Talk:Alexandrine

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Origins of accentual-syllabic (iambic) alexandrine[edit]

Little agreement seems to exist over the origins of the six iambic footed Alexandrine. Some attribute its origin to Dryden's 17th century poem: 'Ode To The Feast Of Alexander'. This, however, is improbable as the Alexandrine is thought to be much older. Others date it to a 12th century collection of romances on 'Alexander Of Macedon'. Yet others to a poet whose name was Alexander, while others still take it as far back as Alexander Severus, Emperor of Rome. Whatever the truth, there is little doubt that it is a form that has experienced no small degree of popularity. Some examples of this form are as follows, (the second part, after the last comma, is the Alexandrine):

'Man may not augment, Where necessity fair resolves with false content.'

'When first begun, remote seems far away, But continuing much - much nearer seems as day.'

'Vanity, thou art a human failing, First relieved of the gods and next of holiness.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.32.13 (talkcontribs) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.32.8 (talkcontribs)

French in English Wikipedia[edit]

The paragraph "Syllabic verse" use French poetry as example. Isn't there English poetry using syllabic verse? This is English Wikipedia, I guess much users do not understand French, and I guess English poetry is rich enougth to find suitable examples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeDi (talkcontribs)

English syllabic verse exists, but it isn't traditional. I think it began in the late nineteenth century. I can't think of any syllabic poets who adapted the alexandrine. That said, I'd be happy to be wrong. English lacks French's tradition of syllabic alexandrines. This is why the examples are in French. We should probably translate the text and link to an article on French versification.--168.122.245.185 (talk) 02:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I'd just add that the article also gives more weight to French alexandrines because they are more encyclopedically notable as a topic within poetry. This may be the English wikipedia, but our goal is to write about all notable subjects, not to skew our treatment to English literature if the bulk of the subject's importance lies elsewhere. Of course, I'm all for additions that will more fully discuss any notable English alexandrines we may be neglecting! Let's distinguish between that and removing French examples in favor of English ones. Wareh (talk) 19:22, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Caesura Position[edit]

In the second line of the Baudelaire segment, shouldn't the caesura come after the "que", or was the position of the pause malleable to the context? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.170.27.164 (talk) 23:36, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

In that instance "Elle" is pronounced with two syllables. In French Poetry, "elle" is pronounced in two syllables if followed by a consonant, much in the same way that elision becomes obligatory when obligatory (specifically because it affects the number of syllables). See the the French article on poetry. Zogwarg (talk) 17:41, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Proposal to split article[edit]

As a sort of counter-proposal to @Mike Rosoft's comment at the recently-created Talk:Czech alexandrine, I am recommending that the current content of Alexandrine be split off into English alexandrine and French alexandrine and that the current article page be re-purposed as a general introduction and history of this category of meters, with links to all the national varieties (@Anagram16 has recently created 2: Polish alexandrine and Czech alexandrine, and has suggested a 3rd). This article will also then serve as a sort of grand disambiguation page. As I see it, this proposal involves 2 main distinct questions, each of which may generate fairly independent discussions: Phil wink (talk) 16:39, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Lump or split[edit]

  • Split (1) Although all (or at least most) "alexandrines" have historical and structural relationships, each national/linguistic variety is genuinely distinct; think of these as species of the genus "alexandrine". For example, French is syllabic verse and English is syllabotonic (accentual-syllabic) -- and this is one of the most foundational differences in metrics. (2) As our coverage of national/linguistic varieties increases, a single catch-all article will increasingly become a laundry-list, much of whose content will be an unwanted distraction to any given reader. Phil wink (talk) 16:39, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Nomenclature[edit]

  • "Alexandrine" as "genus" page I propose that "Alexandrine" not be reduced to a simple disambiguation page, nor that it be reserved for whatever national variety we imagine to be primary (I'm happy to go into more detail, but suffice it to say that there will be no right answer to "on the English Wikipedia, should the French or English variety be blessed with the simple article title 'Alexandrine'?"). Rather it should serve as an overview article in which of course each national/linguistic species has a link. I'm happy to help generate this new "genus" content. Each "species" article will be named as suggested above: English alexandrine, French alexandrine, Polish alexandrine, Czech alexandrine, etc. Phil wink (talk) 16:39, 27 July 2016 (UTC)