.allmusic.com/subgenre/acid-jazz-ma0000002414

Ridiculous. That Is Not a credible source. The bands it lists are jazz-funk and soul bands mostly from the 90's Incognito excepted. Just because someone list bands who's music he doesn’t understand because he has no knowledge Black music (probably because of silly articles like this) Does not make jazz funk and soul acid jazz! How is this list credible? Says who?

Incognito? Since when was incognito acid jazz and not jazz funk?

I have Known Incognito since 1980/81 when they split from Light of the World. I bought their single North London boy I still have it right here. I still have the stuff they did under the Warriors like destination. I remember when bassist Tubbsy and co formed a band called the Team in the 80's with former members of Light of the World. I think there might have been a couple of members from Central Line. We watched them on British Soul Train when they performed Wiki Wakki house party. It's on you tube along with all of the other British Soul acts from my era like Loose Ends, Five Star, Total Contrast, Jaki Graham, David Grant and loads more. This was Brit Funk not acid jazz. Incognito is and always was a jazzfunk band basing their sound on Herbie Hancock, George Duke Roy Ayres and the like.

  • Name one Incognito track that is acid jazz and not Jazz Funk.

Jamiroquai

It states Jamiroquai is acid jazz. Oh deary me. More evidence that this person doesn't know what he's talking about

As anyone who was around in the 1970's and 1980's will tell you Jamiroquai is just a replay of 1970's and 1980's Jazz Funk and Soul. They were in effect a funk Tribute Band. Nothing on their albums is acid jazz! All they did was replay old skool 70's Funk sounds that were popular again in London in the late 80's and early 1990's like Delegation, Pleasure and Roy Ayres. They are no more than a cover band.

The First Album rips 70's Funk songs from Marvin Gaye, Herbie Hancock, Weldon Irvine, Earth Wind and Fire, Chaka and Rufus ,Bob James, Roy Ayres, Curtis Mayfield, Kool and the Gang, Franki Beverly and Maze Lonnie Liston Smith, Ronnie Laws and his Brother Hubert Laws, Patrice Rushen, Pleasure, Cameo and Parliament Funkadelic, Larry Graham and others. The second album rips 70's Funk from Roy Ayres, Parliament Funkadelic, The Arista sound ie Tom Browne and Bernard Wright, The Fatback Band, Herbie Hancock, Barry White, Larry Graham, Pleasure and so on. Subsequent albums rip, Deodato, MFSB, Phil Fearon and Galaxy, Geraldine Hunt, Imagination, George Duke,The Barkays, Rick James, more Earth Wind and Fire, Stevie Wonder, Roy Ayres and Kool and the Gang. The Whispers, Zapp, Confunkshun, New York Skyy, Djvan Luz, Brass Construction, James Brown , Mandrill, The Meters, BT Express, Rick James, The Stone City Band, High Fashion, Prince, The SOS Band, Donald Byrd, Change, Leroy Hutson. The Jackson 5, The Isley Brothers, the list goes on. Everything on at least the first 5 Jamiroquai albums is copied or plagiarised 60's 70's and 80's Funk.

So tell me how is Jamiroquai acid Jazz? When did the Music of Stevie Wonder, George Clinton’s Cosmic Funk, Roy Ayres, Herbie Hancock, Donald Byrd, Kool and the Gang, Patrice Rushen and the rest stop being Black American Jazz Funk and Soul of the 1970's and turn into a 1990's English genre called acid jazz? So now the Funk on Earth Wind and Fire or Kool and the Gang albums of the 70's and 80's now belongs to Jamiroquai and is called acid Jazz!?

  • Name one Jamiroquai track that is acid jazz on any of the first 5 albums and not regurgitated Jazz funk and Soul.

Brand New Heavies

Brand New Heavies are the mid 80's contemporaries of Brit Funk Bands like 5STAR, Loose Ends, Sade, Total Contrast, Second Image, Level 42, David Joseph, Princess, LW5, David Grant, Phil Fearon and Galaxy, The Antilles, The Ebony Brothers, Alton Edwards, OMAR, Shakatak, and many more. All of whose sounds I know very well. Brand New Heavies are straight jazz funk and soul. A lot of Their sound comes from 70's Funk bands like creative source, 5th Dimension from the Motown sound, from the Mizzel Brothers sound, from Donald Byrd and so on. Galliano's stuff comes from people like The Mizzel Brothers, Leroy Hutson etc.. Other so-called acid jazz bands are playing regurgitated Blue Note Jazz Funk from the 60's, stuff you find on the average Johnny Hammond or any of the 1960's Jazzmen albums. Nothing those bands play is a musical genre created here in 1990's England. When did we invent Black American Jazz Blues and Soul in England? That sound goes back to the 1940's Dizzie Gillespie, Coltrane, Duke Ellington and the crowd, how is that 1990's English acid jazz? These writers have absolutely no knowledge of this music and it's origins.

Brand New Heavies were on American Soul Train not "Acid Train", as were Junior Giscombe, Loose Ends, 5 star, and Soul to Soul.

  • Compiling a list and calling it acid jazz does not make it true. Non of those bands are playing a genre called acid jazz. Name one track from any of those bands that is acid jazz and not jazz funk and soul. And you call this credible? on what grounds? Please explain.

Google Books

"acid jazz" "london" club 1980s

Google books does not claim acid jazz is a music genre it just list clubs. Clubs that I knew BEFORE 1986 where the writer begins his experience. He speaks about the late 80's. I am from the late 1970's. We created the London Soul Underground environment that he met in the late 80's so what makes him more credible than me lol? because it's on the internet?


https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/nov/01/acid-jazz-25

Where in that article does it claim the Acid jazz is a musical genre in it's own right? All it does is talk about the London Funk underground of the late 80's and some of the bands they signed. They are calling it the "acid jazz scene" but nobody called it the acid jazz scene at the time. Once again if anyone had used the term acid jazz nobody would have had a clue what you were talking about. I remember that time very well This was when Cameo were top of the UK Soul Charts, When Loose Ends and Billy Ocean and Sade and 5 Star were turning Brit Funk into a world wide phenomenon. What the heck was acid jazz? where? I was there I didn't see it? Soul to Soul were called Soul to Soul not Acid to Acid. The word acid came back in vogue later in the late 80's only because of a house track called we call it acid. Before then acid was a term for the drugs used by hippies in the 1960's so no that is not a credible source and does not describe acid jazz as a musical genre for the simple fact that there was no such thing!


http://www.chrishunt.biz/features27.html


LOL, At last someone who actually knows what they are talking about. So tell me where does it claim acid jazz is a musical genre?

“Acid jazz is just a phrase, a name – it means nothing,” he says. “It just gets more young people listening to it.”

“It’s a scam,” whispers James Taylor as he passes between Quartet and bar. “It’s a way of selling records, it’s a way of making money.”
I don't think I need to add anything else to those two quotes do you?

None of those articles or the people who wrote them are more credible than I am. I think I have demonstrated that in no uncertain terms. In effect they are talking nonsense. There is no such thing as acid jazz and there never was. Acid Jazz is a record label or the name given to the Uk jazzfunk movement of the early 90's. We did not call ourselves the acid jazz movement in the 80's we were Soulhead's Jazzfunkers, or the New Soul Nation as epitomised by old Soulboy Sir Lenny Henry's TV programme of the era detailing the old jazz funk movement. The kids of the 1990's called themselves the acid jazz movement. They were our kids and younger siblings, Not us the Soulheads from the 70's and 80's. Trevor Nelson, Pete Tong, Norman Jay, Greg Edwards and co were all Soulhead Djs. They are all famous now and still around as is Chris Hill so why don't you email them, show them my comments and see if they will disagree with a word I have said. In fact contact any Soul DJ you know who was around in the Disco era and ask him or her what acid jazz is. If they tell you "ah that’s just old school Funk" then they are authentic. If they tell you this is a brand new musical genre invented in the united Kingdom in the mid 80's then they not authentic. Send them here. I will be waiting.


In conclusion I am way more credible than any of those article writers, So can you please now tell me one Soul track that came out of London in the 1980's and the 1990's that belongs to this so called acid jazz genre? that is not Jazz-Funk-Soul/World Sound of the 60's 70's and 80's?

I have now twice told you that there is no such musical genre. What musical genre did we invent in London in the late 80's that noone from that era has ever heard of? I know all the Motown, Stevie Wonder,James Brown and jazz sounds from Miles Davis, and Co in the 50's/60's all the way up to when the James Brown sound returned in 1987 and new Jack Swing began. Omar, The Pasedenas, Soul To Soul and co began the return to early 70's Funk in the late 80's. Loose Ends also had a heavy influence. Soul to Soul brought back the Donald Byrd Sound. The donald Byrd Drumbeat from dominoes became the templae for New Jack swing but the original drumbeat came fron here in England fro Cymande's Brothers on the Side back in the early 1970's. Omar lye fook based his sound on Roy Ayres and Lonnie Liston Smith. The Pasedenas based their sound on Rance Allen. I know all the sounds we created in the UK in that era because I remember them all from the 70's we all do. Well those who actually know something about the Funk do.

So tell please me what is this acid jazz genre that I missed in my own city and my own country? then tell me why you think that those silly articles carry more weight than what I have written here? Name me a track which belongs to this genre known as acid jazz...... With all due respect my I don't think you are in any way qualified to tell me what is credible or not when it comes to The Funk.


  • This acid jazz article gives out completely false and misleading information and that cannot stand on what is supposed to be an online encyclopedia.Kids come to wikipedia to be educated not mislead by people who haven't a clue what they are talking about. If it is not edited then I will either take steps to edit it or get one of my contemporaries to do it. If it is deleted then I will create a new page with he same info I have given here.


— Preceding unsigned comment added by 620Funkster (talkcontribs) 17:35, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Whether you were around to witness the London jazz scene in the '80s or know more about it than these writers is irrelevant because Wikipedia disallows WP:Original research. Even the world's foremost authority on a subject may not edit the article about said subject without citing WP:Reliable sources that support the content he or she wishes to add. Wikipedia also requires all content to be WP:Verifiable; disagreeing with these sources because they are written by "young individuals who clearly don't haven’t a clue" is not enough to remove the info in the article that cites them—you must present your own WP:Reliable sources that support your claims. Also, you will have to establish WP:Consensus for your edits if they are contested. You cannot demand that others make edits for you, and it is bad form to threaten to circumvent reversions of your edits—again, see WP: Consensus. I wish you the best in your editing, but I implore you to be more diplomatic on this or any other talk page. Life of Tau (talk) 23:06, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Censorship or deleting my page will not help you. There is no genre called acid Jazz. Period.[edit]

What happened to my page and my new account? (This page does not exist) Why was it deleted and by who You? I have told you there is no such musical genre as acid jazz. You told me that there was and then linked me to what you describe as "credible sources" none of which claim acid jazz is a musical genre. One even offers two quotes which confirm what I have told you already "acid jazz is a scam" I then come back and are told my page no longer exists, so I have created a new one with a similar name. Who deleted my page? You?

You said: "Even the world's foremost authority on a subject may not edit the article about said subject without citing WP:Reliable source"

I am well aware of that which is why I didn't take steps to edit it but answer me this question. Which one of those sources claims that acid jazz is a musical genre?

It's a simple question which you have avoided several times. Did you read what I wrote? The sources you quote describe the London Soul Scene in the late 80's which I experienced. They do not describe a musical genre called acid jazz and that's because there wasn't and isn't any such genre. That is common knowledge amongst anyone in the Jazz Funk and Soul community. The other one of these so-called reliable sources is a list from a random website. A list of bands from a website is a credible source? So if I create a website, list a bunch of bands and call it the mash potato genre does that make me credible source and mash potatoes a musical genre?

You said:"disagreeing with these sources because they are written by "young individuals who clearly don't haven’t a clue" is not enough to remove the info in the article that cites them"!

Seriously mate are you having a laugh? What does this other source quoted by you say? :

“Acid jazz is just a phrase, a name – it means nothing,” he says. “It just gets more young people listening to it.”

“It’s a scam,” whispers James Taylor as he passes between Quartet and bar. “It’s a way of selling records, it’s a way of making money.”

So em.... in your estimation which one of these "credible articles" states that acid jazz is a musical genre? Do those two quotes agree with me or the writer of this article? I am sorry but I don't understand what you are talking about.

Does it not strike you as odd that nobody can name a single acid jazz band or track that is not infact Jazz funk and Soul? What does that tell you? I have to say as someone who claims to be a music guru on his page and has been given some form of weak authority by a well meaning website like wikipedia your behaviour strikes me as rather odd. I note you were recently involved in an edit war and were threatened with being blocked from editing anything again. Ironically it was on the page of another British band The Beatles. So were I to mention that The Beatles is the stuff of Chuck Berry and Little Richard would you try and censor what I said there as well my American friend?

You said : You must present your own WP: Reliable sources that support your claims. Also, you will have to establish WP:Consensus

Duh, If WP consensus whatever that is has determined that there is a musical genre called acid jazz based on sources none of which claim acid jazz is a musical genre, One of which even calls acid jazz a "scam" then wp consensus not fit for purpose and is most likely the reason why teachers in my experience tell their pupils to avoid wikipedia. So far the only claim you have that acid jazz is a musical genre comes from the person who wrote this article. A Person whom is by his own admission is a former employee of acid jazz records! That and the fact that acid Jazz records wrongly labels it's Jazz funk and Soul mixes as acid jazz mixes.

I said from the outset I assume that the author wrote this article in good faith and is not old enough as far as I am aware to remember the 1970's and 1980's. If he was an original London Funkster from the days of pirate radio then he would know all these old Jazz Funk bands of the era which were popular in the UK (Bands which I have listed above and all of which are verifiable with a few mouse clicks)

Blue Note Jazz and 1960's/1970's/1980's Funk exists. Acid Jazz does not. Roy Ayres,Herbie Hancock and the 1970's Jazzfunkateers exist. Acid jazz does not. We did not invent anything called acid Jazz in the mid 1980's At the time of Loose Ends, 5 Star, Billy Ocean Soul to Soul etc period.

I Will make others aware of this page ie real British and American Funksters and it will eventually be edited to stop this lie. There is no such genre as acid jazz. As someone who appears to be a volunteer on this site, I would now like to to find out why my original 3 day old account was deleted, by who and on what grounds? Am i missing something or am I given to understand that there is censorship of opinion on this online encyclopedia?Funkster620 (talk) 13:51, 26 November 2016 (UTC) Authentic London Funkster

Hi, 620 Funkster, sorry to hear about your account—I had nothing to do with it, though, and I do not know why it happened. The first two webpages from my initial post:
http://www.allmusic.com/subgenre/acid-jazz-ma0000002414
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/nov/01/acid-jazz-25
both explicitly name and define acid jazz, and by doing so support acid jazz's existence as a genre; they need not literally contain the phrase "acid jazz is a genre."
The third article: http://www.chrishunt.biz/features27.html, which contains an interview of jazz musician Alan Barnes, was admittedly a mistake to include on my part. Although it initially seemed to be a piece that took into account an opposing viewpoint that acid jazz "means nothing" while ultimately concluding otherwise, a more thorough reading finds that it instead concludes that acid jazz is simply a term applied to a certain style of jazz. If you find this article supports your argument, you are welcome to use it. In its place, I offer this webpage from the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/multimedia/musicdirectory/acidjazzindex.shtml (This includes an audio file and transcript). AllMusic, The Guardian, and the BBC are all considered reliable sources and can be found cited on a multitude of Wikipedia articles, and in AllMusic's case, a multitude of music articles. Whether you personally trust these sources or believe what they say is simply beside the point, but if you still doubting whether they are acceptable for use on this site, you may inquire about them at Wikipedia's reliable sources noticeboard. There should be no further debate to be had about whether these sources support acid jazz as a genre or are considered credible; the burden is now on you, Funkmaster, to assemble the sources needed to support whatever changes you wish to make. Feel free to use the noticeboard from above if you are unsure about which sources are considered reliable; I have found that the users there are quite friendly and helpful. Please understand that I am not a steadfast supporter of acid jazz being a genre; my interest is in preventing sourced information from being superseded by unbacked claims. If you can sufficiently cite the changes you make, then you will receive no complaint from me. I also wish to make clear that I do not claim nor have ever claimed to be an authority on music or any other subject—I am simply a novice Wikipedian trying to do the right thing. Best of luck with your editing. Life of Tau (talk) 08:52, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Listen my friend. Please do not insult my intelligence any further.

Now, miraculously as soon as it was discovered that I had made a noise and wasn't going anywhere the same night I was sent a re-activation for my account which means that my account was indeed de-activated. I haven’t had enough time to look around as yet but I know everything on wikipedia is logged. Your telling me that you don't know what happened and you can shed no light as to who attempted to censor me? Perhaps thinking I would just go away. You don't know how to find out who deactivated my account is that what you are saying? Someone must have deleted the acc. Someone must have sent the reactivation email. So who was it or am I missing something?

There are two reason’s this page hasn't already been edited and neither of them have anything to do with you. The first is that I’m a very busy man and haven't even got round to alerting others. The second is that despite my frustration with this totally inaccurate page I was waiting for the author to appear and explain exactly what he thinks acid Jazz is. I would then work with him to clean up the page in what I assume is or at least should be the spirit of Wikipedia. Editing takes time and I didn't want to edit his work without giving him a chance to defend himself. I could edit this page without right now as it stands, delete all the inaccurate information, replace it with my previous comments here and I wouldn't loose any consensus against anyone if it were to end in an editing war as I believe wikipedians call it. The reason being that people who actually know something about music as rather than those who don't or are here with an agenda will be involved in the process. And no one who knows Jazz-Funk and Soul thinks that acid jazz is a musical genre. I guarantee it.


I'm trying to work out if you think your clever or if you think others are stupid. Without even looking at it no BBC webpage will ever ever tell you that acid jazz is a musical genre! Not a chance. I know the BBC well. The most famous London soul shows of 1970's/1980's were on BBC Radio London. Greg Edwards Soul Spectrum/The best Disco in town at the Lyceum in the Strand, The Robbie Vincent Soul Show, Tony Blackburn Soul Show, Andy Peebles, Big Steve Walsh The list goes on. BBC Radio London was essentially a JazzFunk radio in the 80's and no one the BBC will say that we invented a genre called acid Jazz. Those Soul DJ'S and the present ones of 1Xtra (BBC) are all contemporaries of mine. They are fellow London Soulboys. We went to the same schools,the same Clubs. I’ve seen them play. Trevor Nelson MBE, Norman Jay MBE, Pete Tong MBE now a world Famous DJ's were London Soulhead's.An MBE means they have been decorated by the Queen so that’s how much of an impact they have had on the UK Jazzfunk scene the writer never experienced. Comedian Sir Lenny Henry and Craig Charles who stared in Red Dwarf are also Soulheads and none of them will tell you that we invented a genre called acid Jazz here in the UK. I guarantee it. You should not be on wikipedia and you most certainly should not be trying to Lord it on a British Soul page from the mid West of America. You mentioned diplomacy earlier and I admit I’m having great difficulty in staying diplomatic with a person like you.


Lets progress

You Said: "Whether you personally trust these sources or believe what they say is simply beside the point"

No it damn well isn't. You are not in control of a London Jazzfunkateer on an article concerning British Soul so step off your high horse my American friend. How is a random website with a list of bands a credible source? I asked you that before and you ignored it just like you have tried to ignore much of what I have said so far. Just because something is on the internet doesn't make it a credible source. Even a school child knows that. Are you telling me the creators of Wikipedia don't? If something is false then it is false.


Those lists are Jazz Funk bands like Incognito and Jamiroquai. Not acid jazz bands. I've already told you that and even gave you some of their history. In the case of Jamiroquai I even told the source of most of their sounds but you strangely ignored it. Now why would that be? If you were really interested in accuracy and making Wikipedia more credible then why didn't you check out all the information I have given you instead of trying to foist on me the same articles I have already debunked. Articles which I repeat do not claim that acid jazz is a musical genre. You don't really have any interest in accuracy do you? I have only been on Wikipedia for 5 minuets and I'm already starting to see why it gets such a bad rap from scholars. What is your motive on this page?


You Said: The third article: http://www.chrishunt.biz/features27.html, which contains an interview of jazz musician Alan Barnes, was admittedly a mistake to include on my part.

No no no no! on the contrary. That it is the only thing you have said or directed me to so far that is accurate.

Lets recap what was said; "Acid Jazz is a scam a way to make money". Now that's from two people who actually made music in the era! They are using the precise words that I would use when describing the term as I was there as well.But you chose to IGNORE those quotes and then directed me yet again to the same articles NONE of which claim acid Jazz is a musical genre.You know that as well as I do. Are you infact the original author? Nothing here on this page contains any credible sources. There is nothing in that article that cannot be dismissed as either half truth, false or inaccurate. Any source which claims acid jazz is a musical genre is false regardless of what you or anyone else says, imagines or writes on a website. Any website anywhere.


  • Acid jazz, also known as club jazz, is a musical genre that combines elements of jazz, soul, funk and disco.

See my reply above:

That is a false statement. Acid Jazz is a record label based in London England. Club Jazz is what our Fathers used to listen to in the 1950's along with James Brown. Where is your credible source for that? You don't have one. There isn't one. I know there isn't.


  • Acid jazz originated in the London club scene of the mid-1980s in the rare groove.

See my reply above:

That is a false statement. Where is the evidence for that? I was there there was no such thing. No musical genre called acid Jazz originated in the London Club scene inn the mid 1980's. They were Jazz Funk and Soul bands are not acid jazz. No one ever used that phrase in the 80's. no one called mid 80's London Funk Bands like Loose Ends or 5 star, The Cool Notes, 52nd Street, Sahara, Total Contrast, LW5,Princess, Omar, David Grant, The Antilles or any other British Soul Band an acid Jazz band! The phrase was unheard of. What was the name of the band that started this non existent genre in the mid 80's that no one who was partying in the mid 80's London Jazz Funk Community has ever heard of? What was their first hit? What was their Album called? who are they? where are they? You didn't think to question that? You just took the word of someone who admits he worked for acid Jazz records. And yet you jump in here and try to question an Old Soulboy like me? As far as I’m concerned, your actions on this page are very very suspicious.


  • Various origins have been attributed to the name of the genre, including claims to have coined the term by DJs Gilles Peterson[2] and Chris Bangs. The name is a play on the acid house genre, which was flourishing in the UK club scene in the 1980s.[3]

Lol What genre? Giles Peterson is a DJ. Show me a quote where Mr Peterson claims to have invented a sound that was in existence before he was born. When and where has Giles ever said "I invented 1950's and 1960's Black American Blue note Jazz" Where does he say "I invented the sound of Dizzie Gillespie, Charlie Parker and Roy Ayres? Where does he say that he's responsible for Disco,Gamble and Huff, Randy Muller, Quincy Jones, Leon Sylvers III, Earth Wind and Fire, Kool and the Gang, CHIC, Patrice Rushen, Herbie Hancock, Donald Byrd, Leroy Hutson, George Duke and so on? Because those are the sounds which we are being informed are called acid jazz. Since when? When did Giles ever claim that he invented Electro-Funk and New Jack swing? He has never ever claimed that. Acid jazz was simply a 90's movement. A movement is not a musical genre. They were a UK tribe of the 90's who were into Jazzfunk just like the Rare Groovers of the 80's and the Soulheads of the 70's before them. And that’s it.

The only person we know who ever tried to claim ownership of 1970's Jazz Funk and Soul in the 1990's was the lead singer of Jamiroquai who was reported to have said "we didn't take anything from anywhere". A rather bizarre statement considering that Jazz-funkers who remember the 70's and 80's can trace most all of their discography back to old Funk songs that we recall. We regard them as being re-plays or retreads from some of the bands I have already spoken about.

As an aside when people posted lists of their influences on You tube recently their comment's were either deleted, marked as spam or someone using multiple accounts would appear out of ether and try to undermine what they were saying. Rather like you are unsuccessfully trying to do here. Quite a coincidence. What say you my good man?

  • In 1991 the genre broke into the mainstream with the success of Brand New Heavies. After one eponymous album (1990) with Acid Jazz Records the group moved on to FFRR Records for their hit singles.... FALSE

What genre? Pray tell me where is the evidence for that? Why didn't you check that out as well?

Again false and inaccurate. Brand New Heavies were not responsible for breaking anything at all. In fact they only became well known at the end of the Brit Funk era. Funk in the UK broke into the mainstream in the mid 1980's and it did so directly as a result of the rare groove era initiated us from the original British Soul movement.

Light of the World, Imagination, Alton Edwards, Second Image, Central Line, Paul Hardcastle/ Direct Drive, Eddy Grant,Linx/David Grant, Phil Fearon and Galaxy, Level 42, Shakatak, David Grant, Jaki Graham, SADE, Hot Chocolate, Omar lye Fook, The Cool Notes, 5 star, The Funk Masters, Maxi Priest, Loose Ends to name a few were all on TOTP. That's Top of the Pops the biggest music show on UK Television at the time. They were all known by the mainstream. Many were household names in the UK back in the 80's so how did Brand New Heavies break Funk into the mainstream? Most Soulboys didn't even know who BNH were until the early 90's. So where is your evidence for that statement? I mean this is really really poor.

And further more the resurgence of the 1970's Jazz-funk/post Motown sound also wrongly described on this page as acid jazz began with Tribute by the Pasedenas in 1987. Not with anybody in the 1990's. That track played tribute to the sounds we grew up with in England just as people did in the States. James Brown, Miles Davis, Stevie Wonder, Rick James and so on. That sound was based on the Rance Allen sound. One of the many 70's Funk grooves. We did not invent it hence the word "tribute" Former sound system Soul to Soul with Jazzie B Expanded on that in 1989 by bringing back the Donald Byrd/Barry White sound with the Dennis Edwards Bassline from don't look any further. (I am writing all this not for you but for other people who want to know about music in the UK from someone who was there and not rely on articles written by people who were not)

So now tell me how are Brand new heavies responsible for breaking funk into the mainstream in 1990? Where is your credible source for that Sir? Why didn't you look into that? You seem to have set yourself up as the defender of a page which should not really exist.


Quoting the same nonsense I have already debunked you said:

.....both explicitly name and define acid jazz, and by doing so support acid jazz's existence as a genre;

Do you understand what the word explicitly means? go and look it up. (not on wikipedia as it's probably wrong!)

Show me the exact passage where it explicitly name's and defines acid jazz, as a musical genre. And while your there collect the names of a few bands that belong to this non-existent English genre known only to Americans in the mid-West and former employees of acid jazz records!


You said; they need not literally contain the phrase "acid jazz is a genre."

{Insert expletive!} What the dickens are you talking about Man? When you are in a hole stop digging. Where did you get that from? Of course they flipping do. What do you mean they don't have to contain those words?! Of course they do. So what proof do you have then? Do you think no one can define Jazz as a Musical Genre and list the names of multiple Jazzmen? If one was asked to name Blues musicians, or Rock musicians or Country and western musicians you reckon the average bloke might be able to name a few especially if they were into that type of music? Do you think they would be able to describe what the Blues is or Country or maybe Funk? Yes of course they would. Tell me Kiss and 10cc Rock or Soul? James Brown and Funkadelic Country or Funk? Give me a break. "not literally contain the phrase" lol!

Now for the umpteenth time name me one acid jazz band. You cannot even though I have asked you the same simple question multiple times. If you can name a Rock band and a Soul band then name me an Acid jazz band. You cannot because there aren’t any.So IYO a couple of paragraphs describing a sound which is just regurgitated Blue Note Jazz, 1970's Jazz Funk and Roy Ayers constitutes a musical genre invented in England because an English DJ plays it?


You said: "a more thorough reading finds that it instead concludes that acid jazz is simply a term applied to a certain style of jazz"

  • SIGH* That certain type of Jazz is had you bothered to read everything I have written on this page is Jazz Funk and Soul To be quite honest I don't think you actually know what a musical genre is. Strangely you seem to know who the Beatles are though.

You said: Whether you personally trust these sources or believe what they say is simply beside the point

No it damn well isn't. It's what you say that is beside the point. You have no knowledge of Jazz Funk and neither do you have any real authority. There are no sources which claim acid jazz is a musical genre because there is no such thing as acid jazz. That's why you can't find anything credible on the whole of the Internet that explicitly states that acid jazz is a musical genre. And that's why thought you would try and move the goalposts thinking you could fool me! But you don't have an agenda here though do you?


You said: There should be no further debate to be had about whether these sources support acid jazz as a genre or are considered credible; the burden is now on you, 620 Funk master,

Once more who do you think you are? I'm not debating anything at all. I am educating you on music in my Country and I am telling you none of those sources are credible and neither do any of them claim there is a genre called acid jazz. Further more you are in no position to shut down any debate on wikipedia. Your permission is not required, No the burden is on You! You have chosen to step forward and defend this article despite the fact there is no such thing as acid jazz. I believe you know that. There is something suspicious here and one has to ask exactly who you are what your motivation is on this page. Others may decide that for themselves.


"a multitude of music articles".... WHERE?

So where are they then? There is not a multitude of media articles that claim acid jazz is a musical genre. Any media article which claims acid jazz is a musical genre is written by someone who has no knowledge of musical history. By someone who was not around in the 1970's or was never a part of the British Soul tribe of the 1970's and 1980's. By Someone who has knowledge of Brit Funk,20th Century Blues and Soul, Funk, Jazz, Jazz Funk, Jazz Soul, The World sound, Bossa Nova, Black Latin, Disco, Electrified Funk, New Jack Swing and Neo Soul. None of the above was invented in England. Our generation in the UK Imitated those sounds. We did not invent 1960's 1970's and 1980's Black American music in the 1990's. If anybody claims that we did then they are either misinformed by articles like this or they are a liar.


You said: Please understand that I am not a steadfast supporter of acid jazz being a genre; my interest is in preventing sourced information from being superseded by unbacked claims

Backed by what and who? You could have fooled me. I said from the outset please don't insult my intelligence. Blue Note Jazz Funk and the original Jazzmen of the 1940's and 50's are a reality and so is Stevie Wonder, Roy Ayres and all the Bands whose names I have repeated on this page. Are you claiming they don't exist? Little or nothing on this acid jazz page is sourced information. It's False. I’m astonished that no one has questioned it before. I think it may be that no one over the age of say 45 even knows that 1970's Black American Jazzfunk and Soul is now being claimed as 1990's English acid Jazz. If you were really a true Wikipedian into seeking truth and assisting the public in their education then by now half of this web page would have already been re-written by you or you would have got someone else to do it as you would have checked out all the information written down by me a found that everything I have said is bang on the money. You didn't. That tell me a lot. There will be debate as long as I or anyone else chooses there to be and when this page is edited I will not be asking you. As I said You have already been warned having been involved in an editing war. Now I see why. You should not be on wikipedia. Thanks for the tips. A reply is not required.

Here is quote from a credible source for you which I have just discovered on this very website:

"This Conflict of interest/Noticeboard (COIN) page is for determining whether a specific editor has a conflict of interest (COI) for a specific article...

"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard. 620Funkster (talk) 23:20, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

In this edit, you changed the content of my comment. Editing other users' comments on talk pages without their permission is disallowed on Wikipedia, and I have undone the edit to my comment. The changes you made do not seem to be malicious on your part—just don't do it again. In reading your latest comment, there are many points I would like to address, but I feel the most necessary thing to tell you is, with all due respect, the following: Wikipedia requires all content to be WP:Verifiable. This is not negotiable. This is true no matter who you are or what you have to say. If you do not accept this, your only option is to cease your editing ambitions on this site. You must supply credible sources to support any changes you wish to make. I recommend that you read that link before constructing a response. The only thing standing in your way from making the desired changes you wish to make is your continued failure to provide any reliable sources that support your argument. It is not up to me or any other editor to do this for you. Improvements to articles are always welcome, and you could very well be right, judging by other users on this page who make similar claims. However, until you provide credible sources that support any changes you wish to make, these claims hold absolutely no water. Don't bother continuing to argue that the sources I have provided are not credible and/or do not support acid jazz's existence as a genre; if you have a problem with them, inquire at the reliable sources noticeboard, because as far as I am concerned, there is no more valid debate to had about them. Know that if you make the edit you have proposed in your last comment without citing any credible sources, said edit will be reverted without a moment's hesitation. That is not how Wikipedia operates. If you desire a response to other points made in your response, I will provide it, though not necessarily in a timely fashion. Good luck with your editing. Life of Tau (talk) 06:35, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Profile deleted a 2nd time- INTERESTING- Censorship will not work acid jazz does not exist as a musical genre.[edit]

Well well, Once again my profile was deleted. Page does not exist (You may create the page "620Funkster". There were no results matching the query.) I go to re-create it and am told the name already exists. Very strange. This is now the second time this has happened. I asked you to shed some light on it last time and you claimed you didn't know what happened even though everything is logged here and you know exactly how this place works. Until I can figure the ins and outs of this website find out how to contact the right people and who to report you and your behaviour on this page to I will continue. No matter how many new profiles I have to create.

You claim I edited your work! Now why would I want to do that? There isn't anything you have said that worries me. On the contrary. It's a good record on you and how you personally operate. Failing to answer questions, moving goalposts and the like. I barely know how to edit my own posts, sign my signature or find my way around this site. The first comments I made were in new sections. You were the one who replied to me in one of those sections so I replied to you. I literally have no idea you are talking about so I have created new section and yet another profile. You seemed to have found an edit very quickly, strange that you couldn't or wouldn't find out what happen to my original profile isn't it? Are you going to tell me what happened to the last one? As I become more familiar with this intricate site I will find out.

Why on earth would I be concerned about your posts on this acid jazz talk page? Far from it my good man. They are evidence a great illustration of how people collude to re-write history and attempt to disenfranchise the Blacks in America of what they created in-spite of all their hardships and suffering. African American Jazz Funk and Soul of the 60's 70's and 80's is being stolen from them by the writer of this article, and the credit is being given to a record company in London for whom the writer is a former employee (Conflict of Interest ignored by wikipedia) robustly supported by an administrator on said website. That's brilliant. Why would I wish to delete a news headline like that? I couldn't have asked for anything better and the fact that someone has now twice tried to delete my profile without any explanation is the icing on the cake. All your comments and actions on this page need to be preserved. It will make great reading in the history books.

You said: "If you desire a response to other points made in your response, I will provide it" I thought that’s what you were here for in the first place. Be my guest. I'm sure it will provide me with great entertainment.

You said:until you provide credible sources that support any changes you wish to make]], these claims hold absolutely no water.


I have already outlined why the claims on this page hold no water and if you were doing the job you appear to have been given then you would have taken steps to correct some of it or asked for citations but you just ignore the questions. If you know enough about Black music to edit a page on the Beatles then you know full well that everything on this page is false even if you don't know the whole story. You have only quotes you have supplied that speak about this socalled genre confirm what I have said.

In an article called "ACID JAZZ – DOES IT REALLY EXIST? we see the following three quotes:

“Acid jazz is just a phrase, a name – it means nothing,” he says. “It just gets more young people listening to it.”

“I don’t really know what it is,” he apologises. “What is it? What is Acid Jazz? Apparently I’m part of it, but I don’t know what it is, I really don’t.”

“It’s a scam,” whispers James Taylor as he passes between Quartet and bar. “It’s a way of selling records, it’s a way of making money.”

So why haven’t you taken any action on that? Why didn't you ask the writer of this page for clarification? why didn't you do any number of things? It's Strange that you ignored the only quotes which speak the truth. Do those quotes not hold water? Just Who do you think you're fooling here?

And finally editing other peoples words is an attempt at subterfuge (deceit) Don't you dare accuse me of that again. I am not the liar on this page. If a mistake was made then it was made unintentionally so as for your comment "don't do it again". You take those words and put them somewhere else. The acid jazz page is deceitful not the individual who is trying to correct that deceit.And for the record I regard these now two incidences of having my profile deleted, you and your defence of this false and inaccurate article as being suspicious. I hope someone looks into it. In the meantime I will be looking at the notice boards you suggested. And if my profile is deleted again then I will create a 4th one. Thanks. Real Soulboy (talk) 11:28, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Please stick to one account, and please be civil to other editors. Your questions about how Wikipedia works can be answered - although some of them might need an editor with administrator rights to reply, such as when you ask about deleted pages - but people tend to be much less willing to help those who attack and belittle them. Please stop doing that. Thank you. --bonadea contributions talk 14:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


You tell me to stick to one account when I have already stated that I have had two accounts deleted for no apparent reason and with no explanation given? Is this how wikipedia the online encyclopedia operates? So any administrator who likes can delete an account because they don't like what’s being said? because they don't like the truth? How am I supposed to stick to one account when every time I return my account has been deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Real Soulboy (talkcontribs) 16:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Accounts cannot be deleted, so whatever it is that has happened, it's not that, and the two other accounts seem to be active and unblocked. Above you mentioned your "profile" being deleted, so I assumed you meant that you had created a page that was removed, but maybe I misunderstood. In any case, we should not use this article talk page to discuss that (I know I started it, but I was not sure which of your accounts you would be logged into, so posting to your talk page might not have reached you). My suggestion if you have questions about deleted pages or problems with your account is that you go to your user talk page here, post the template {{adminhelp}} and then add your question below it (it will turn into a large yellow box on your talk page, signalling to administrators that you have a question). Please be specific about exactly what it is that has disappeared and what error messages (if any) that you see. --bonadea contributions talk 16:36, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

So Giles peterson invented soul? lmao, what a load of bollocks.[edit]

You say please be civil to editors. Why should anyone be civil to him, He’s a liar who's overseeing a page full of lies. Do you lot think people are dumb?

I was in the acid Jazz movement from 1995 onwards. Before that I was a metalhead. I was into Jamiroquai and the Brand New heavies but we all knew it was black soul music from the nineteen seventies. Everyone knew this music is old school Jazzfunk from Roy Ayers and Lonnie Liston Smith and their contemporaries Ive done literally thousands of Jazzfunk mixes over the years. I know probably as much about funk as my elders who remember the nineteen seventies and I've never heard of anything called club jazz. These aren’t acid jazz bands at all this music is rare groove. They’re soul, jazz funk, Brazilian soul, jazz hip-hop bands. How did rare groove reach America from London when it came from America in the first place lol? That makes sense to you. American Soul music was invented by Giles Peterson and spread back to America? ffs seriously?

Whats Giles peterson got to do with Black music other than the fact that he made tons of money out of it? no ones even heard of him. Everyone on the page says theres no such thing as acid jazz (As some people have stated to the point of exhaustion)what have you done about it. Aren’t you supposed to be an editor? What is your job on wikipedia to cover up lies or to edit and correct them?

I looked at your profile page and I see that you're a Swedish Lady. Well thats great,and it's nice to see that you appear to have suddenly taken an interest in Black music, American soul and rare groove. Well I'm from Essex and i just want to let you know that acid jazz isn't a genre of music created in the UK and that Soul music comes from America not from London england in the mid 80's or from Giles Peterson. I also find it bit strange that you suddenly appeared out of nowhere to shut down the conversation and to defend people who are obviously connected to acid jazz records pushing these complete falsehoods.

You say on your page My courage always rises with every attempt to intimidate me. Is that supposed to be some sort of a threat? Sorry to be rude but I think you are in on it. I think you are all in on it. I think it's you who thinks that you can intimidate people. Catch my drift?

I can see that stuff has been deleted. Where are the logs for example. Who deleted them? and Why are you asking people whats been deleted, Aren’t you supposed to be some sort of supervisor. You should be able to find out whats been deleted very easily. Wikipedia has backups everywhere and sooner or later you're all going to get shown up. If you were a real editor this page would not be here or it would have been corrected. You're not fooling anyone. The clock is ticking. People will soon be onto you i'm sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ManU4life (talkcontribs) 22:24, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

@ Bondea ive just gone to your page to leave you a message and to ask why you have done nothing about the lies on this page and I get this message:

Due to some very unpleasant trolling and frequent personal attacks on my talk page, it is sometimes protected so that only editors who have made a certain number of edits to Wikipedia can post here. This means that the actions of one person makes it impossible for all good-faith new and unregistered editors who might want to contact me here to do so. I apologise for this inconvenience. If I have posted a message on your talk page, I am probably watching it and will see any reply you post there. If you want to make it more likely that I see your post, you can use the template @Bonadea: which will make your post show up in my notices.


I wonder. now why would you get unpleasant trolling and frequent personal attacks on your talk page?

Is it because people have discovered what I and perhaps others who have read this have sussed out about you? I could tell that you were a put up job the minute i read what you had written here.If you are getting frequent abuse then I bet there is a reason for it. Like your actions or should i say non actions on this page for example. This Acid jazz wikipedia page is spreading false information. You know full well that it is yet you are protecting the authors.

@ManU4life and Bonadea: I am only making this comment to notify bonadea. I am not here to have a discussion with someone falsely accusing me of having a personal connection to the article's subject. ManU4life, If you believe an administrator's intervention is required, go to the administrators' noticeboard. LifeofTau 00:01, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Acid jazz is a genre because music scholars, journalists and album reviewers describe it as such. Wikipedia is not going to ignore these very reliable sources just because someone from Essex has a different opinion. Binksternet (talk) 00:14, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Another American on a page about London Soul?[edit]

 I saw your comment a few weeks ago but I ignored it as I was waiting for the Swedish lady to turn up. I've given her long enough now, but she's gone missing just like the author as she knows she's been busted (Thats if she's even a real person).So it looks like they sent you as a replacement. Just because someone comes from Essex has a different opinion? I don't like being rude to elders but if you talk crap or address me in an insulting manner I will give it right back. So get stuffed. Like the others on the page im not offering an opinion im adding my voice to all the others here who know that this page is a pile of crap. A tissue of lies is that clear? I'm telling you about London because I live here.
 What has Black music in london got to do with a Californian like you either or a swede for that matter? Why is it all foreigners protecting the lies on this page? If you have read all the comments written on the page  ignore them and then come out with a stupid statement like that then no doubt you are part of the gang. Yes im accusing you too. What scholar or journalist says that Jazz, Funk and Soul, Latin Soul, Trip Hop, Hip Hop, British Funk, Calypso or Rare Groove came from London? Calling yourself a scholar means didley squat. Its generally used as a fig-leaf to cover insecurities or a lack of knowledge and if a journalist or so-called music scholar thinks that we have Giles Peterson to thank for Soul, Jazz, funk, Salsa and even Neo Soul or Rare Groove music then he or she is not worth the name. Jazz and Funk and Soul are genres. Acid jazz is not. Acid jazz was our movement. It was a M-O-V-E-M-E-N-T get it? and I was in it do you get that as well? A movement as in a group of people who were into jazz funk and rare groove in the nineties when everyone else was into House, Rap or Brit pop. You live in California, I live in London. You claim to be a sound engineer from the 1960s long before i was born. That was time of Motown and Berry Gordy. That means you were alive when jazzfunk started in America but yet you're defending the liars here saying  that it comes from acid jazz records in London during the mid 80's? Jazz funk and soul was created by acid jazz records and spread to America? A 1960s American agrees with that? yeah right.
Are you sure you're also not in some way involved with acid jazz records? everyone else writing crap and deleting things here seems to be. If acid jazz is a genre I have never heard of it. But what do i know im just someone who was in the movement. I mean what would I know about London compared to an American from the west coast. You people are really funny. Do you lot think people are dumb? evidently you must do if you think you're fooling anyone here. Show me a quote from any credible Londoner anywhere who says that acid jazz is a music genre and not a movement, and then do what has been asked already name an acid jazz song. Not Jazz funk like Lonnie liston Smith or Herbie Hancock or Roy Ayres, not Soul like Marvin Gaye or Luther Vandross, not Latin Soul like Azymuth, not American Trip hop or hip hop like A Tribe Called Quest not Britfunk like Level 42, Incognito or Soul to soul, not UK neo soul like Omar or Mark Morrison. Specifically  name an acid jazz track. Any song at all. If it's a musical genre then there should be thousands. It's piling up and you're not fooling anyone. Go on, name the first acid jazz song and name one of these 1980's acid jazz bands which no one has ever heard of.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by ManU4life (talkcontribs) 04:41, 1 January 2018 (UTC) 
@ManU4life and Binksternet: This reply is solely to notify Binksternet of your comment addressing him and to inform you of how to format comments. In the future, know that placing {{re|TypeUsernameHere}} in your comment while also ending the comment with four tildes (~~~~) will allow the user to be notified of the comment. Also, the spaces at the beginning of each paragraph are unnecessary; they are the reason the above paragraphs each have a gray background. LifeofTau 07:12, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

New Grove on origin[edit]

Possibly the most serious and reliable source about jazz is the three-volume New Grove Dictionary of Jazz. I have volume I of the second edition here in front of me. On page 10, the entry for acid jazz says that acid jazz got its name from "Gilles Peterson, a London disc jockey in 1987 in an off the cuff response to the dance music known as 'acid house' (recordings of which another disc jockey had been playing immediately before Peterson's own set began). It is the first jazz term to have been coined by a disc jockey rather than a musician or critic."
Vmavanti (talk) 23:28, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vmavanti: Peterson's supposed origination of the term is already noted in the article (Various origins have been attributed to the name of the genre, including claims to have coined the term by DJs Gilles Peterson and Chris Bangs), but you are welcome to cite the New Grove Dictionary as an additional source. LifeofTau 00:13, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Well, that sentence presents the matter as though it were debatable. Sources make all the difference. It isn't something I'm going to debate, because I don't care. I do find New Grove more reliable than most sources on matters pertaining to jazz.
Vmavanti (talk) 04:28, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
@Vmavanti: Looking through the article's edit history, the sentence's wording seems to be the result of this Last.fm page claiming that Chris Bangs was the first to use the term. Since that website is not a reliable source according to WP:MUSICSOURCE, I don't see any problem with rewording the sentence to directly credit Peterson with coining "acid jazz" while adding a reference citing the New Grove Dictionary. LifeofTau 06:28, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

List of musicians[edit]

There are two unsourced sections that list musicians associated with acid jazz. Where did these names come from? There need to be sources. Also, given that it's debatable and subjective who is more "key" to acid jazz, it would be better to merge the two sections to eliminate any conflict. My preference, though, would be to eliminate the sections all together. There are enough lists on Wikipedia and the "key" names should be mentioned in the article. New Grove handles it by naming people who were involved from the beginning: Disc jockey Gilles Peterson and "his collaborators" disc jockeys "Simon Booth, Jez Nelson, and Paul Bradshaw...New musicians, such as the James Taylor Quartet, Snowboy, Galliano, and Booth's Working Week, and several young black musicians pioneering the renaissance of black jazz in Britain, notably Steve Williamson, the flutist Phillip Bent, and the singer Cleveland Watkiss, then began to compose and perform new acid-jazz tracks...Brand New Heavies and Jamiroquai achieved considerable fame..."
Vmavanti (talk) 00:58, 5 February 2018 (UTC)