Talk:Basques/Archive 2

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Race and Genetics

Speaking about propaganda and neutrality, what about this paragraph:

Genetics

As part of the reinvention of the Basque national identity, the Iberian idea of the "limpieza de sangre" ("cleanliness of blood") was adapted by Sabino Arana, founder of the nationalist party PNV, who propagated the idea that Basque people were genetically distinct and even superior to neighbouring people. One can find such racist arguments in Sabino Arana's writings. This idea still surfaces occasionally in the Basque nationalist community and some (questionable) evidence has been given to support it.

Is it "encyclopedic" enough? I encountered a similar paragraph about suppossed basque racism in the Ancient History part. There was another one about the Roman conquest or unconquest that had the same flavor, which I changed a little bit. Idiazabal 23:13, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think all that (Limpieza de sangre (there should be a mention of the natural born gentry of Biscaynes (?)), racist Arana, occasional strikes of racism among Basque nationalism) are true, and are interesting to put in place any research on Basque genetics. The conclusions will be viewed in relation to Basque race theories. What is your problem with that paragraph?

By the way, the article on Sabino Arana is very stubby. -- Error 23:41, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As I understand it -- and please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know the Basque region firsthand -- one of the big shifts in Basque nationalism during the clandestine period under Franco was the shift from race as the predominant justification of nationalism to language taking on that role. Would you both generally agree with that?

It's not so simple. Arana's nationalism was based on race (and religion?) alone. However the language element crawled in with the 20th century. Maybe in the Primo de Rivera dictatorship. Probably José Antonio Aguirre was less racist than Winston Churchill. Later nationalisms have taken other views. ETA somewhen considered only the Basque Working People. Basque capitalists were not Basque enough, and immigrant workers could become good Basques if they supported ETA. I'd say that the current mainstream nationalism values more the adhesion to nationalism than ancestry, language (see Jesús Anasagasti), or residence. But a given nationalist can judge Basqueness on a mixture of factors. -- Error 01:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would assume that about Arana the statement is relatively uncontroversial (though I certainly would welcome a citation!). The statement about "This idea still surfaces occasionally in the Basque nationalist community and some (questionable) evidence has been given to support it," could use a lot of citation: citation of recent use of the idea in the Basque nationalist community, citation of the kind of evidence cited, and citation of why this evidence should be considered questionable. That said, I'd be extremely surprised if anything in the paragraph is false. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:51, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

Sabino Arana's main assertion was "Euskadi is the fatherland of the Basques". To try to portray Arana or anyone of that times as racist isn't acceptable in my opinion, as everybody was, it was the general point of viow then. Think a little bit; we are speaking about a time when Canovas del Castillo, the Spanish president was sclavist and wrote about the Cubans as subhuman people. The American presidents were also divided among sclavist and abolitionist. Do someone portray the American history of the time of one of racist, moreover, traslating it to present day Democrat or Republican parties?

My points on Arana's racism are on Talk:Sabino Arana -- Error 01:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Then, why is it going to be OK to do it when portraying the Basques. Such remarks, pure basque-bashing Spanish propaganda, were in several parts of this encyclopedic entry.

Today the only government in Spain with a black inmigrant among its members is just the Basque.

And about Arana's speeches about the Castilian "invasion"; to judge it one has to take into account that the Franco-Spanish borders and the Spanish taxes douanes were stablished in the Pyrinees just in the previous generation to Arana. So, after the Convention war (1793), the first Carlist War (1833-1839) and the second Carlist War (1872-1876) the frontier borders were definitely moved to the Pyrinees. Perhapps from the Spanish point of viow any critic to such events, of so big importance for the Basques, can be reduced to a racist one, but any other people or country would feel it like a invasion. That was the meaning of Arana's speeches and writings. Of course the Spanish historiography, specially in the XX, were more than 50 years were lived under two militar dictatorships, worked to stablish such myth about Basque racism. But any Basque seeing such portray of himself in a encyclopedia necessarily has to feel outraged.

Now do what you like. I only tried to give the article such Basque point of viow. (About the Arana entry being a stub, I taked the liberty to ask other people for other point of viow and a broader understanding.)

Idiazabal 13:52, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

We could compare Arana's views with Cánovas del Castillo's or José Martí's and conclude racism was frequent in the 1890's but, after more than half a century of socialism and other progressive ideologies, we can't state everybody was racist.

--Erri4a 23:11, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, that's right. I haven't anything pro nor contra it. But then, what's the interest in pointing people, same Arana or anyone else, from that times as racist? And why no other people but Arana is pointed out as such? Perhapps to extend such smell to all de Basque nationalism and all the Basques even in present day? Someone even took the work to introduce the word "racist" to define the Basque Nationalist Party (while in other article cleaning Manuel Fraga Iribarne's, an assertion that can't be sustained except with a known agenda.Idiazabal 23:36, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think that we could agree that Arana's ideas are racist from a modern point of view. My point is that Arana's views on race do color the reception of later research on Basque race and Basque genetics. Since Arana is the founder of Basque nationalism, Arana's views are important. Can we agree? The role of racism in today's Basque nationalism can be dealed with in its article. -- Error 01:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No, I can't agree. Arana wasn't more racist than any man from his XIX century. And to bring it to pinpoint actual Basque nationalist only can be understand through the Spanish propaganda. In fact there have had two progroms recently in Spain but we'll not say Spaniards are progromist. Although we do can say that there are plenty anti-basque xenofobia in actual Spanish media and political agenda. What's the point in bringing it here to a encyclopedia? Idiazabal 19:19, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Racist smell and Spanish propaganda

Sorry, (perhapps cause my intervention,) I think you should go through the deleted text and selectively restore the baby that was thrown out with the murky bathwater. But I had found several little points where there were included racism charges. I found just the same in the entry Basque Nationalist Party, surely made by the same author, User:Error.

Sorry for this problems.Idiazabal 18:46, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

User:Error, it sounds like you are coming from pretty much where I am on this, but (unsurprisingly) with more knowledge than me. I'm pretty comfortable saying that I will trust you as a judge of what is and is not appropriate to say in these articles. If you and Idiazabal can come to general agreement about what we should say in the article, and can try to track down any relevant citations, I'll gladly confine myself to trying to make sure it all finally ends up in good English! -- Jmabel | Talk 22:33, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

I'm waiting to Idiazabal to answer to my latest proposal (if he can find it, this page is getting confusing) -- Error 01:17, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

First, Cavalli-Sforza. Who is who contradicts his studies on genetic map and migrations?

Second, read the Encyclopedia Britannica writen when Arana was yet dead. Then what we know refer as ethnic group was called race. Everybody spoke about races when speaking about peoples then. And Arana as the rest of the people and encycolopedic knowlegde. It wasn't until Hitler that such term got the actual obvious negative connotations.

So, it is but a Spanish mythos that of the Basque racism (and a lot of other caracterizations) that have been used to a widely extended sport on basque-bashing. You have to know the widely extended Spanish anti-basquism, don't you? (I heard recently the own Spanish Catholic radio station name-calling as "terrorist" to French-Basque cardinal Etchegaray, Papal envoy for international relations, cause "he wears the Basque beret"; and it is but a minnor example.) Do you want we bring such sport here to the Wikipedia? or it would be better to open an article on anti-basque or anti-basquism? Idiazabal 12:39, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cavalli-Sforzas results are very preliminary, as he admits himself (I think they are based on a survey of 90 genes or so). They can be used to support particular theories, but it would be premature to list them as definite proof of anything. Apart from that, Idiazabal's ranting seems pretty directionless; we are not the Spanish government here, and not guilty of calling Basques terrorists or anything. (btw, if some Spaniards have an association of basques and terrorism today, with all due respects, but that may be connected with the fact that a certain basque separatist group used to go around blowing things up. Always a bad move if you want to win pepole's "hearts and minds"; the Palestinians made a similar mistake. They used to have a fair cause. Then they went around hijacking airplanes, and their popularity plummeted...) dab 13:03, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ha ha ha... Let me to laugh a little bit. Then, what's your point, perhapps that Arana was a bad guy because a hundred years after his death there are still some Basques trying to stablish their own state? Perhapps it is going to be enough for ending any controversy in such a way.

Oh, I forgot, also the Palestinians are the bad guys. What's the importance if they were preiously stolen his country. Perhapps we can conclude also that they are racist and any other charges any interested person would make. Surely when Sharon entered the Lebanon and murdered their children and elder won the "hearts and minds", didn't him.Idiazabal 11:13, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is the first time I have ever seen anyone try to justify ETA's conduct on the basis of Israels' behaviour toward the Palestinians. Quite a stretch.jmabel

Where have I "justify" ETA? Don't you know that it is punished with prison in Spain "to justify" and punished with ilegalization and clandestinization the mere no-codemnation? It was dab who defended the so-called racism or whatever Basque cause the Palestinians did who-knows-what. I only answered that they were stolen their country first.Idiazabal 01:35, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, don't draw much of a line from Arana to ETA. ETA when they formed were reacting against the PNV, and ETA shares the same criticisms of Arana's view on race that I do. (I actually first heard those criticisms from pro-ETA Basque exiles in the UK in the early 1970s.) I have no problem with ETA's overt ideology; their tactics are another matter, especially the escalation rather than de-escalation of violence after Franco's death and the restoration of constitutionality in Spain. jmabel

Well, I believe that you're a little bit confussed about ETA. There wasn't one ETA but several branches with great differences. But Arana's has nothing to do with it. Arana is history, same as some branches of ETA. But if you want we can discusse also about ETA, although I haven't seen yet its article but very merely.Idiazabal 01:35, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And I would say that both Israel and the Palestinians, like the Basques, have lost more than they have gained in the last quarter-century by the violence waged supposedly on their behalf. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:55, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

Well, this is a thing that you would have to explain to the young generations that are which maintain such campaigns of violence. Anyway, I would say that perhapps that was what passed to the Spaniards, that they lost more with his last 200 hundred years wars, persecutions, dictatorships, tortures, assasinations, imprisonments, ilegalizations, although certainly they can continue with his secular Basque-bashing and doctrines of hate to the Basques that we've seen during our life.

Please keep within the subject. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. The goal is to write great encyclopedia articles. It's easuy to get sidetracked, but I feel that discussing here Israel / Palestine will produce much heat and almost no light on Basque things. -- Error 04:26, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Xabier Arzalluz

I am working through a list of unwikified articles. I have found a short, unwikified article on Xabier Arzalluz, who I understand is a Basque politician. However the English in it is rather poor and I don't feel confident that I could fix it in a way that presents the correct information. Please could editors with better knowledge of Basque politics look at this article and make any appropriate changes. Thank you very much. --rbrwr ^± 20:22, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Incoherent paragraph

I cut the following from the "religion" section because it's enough of a mess to detract from the overall quality of the article. If someone can clean it up & restore it, great:

There is also Anbotoko Mari, a godess that since ancient times signaled the droughty and rainy phases as present day El Niño and La Niña. She crossed over the sky from mount Anboto to mount Txindoki in the form of a comet for periods of seven years. So the people knew the calendar of rainy period or droughty epoch. According to the phenomenon of El Niño, which know is moreless of 4'3, and being that of Anbotoko Mari of seven years, it has to date back at least three thousand years.

What needs to be fixed:

"signalled": how? what was the signal? Or is this the wrong word?
"as present day El Niño and La Niña": this seems to me to add nothing. "Drought" and "rain" are quite clear enough.
Why is one mountain italicized and the other not?
Is this saying that a comet took 7 years to traverse this distance? And then somehow magically went back and started over? or what?
How did this relate to the calendar?
"moreless of 4'3" is not coherent English, I have no idea what is meant; what follows isn't much clearer. Is this a claim that the El Niño / La Niña goes back at least 3,000 years and was identical to the tradition associated with this goddess?

& does anyone have a citation on this? Jmabel | Talk 00:32, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see your comments previously. Anyway, this legend-calendar of Anbotoko Mari is one of the main Basque legends. I would see if I explain myself enough to be undertood.

Anboto is a mountain near Durango, in Bizkaia, in which Mari lived in a cave. She traveled as a comet from Anboto to Txindoki for periods of 7 years, passing 7 years in Anboto and 7 in Txindoki, then depending which mountain she was in, it meant that...

Well, I've searched and found more than what we can digest. Here you have one pasage from the Encyclopedia Auñamendi (its javascript makes imposible for me to provide a link), look the last sentences:

Mari, la divinidad suprema.

Algunas simas y cuevas sirven de morada a genios a los que se atribuyen propiedades diabólicas y sobrenaturales. Además de los denominados sorgiña, lamiña, ireltxo, jentilla y Basajaun aparecen otros de más categoría como la Aketegiko Damia (Cegama), Muruko Damea (Ataun), Marimunduko (Berástegui), Maya (Oyartzun), etcétera siempre de sexo femenino. Su peculiaridad consiste en que a este Dama se le ha visto atravesar los aires, a veces de cueva a cueva, en forma de hoz de fuego en dirección a las simas de Aralar y Aizkorri u otras de fuera de Guipúzcoa. Al penetrar en ellas producen un estrépito como el trueno, según constatan en Segura. Se decía en Azcoitia que cuando la Dama de Anboto viene a juntarse con su marido Majue, cae algún pedrisco. Parece ser que el cura de Isasondo subía a conjurar a la Dama lo mismo que los frailes de Aránzazu en Oñate. Todas estas Damas no son sino representación de una única divinidad femenina llamada Mari que habita bajo tierra entre objetos de oro y un novillo rojo. En algunas leyendas suyas aparece un misterioso carnero. Su fuente de provisiones consiste en la negación, eza. En cierta ocasión fueron las compañeras de la Dama de Anboto a Elgóibar al cobro de una negación. Un pastor que tenía cien ovejas dijo que tenía noventa. Las lamiñas le arrebataron las diez restantes por haberlas negado. Sus salidas de la cueva suelen ser tenidas por presagios de tempestad o sequía. Cuando moraba en Anboto los de Oñate creían en copiosas lluvias, pero si vivía en Aloña, habría sequía. De ahí la vigilancia de los aldeanos de las idas y venidas de la Dama. Otros lugares de residencia suelen ser la sima de Murumendi, la cueva de Gurutzegorri (Ataun), Aizkorri y Aralar. En Oyarzun llegaron a ver cómo Puyako Maya se dirigía de las Peñas de Aya al mar.

There was other interesant article in the same encyclopedia, although it can be overwhelming:

Pasemos a otro autor, Resurrección María de Azkue (1864-1951), que sí aparece como uno de los primeros folkloristas que recogió leyendas en torno a la figura de Mari. El fin de Azkue giraba en torno al euskera, tratando de hallar formas y expresiones antiguas y puras; para ello, recogió una importante información de boca de euskoparlantes -desde finales del siglo XIX y hasta el año 1936 en que la Guerra Civil interrumpió su trabajo-, en numerosos caseríos de Euskal Herria y en distintos asilos.

En una de sus principales obras, Euskalerriaren Yakintza, en el Tomo I "Costumbres y supersticiones", aparecen relatos sobre las lamias, Mari Urraca (la dama de Anboto) y la Dama de Murumendi. En torno a "las lamias" hace alusión primero a la genealogía del nombre, señalando que los griegos, en su mitología, hablan de Lamia para referirse a la gentil o hermosa Reina de Frigia. Zeus (el Júpiter de los romanos) la hizo esposa suya, pero, su esposa anterior, Hera, por odio y rencor, mató a sus hijos. Desde entonces, Lamia ofrecía a la Muerte cuantos niños podía coger y arrebatar. Así, no es de extrañar, señala Resurrección María de Azkue, que los de Grecia muestren a las lamias con ojos de rabia y rabo de serpientes. Sin embargo, señala, entre nosotros, no eran tan malvadas ni tan feas, pero sí muy numerosas. De cintura para arriba mujeres, de cintura para abajo peces, "las lamias alumbraban por la boca", y hay muchos lugares que llevan su nombre en Euskal Herria.

En torno a la figura de Mari Urraca (la Dama de Anboto), Azkue recogió distintas leyendas. En Zeanuri (Bizkaia), dicen que suele estar siete años en Anboto y otros siete en una cueva de Oiz llamada Supelegor. Hay otros que creen que nació en Lazkao (Gipuzkoa); que eran un hermano y una hermana y que siendo jovencita, su madre la llevaba a una cueva en la que había una señora. Así, aunque el padre le decía: "Vete a la Iglesia", la madre le llevaba siempre a la cueva los días que habían de ir al templo. Su hermano se hizo sacerdote y cuando supo que su hermana no acostumbraba a ir a la Iglesia, la metió en un carro, la ató y la llevó al pórtico. Mientras él estaba en la sacristía buscando una estola, su hermana maligna se fue en el mismo carro al aire echando fuego y llamas. Desde entonces, ahí anda Mari Urraca (este último relato lo recogió en Otxandio (Bizkaia).

También en Zeanuri decían que suele estar "siete años en Anboto y siete en una cueva llamada Supelegor". Según creen en Olaeta (Bizkaia), Mari Urraca suele estar siete años en Anboto, y otros siete en Gorbea, lleva la rueca en la cintura con cerro de estopa y, según va, hila moviendo el huso. Lleva por detrás colgando un vestido de dos varas de largo. Cuando va de una parte a otra hay truenos y relámpagos aterradores. Al llegar a Gorbea produce un enorme disparo. Su primo, Juanito Chistu es sacerdote y gran cazador.

En Elorrieta (Bizkaia), le dijeron que mientras María Urraca está peinándose en su cueva, nadie puede acercarse a ella, ni siquiera pastor alguno. También, que la Dama de Anboto, por más que lo desea ardientemente, no puede hacer daño a quién no tiene pecado.

Sobre esta figura, por último, Azkue señala que existe en la Merindad de Durango una casa armera grande y hermosa, llamada en castellano Torre de Muncharaz. Según cuentan, Doña Urraca, infanta de Nabarra, casó a finales del siglo XII con el señor de la Torre. Al morir éste, su viuda, una noche, huyó, sin que supiera nadie a dónde fue. Muy pronto surgió en la mente del pueblo la idea de que doña Urraca fue a vivir a la cueva de Anboto7. Según Azkue, la noticia de este casamiento la expone Iturriza en su Historia de Vizcaya, libro II, página 213. Labayru en la suya (tomo I, página 168) la pone en duda8.

También sobre la Dama de Murumendi, recogió Resurrección María de Azkue distintas historias. En Ormaiztegi (Gipuzkoa), dijeron que tenía seis hermanas y que, por ser desobediente, quedó convertida en bruja. También que, en pasando por los aires esta Dama de Murumendi, el tiempo suele ser caluroso o, por lo menos, revuelto. En Beizama (Gipuzkoa), dijeron que cuando la Dama de Murumendi está metida en su cueva, si el día de Santa Cruz se hacen conjuros, aquel año las nubes no producen la piedra. También que la llevaba un día su marido a la Iglesia en un carro, ella, al salir de él, se subió por los aires diciendo: "Domingo, Domingo el de Murua, siete hijos para el mundo, ninguno para el cielo".

Como puede apreciarse, estos relatos recogidos por Azkue contienen muchas de las características de los recogidos por José Miguel de Barandiarán y también otros autores. Resurrección María de Azkue no hizo ninguna interpretación de los contenidos de estas leyendas, que aparecen en su versión originaria en euskera y traducidas al castellano. Juan Thalamas Labandibar (1975) ha realizado un compendio, ordenado, de gran parte de los datos recogidos por Azkue con relación a la cultura vasca, tanto en cuanto a representaciones mentales como a distintas prácticas.

Note that that Urraca was a historical personage that was from the royal family of Nabarre, syster of the king, just in the time of the Castilian introduction in Biscay, who seems to have ended mixing with the previous legend.Idiazabal 02:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This looks like an awful lot of copyrighted material: enough that I'm a little uncomfortable that you've stuck it all here on the talk page.

[much of the material I was referring to in that remark was later deleted from this page. Doesn't get it out of the history, though. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:01, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)]

It looks like this deserves an article of its own. Is there any chance that you could write an appropriate article in the Spanish-language Wikipedia, and then we could translate it? -- Jmabel | Talk 22:47, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

I wrote yet something about the Dame of Anboto, just what I knew because my father told me when I was a child, plus that about El Niño taken by a contrast I had some time ago with a Belgian friend while debating about Mari. I pasted it here for you to build a more complex idea of it. But there at the bottom I cut the two paragraphs more important about it, as I learned it in my chilhood. The Bizkaian legend is a little bit mixed with some medieval historical facts, but in Gipuzkoa basicaly it was the Dame who traveled as a comet each seven years from Anboto to some other mountain, and the rural people used to know or count the climate cicle depending in which mountain it was supposed she to stay.

Well, with the Spanish-language Wikipedia... sorry but we Basques are generaly subject to important attacks of xenofobia in the Spanish internet world. Certainly things have changed a little bit since Aznar was ousted, but you should know that from clowns to singers, cookers, cinema authors (as happened with Medem), etc. has been object of attacks, boicots, etc. and the internet normaly ends in opinion wars. So, I haven't had so much interest in the Spanish Wikidepia. But I'll see how it works.

Anyway, look the two paragraphs I've cut at the bottom. They are little and concise. And erase the previous text if you wishes.Idiazabal 01:14, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)