Talk:Ben Het Camp

22 February 2022

User:LoneRidr if you have something to say about this page, don't email me, say it here. The reason why the 299th Engineer Battalion isn't listed among the camp occupants is because they were not part of the camp garrison, they came, performed some work and then moved on somewhere else. Mztourist (talk) 04:32, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

To MZTourist

You beliefs aren’t unfounded. Who made you the expert on actions at Bin Het were you there? I have the presidential order ant the medal citation 2600:1700:DFE0:A310:0:0:0:2F (talk) 15:33, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Read WP:RS, unless this "presidential order" is available for review it is not a reliable source. In any event this is trivial detail about a minor action leading to the award of a 5th ranking medal. Why do you believe that its important that this should be included? Are you Ralph R Trout, JR or a relative of his? Mztourist (talk) 02:55, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

12 June 2022

User:LoneRidr once again, if you have something to say about this page, don't email me, say it here. Mztourist (talk) 07:44, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

My apologies. I clicked a link on the left side of Wiki page. I didn't realize it was an external link - should be marked as such, Better yet, remove the external link.

"The 5th Special Forces Group Detachment A-244[1] first established a base at Ben Het, then a hill tribe village, in the early 1960s to monitor North Vietnamese infiltration along the Ho Chi Minh Trail."

Reference 1 Supporting that Stanton, Shelby (2003). Vietnam Order of Battle. Stackpole Books. p. 246. ISBN 9780811700719.

The reference shows A-244 at Dak To in 1965 and 1966. Te same reference shows them establishing a base camp at Ben Het in May, 1968. I have several books for citation that I can cite that show A-244 locations backing up what I just said.

I have after-action reports that show the base camp was created in 1967 by C company, 299 engineers.

I have an after-action report, for citation, that shows the order to upgrade the runway to C-130 class was rescinded by MACV in Jan, 1968.

I have an after-action report, for citation, showing when the 173rd airborne battalions and the artillery arrived in Nov 1967.

The question is, can this neophyte make these major changes without getting into trouble as long as I use proper, verifiable citations?

How do I get to this communication page without clicking reply?

LoneRidr (talk) 14:43, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Ben Het Base Camp was built by C company 299th engineer battalion

Proof C Co. 299th built Ben Het The genesis of Ben Het base Camp, also known as Firebase 12. From AD837835 Headquarters, 937th Engineer Group (Combat) Operational Report - Lessons Learned (RCS CSFOR-65) for Quarterly Period Ending 31 October 1967

On 26 - 27 August, B/299 and D/299 realigned with D/299 moving to Dak To Airfield and B/299 moving to Kontum. On 29 August, in preparation for the construction of an airfield west of Dak To, Co C, 299th Engr Bn (C) and the 15 Engr Co (LE) (-) moved from Plelku to Old Dak To Airfield. These two units supported D/299 at Dak To and on Route 512.

From the After Action Report AD0390643 BATTLE FOR DAK TO HQ, 4TH INFANTRY DIVISION, 25 OCT-1 DEC 1967: 9. (C) Concept of Operation: In the latter part of October as the indications of strong enemy interest in the DAK TO area increased the decision was made to replace the mechanized infantry battalion which at the time had the mission of securing the DAK TO airfield, the adjacent FSA and engineer work parties that were upgrading route 512 from TAN CANH to the proposed-site of the BEN BET CIDG camp with the 3d Battalion 12th Infantry. As enemy activity increased the 1st Brigade with two battalions moved from western PLEIKU into DAK TO while the mechanized battalion and an armored cavalry squadron, because of their mobility, assumed the 1st Brigade's mission of screening the border area in western PLEIKU Province.

Ben Het base camp was built by Company C, 299th Engineer Battalion From 22 Oct 1967 to 03 Feb 1968. From the After Action Report AD0390643 BATTLE FOR DAK TO HQ, 4TH INFANTRY DIVISION, 25 OCT-1 DEC 1967: Section e. Engineer Support. (d) Company C had moved to BEN HET on 22 October (YB873257) with the mission of constructing a C-7A airfield with the provision that it could be expanded rapidly to handle C-130's. The company was also tasked to clear the site for the proposed BEN HET CIDG camp. The company also provided direct support to the elements of the 1st Brigade, 4th Infantry Division and to elements of the 173d Airborne Brigade located at BEN HET.

From the After Action Report AD0392589 ORLL HQ I FIELD FORCE VIETNAM Period Ending 30 Apr 1968 (c) Ben Het (YB865251). The 299th Engr-Bn (C) completed construction of this Type II C-7A airfield on 31 Jan 68. Engineer equipment assistance is currently, being furnished for bunker and camp construction.

From http://www.299thcombatengineers.com/History05Bunting.htm Company C returned from Ben Het to the Pleiku base camp on 3 Feb 1968 and undertook projects in that area. LoneRidr (talk) 07:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Already covered on the page, what's your point? Mztourist (talk) 09:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The point is that your page states that A-244 Special Forces Group was there in the early 60s which is total BS. The documentation I furnished dated 1967 says "proposed" camp. There was no camp for A-244 to go to before 1967. Also, the year is wrong - it was started and built in 1967. IE: They weren't at a nonexistent base camp. Ther are at least 4 websites that I have encountered that have quoted your erroneous material. I will enter proof in another document that A-244 wasn't there shortly. Thank you. LoneRidr (talk) 00:45, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Further proof that Ben Het didn't exist before October 1967:

AD387626 HQ 4TH INFANTRY DIVISION, Combat Operation GREELEY, 17 Jun-11 Oct 16 December 1967

(11) After the three-day engagement west of DAK SEANG in early August there was very little contact in the Operation GREELEY area of operations. From 5-13 September ARVN and US units continued to conduct search and destroy operations west of DAK TO and centered around the site of a proposed special forces camp at BEN HET, 15 miles west of DAK TO on Route 512. LoneRidr (talk) 12:05, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

A-244 entry to this document is bogus

Proof that A-244 CIDG Special Forces was not at Ben Het until May 1968 I bought a copy of Vietnam Order of Battle by Shelby Stanton published at an earlier date by Galahad Books in 1987, ISBN 0-671-08159-4. I bought a second copy that is referenced in Wikipedia, Vietnam Order of Battle by Shelby Stanton published by Stackpole books, ISBN 978-0-8117-0071-9. Both books start a table for II Corps on page 246. However, the listing for A-244 in the II Corps table is on page 247 which shows A-244 was at Dak To in 1966. On page 248, both books, show A-244 as being at Dak To in 1965 and Ben Het in May 1968. There is no other references for A-244 at an earlier date. From CMH_Pub_90-23-1 US Army Special Forces 1961-1971 Appendix C, II Corps Tactical Zone (Military Region 2), A-244 was at Dak Pek, Kontum province in 1962. A-244 was at New Dak To, Kontum province, 1965. A-244 was at Ben Het, Kontum province, in May 1968. Internet proof follows. The Ben Het Camp original page was created by Mztourist on 16 November 2014. He states that the 5th Special Forces Group Detachment A-244[1 ] first established a base at Ben Het in 1962. On 17 November 2014, Mztourist amended the page by stating that the 5th Special Forces Group Detachment A-244[1 ] first established a base at Ben Het in the early 1960s (pretty vague). His reference for both of these entries is “Vietnam Order of Battle” by Stanton, Shelby, 2003. This book is available on line at the National Archives search page; https://archive.org/search. An account is required to read the book. Type “Vietnam Order of Battle” in the search bar and click “Go” button. Double-click book description icon. Click “Borrow” button (must do this to read the book). Click magnifying glass on left side of window. Type “A-244” quotes required. Hit enter key. You will see 2 entries, page 247 showing A-244 was at Dak To (actually Dak To New) in August 1965, page 248 showing that A-244 was at Ben Het in May 1968. IE; A-244 did not establish a camp at Ben Het in the early 1960s. The reference is bogus. The verbiage about A-244 being there before 1968 should be removed – it is false. The book, CMH Pub 90-23 U.S. Army Special Forces, 1961-1971, shows where A-244, and all CIDG units, was located. Appendix C lists the units and locations. You can’t do a search to find the units because the appendix runs up & down, not left to right. The entries for the A-244 locations follow;

https://archive.org/details/CMHPub90-23/page/n197/mode/1up?q=%22A-244%22 Dak Pek April 1962 Page 185 Dak To (New) 26 May 1965 Page 185

https://archive.org/details/CMHPub90-23/page/n196/mode/1up?q=%22A-244%22 Ben Het May 1968 Page 184

As stated elsewhere in this Talk page, the camp was established in 1967 by Company C, 299th Combat Engineers, not 1966.

From Don 'SGT Snuffy' Smith's Firebases, LZ's & Predominant Terrain Features, Vietnam Copyright@ 2007-2017 by Donald E. Smith

   A-244 SF Camp - Dak To (New). Opened Aug 1965 - Converted to RF 15 May 1968.
   A-244 SF Camp - Dak To. Opened Aug 1965.
   A-244 SF Camp - Dak To (Old). Opened Feb 1963.
   A-244 SF Camp - Ben Het. Opened May 1968 - Converted to ARVN Ranger 31 Dec 1970.

I could find no references connecting A-244 with Ben Het before May, 1968. LoneRidr (talk) 00:48, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Then you need to buy Kelley's book. Mztourist (talk) 04:23, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

It just so happens I have a copy. of Kelley's book. The reference is used for location not units present. The reference page is 5-49, not 49. However, it shows the location of the Ben Het base camp. It lists A-244 as being there in 1968, no sooner. I've done due diligence to make sure I get it right, unlike Wikipedia in their consideration of Ben Het. These aren't the only discrepancies I've pointed out in the past. So what's your point? LoneRidr (talk) 06:00, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

C130 runway

The runway upgrade to C130 capacity at Ben Het never happened. From Ref 7 Engineers at War Page 327 "At Dak To 2, Company D supported combat units, worked on its section of Route 512 to Ben Het, and maintained the C–130 airfield.56" The 299th MAINTAINED the C-130 airfield at Dak To 2. From AD0389941 OPERATIONAL REPORT – LESSONS LEARNED QUARTERLY PERIOD ENDING 31 JANUARY 1968, Page 46 The requirement to construct the airfield to a C-130 capacity was rescinded by MACV. LoneRidr (talk) 23:19, 7 September 2024 (UTC)