Talk:Bdóte/Draft

Prayer flags

Please consider removing the image containing the prayer flags. They are not your prayers nor are they the photographer's. It's culturally exploitative and inappropriate to post images of them. Please remove it from the Dakota War of 1862 article as well. Thanks :) Indigenous girl (talk) 00:53, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree. I think if the photographer had known the protocol around prayer and ceremony she would not have crossed that boundary to take this photo and post it online. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:20, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Redirect

Per discussion at the Indigenous wikiproject, this should probably be redirected to Fort Snelling, which already has a Bdote section. Anything that is WP:RS about language and culture that is not already covered on those pages can be merged to other pages, but I think it's all already covered elsewhere and this is a WP:POVFORK and WP:OR. Wikipedia is not the place for publishing personal projects. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:20, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

wait

@Oncamera hi, I was making some edits and was unable to publish because you significantly reorganized the page in that time. Can you please wait until I have finished? Thanks. Pingnova (talk) 01:11, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I cannot know when or if you're editing while I'm editing therefore I cannot comply with your request as stated.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 01:12, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I indicated on the INPA and other talk pages and on the memo at the top of this page that I am continously updating this draft, so asking to check which sections I may not be working on and doing those would be helpful in avoiding edit conflict.

I do want to work with you but especially since you deleted most of the page including citations we will have to write all of that and cite it all over again. Pingnova (talk) 01:30, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I do not need to ask your permission to edit, you do not WP:OWN the draft article. I stated I would remove unsourced information, which can be added later with a source. If you used a simpler citation method instead of putting notes everywhere or combining references under one ref tag, that would make it easier to merge your previous text.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 02:29, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Pingnova, I think it might help your interactions with other editors if you did more of your draft work in your userspace. Definitely if you want other editors to leave your work alone, you'll be left alone a lot more in your own userspace. (Probably no guarantee that no one will mess with it, but draft space is definitely more public). And maybe other editors will have fewer concerns about how your drafts evolve (unsourced information etc), which seems to be an issue for other editors right now. Just a thought! Larataguera (talk) 11:37, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Pingnova rather than ask oncamera not to edit, maybe you could take a look at their edits and see how they differ from what you might have included and not included. This is going to have to be an ongoing collaborative effort I think(would hope), given the significance to the Dakota people. Dakota people should have an input don't you think? I think that they should, rather than allowing them to chime in after-the-fact. I understand that Wikipedia does not subscribe to the nothing about us without us view. I don't expect anyone to follow that view just because I do (I don't edit about marginalized communities, cultures and ethnicities that I do not have experience with or an understanding of as an ally), though it would be really nice if there were some acceptance that others may have more understanding. Indigenous girl (talk) 21:23, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Orthographic conventions

@Oncamera excuse all of the pings today. Since you are also interested in this topic maybe we can collaborate on the specific aspect of Dakota language orthographic conventions. There are multiple forms of most words that vary in just spaces or stress marks. I have been prioritizing the conventions from the Westerman & White, Hyman, and Dakhóta Iápi Okhódakičhiye, which maintains a great dictionary. For example waterfall can be Ḣaḣa, Xaxa, or Haha depending on the source. It would probably help to use only one of these across the article, but even W&W, Hyman, and DIWW vary somewhat. Is there a way we should choose which one to use? I noticed on other pages that that "plain" form with usually one space and no stress marks is typically used, and then a version of the Dakota is mentioned in parentheses. In the case of a location managed by some authority like the parks service, I thought it made sense to use whatever conventions they use on official documents and signage. MPLS parks uses Mni Owe Sni, other sources use Mniowe Sni, etc. Pingnova (talk) 02:56, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia has already been using the orthography used by the Dakhóta Iápi Okhódakičhiye and UMN which is also based on the IPA, which is described at Help:IPA/Lakota (a Dakota version should be copied from that page and modified).

Per WP:Manual of Style/Pronunciation we should use the spelling that is on the IPA page which is consistent with the UMN orthography and seems to be used more often on Wikipedia. There is a Lakota Wikipedia project that is in the draft form that consistency uses it. So unless it's spelled differently in the direct quote source, such as Gwen's book, I believe we should say consistent on Wikipedia and use the UMN orthography.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 03:14, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes sense. Which UMN source should I reference? Pingnova (talk) 04:42, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Umn deleted their online dictionary. The DIO has a free dictionary. Same Dakota language professors at the UMN operate the DIO.[1]  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 05:04, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Image choice and placement

It seems a little odd to have the painting by Sergeant Edward K. Thomas, self-taught painter at Fort Snelling, as the lead image. There is another image (a photograph) further down in the draft of the confluence of the Minnesota and Mississippi Rivers at Bdote (Pike Island, Minnesota) which I think is much more appropriate for the lead.

I am not familiar with Sergeant Edward K. Thomas's work but this 1969 art review [2] describes his work in general as: "a curious blend of patriotism, idealism and nostalgic romanticism." Which pretty much sums up my thoughts about it. However the Minneapolis Institute of Art (who owns the painting) describes it as "a true record of the landscape on that day around 1850".[3] Maybe the painting would work better in a section on "Representations" or a "Gallery" section, or maybe not at all? Thoughts? Netherzone (talk) 13:52, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree about the image being replaced. A photograph would be "neutral" and avoid some of the meanings seen in art. And the artwork shows Fort Snelling and Wita Tanka (Pike Island), it doesn't show the actual point of the Bdote where the two rivers meet like the photograph (I can go and take more photos next week if needed since I live nearby the area). There could possibly be a representation section where it could be moved if there's more than this to add to it.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 16:33, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I moved the photographic image up to the lead, and moved the painting down to the bottom of the draft for now. Netherzone (talk) 20:01, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I like the photo of the waters and agree about the image issues. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:17, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Sources

The Minnesota Archeologist ran an issue focused on the area around Fort Snelling that included a lot of archeological information on Bdóte. The issue isn't accessible online but this post has some of the info for future sourcing ideas. David Mather's article series is a particularly good roundup of the most recent research, part one "The Historical Ecology of Bdote and Fort Snelling: Part 1 – Context and Documentary Sources" is in vol 79. Pingnova (talk) 20:49, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

If it's info about Fort Snelling and soldier use of the area, that probably belongs that article about the fort. I didn't see anything on the url that mentioned Dakota people. This article has to stay focused on the cultural meaning/use etc of Bdote if you don't want it merged later into another article.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 21:20, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

It is about about Bdóte and Fort Snelling, as the article title I mentioned says. Pingnova (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Bdóte or Bdote

I think Bdote is the more common spelling and should probably be used as the article title.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 10:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)