Talk:Armstrong Whitworth F.K.3/Archive 1

Archive 1

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500 built ?

A quick check of numbers and I can only get 351?

• 7 x FK2s 5328-5334
• 50 built by AW 5504-5553
• 1 built by AW 5614
• 42 built by AW 6186-6225
• 1 built by AW A1967 appears to be only a reservation and may not have been built.
• 50 built by H&B A1461-A1510
• 50 built by H&B A8091-A8140
• 150 built by H&B B9501-B9650 (was 300 and B9651 to B9900 cancelled)

So it looks like 250 built at Luton by H&B, 94 by AW at Newcastle, and 7 FK.2s = 351 any comments ? MilborneOne (talk) 20:53, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Tapper (1988) has approx 150 by AW (including A8091-A8140) and 350 by H&B (A1461-1510 and B9501-9800) - it does not mention any cancellations. Mason's The British Bomber since 1914 has the same.Nigel Ish (talk) 21:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Bruce in The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps (Military Wing) (1982) has an initial 100 aircraft order from AW (7 FK2s, 93 FK3s (5504-5553, 5614 and 6186-6227), with a further 50 (A8091-8140) ordered from AW in July 1916 and subcontracted to H&B, and 300 ordered direct from H&B in August 1917 (B9501-9800) although "it is doubtful whether all of these were delivered".Nigel Ish (talk) 21:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Air-Britain Aeromilitaria December 2010 issue has an article on the F.K.3 with individual a/c histories, it says B9651 to B9900 cancelled 13 September 1917. MilborneOne (talk) 21:31, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

enemy use

is it out of scope for this wiki to allow enemy war reports ?

bulgarian service

On February 12th 1917 the young Lt. Stauffer landed by acident behind enemy lines in Bulgaria. The foto above shows the unhappy hereo in front of his plane, factory number 6219. The plane was later used on 42 successfully missions over Saloniki by bulgarian pilots from Belitza airfield, mostly night raids against british forces. On Mai 23th the plane was shoot down by aa-fire. The pilot could land safely and return to his lines.

The major point is that this needs to be cited to a reliable source before it is added. It will also need serious copy-editing (and a little trimming to avoid WP:WEIGHT issues - for example the pilot;s name and the aircraft's serial number are unnecessary, but sourcing is essential.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

i would expect that in fact these two dates are very importend to follow and verify the information. With your argumentation, you shouldnt even keep the foto ! could be tampered !--Gonzosft (talk) 08:11, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

here you can see confirmation from british site : http://theauxiliaries.com/men-alphabetical/men-s/stopher/stopher.html pilots vita : http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/auxiliaries/stopher/stopher.html diary of the group captain : http://www.qsl.net/gm0fne/diaryt~1.htm enough proof ?--Gonzosft (talk) 09:22, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

While the story is credible, and the sources you gave do at least indicate that an FK.3 flown by Stopher force landed and was captured in good condition by the Bulgarians, frustratingly, I'm not sure whether the sources meet WP:RS - which is needed if the information is to be included, and also they do not seem to demonstrate the key point as to whether the aircraft was used operationaly by the Bulgarians against the British. I've asked at WP:aircraft for further opinions.Nigel Ish (talk) 18:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

In reviewing those three refs provided they are all anonymous personal websites and thus fall afoul of WP:SPS. None are useable as references on Wikipedia. If this really happened then it will be reported in a published history book somewhere. It is just a matter of finding it. - Ahunt (talk) 19:44, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Air Power of the Kingdom of Bulgaria, Part II by Dimitar Nedialkov published by Fark Ood (no date or ISBN) provides both the claim and a photo of said FK.3 in A-H markings however the book ("In Action" type stapled wide magazine format) repeatedly misidentifies it as an "FK8" (which it definitely is not). Photos are on pages 40, 41, 43, 46 and text is on spread out through the whole range of pages. There is also table listing specs of various types on p.59 where the specs are for an FK.3, but labelled as an FK8 again. No mention of actual combat against the British specifically though it claims it was used by 1 Aeroplane Otdelenie on p.41, and on the front lines by an unspecified Otdelenie on p46 and that said units engaged the British. The RFC pilots name is also mentioned. I should add that I have seen photos of this aircraft elsewhere, including in period publications and there is no indication of the photo being doctored.NiD.29 (talk) 20:39, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Dont think we need anymore than is already in the operators sections, that is Bulgaria operated one captured machine. I dont think the sources are strong enough to say anymore and mentioning it in the main operational section is probably undue weight. MilborneOne (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, especially since what was provided sounds like propaganda rather than any sort of reliable info. One was definitely captured and it was used by a unit on the front facing the British. Everything else was likely from the imagination of the reporter.NiD.29 (talk) 00:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

The photograph certainly doesn't look like a captured pilot being snapped in front of his aircraft - he looks perfectly relaxed and happy, even a little proud. Not a hint of being shaken by his unexpected capture, or sullen at being photographed by his enemies. Since he seems to be in a open field, with no buildings or other aircraft visible there are no clues there. But shouldn't there be? Wouldn't one have expected Bulgarian personnel to be gathered round to make the point that they had captured a British aeroplane? Or at least the background to the photo to have been composed showing an aeroplane or two other than a British one to make the point? And where is his observer? Unlike the B.E.2, the FK3 was not set up to be flown solo - you'd need ballast in the rear cockpit to keep the CG right - thus losing any advantage (like being able to carry extra fuel or bombs) to be gained by leaving the observer at home. So assuming the plane has just landed on the Bulgarian airfield and they are taking the pilot's picture - why not the observer's too? Somehow the whole thing just doesn't ring true. If this particular aircraft and pilot were later captured as described - this looks very much like a "happier days" picture, taken earlier. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:50, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I trust you are referring to the infobox photo - I agree it must have been taken beforehand.

The book has 2 shots of the aircraft in RFC markings with no-one around, a group shot with a rather glum Captain O'Dwyer (CO of 17 squadron) with some Bulgarians but sans observer or aeroplane. The book also shows the aeroplane with a Bulgarian Colonel and seemingly still in RFC markings. The final shot shows it with crosses instead of roundels, but with the serial intact, and two unidentifiable individuals in flying suits are standing in the cockpit. Aside from these shots I have (saved from the web) additional shots showing the crosses, and Bulgarians clustered either around or in the aircraft. The FK.3 Minidatafile has the same shot as is shown in the infobox and says it is believed it was 2nd Lt AC Stopher of 47 squadron who was captured while flying solo (which is entirely possible as they were flown solo for bombing missions) - but this isn't the same person as was shown as having been captured by the Bulgarian book (though it is possible that they found a photo of an unrelated incident). To make matters worse, the datafile's text suggests the pilot of 6219 could have been Lt. Marius McMoor according to a German account (but there are no records of someone with that name), and there are also problems with the dates. Neither name accords to the Bulgarian book however, which says it occured on 8 July 1917, while British records seem to indicate it was lost on 12 Feb 1917. I am thinking that two or more incidents, possibly involving an FK.3 AND and FK.8 have probably been confused, although I have seen no evidence (yet) of a captured FK.8 having being repainted - just an FK.3. The Minidatafile indicates that the aircraft was used operationally by the Bulgarians but casts serious doubt on the claims made regarding those operations.NiD.29 (talk) 04:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)