Talk:Canigou

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Location[edit]

Arratsaldeon,

Please have a look at the list of the tallest mountains in the UK.

Ben Nevis
Snowdon
Scafell Pike
Helvellyn
Cross Fell
Kinder Scout
Boulsworth Hill
Hail Storm Hill
Winter Hill
Billinge Hill

Oddly enough, English-language Wikipedia does not portray these landmarks as UK mountains but as "Welsh", "Scottish" or "English" ones. In some entries, "Great Britain" does appear but only as an island (anyway "Great Britain" is a concept of little political significance).

Following the correction some Catalan mountains' infoboxes have gone through, all these peak should be listed as follows:

Location: United Kingdom

... but none is.

The same principle we admit to UK mountains should apply elsewhere, and therefore "Location: Catalonia" should be valid in spite of neither part of Catalonia (North and South) being a soveregin State.

Hope you understand that a principle of coherence is paramount in this issue.

Any comments warmly welcome.

Andreas Balart (talk) 15:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that you are not comparing like with like, and in addition are again ignoring the basic principles of naming on Wikipedia, which simply relies on finding out what things are normally called in reliable English-language sources and following them.
  • England, Scotland and Wales are all constituent countries of a larger country, the United Kingdom. It is entirely fine to simply site Ben Nevis in Scotland (although for completeness, in my view it should say "Scotland, the UK"). That would be the case whether the infobox field was for "Country" or for the wider "Location".
  • For things in Spain, "Catalonia, Spain" would be fine, although it would be incorrect to do this if the infobox field was for "Country", since Catalonia is not officially designated as a country, and is rarely referred to as such in authoritative English sources. The word Catalonia in English sources usually refers solely to the Spanish autonomous region.
  • For things in Catalan regions the other side of the border, it would be odd to say "Northern Catalonia, France", since Northern Catalonia is not the usual way that the region is referred to. Again, if the infobox field was for "Country", it would be doubly wrong.
It matters little whether any of this is unfair, or "wrong" in some way or by some argument, it just is. --Nickhh (talk) 17:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Since there's also a discussion here, I'll repeat what I wrote on Andreas' talk page: IMO the comparison with the UK, Scotland etc. doesn't fit, since there isn't another Scotland somewhere. I think the comparison with Northern Ireland is a bit more appropriate, even though regions like Languedoc-Roussillon or Pyrénées-Orientales don't enjoy the same degree of autonomy as Northern Ireland or (Spanish) Catalonia. In the infobox for Slieve Donard, the highest hill in Northern Ireland, its location is gives as County Down, Northern Ireland. Most English speakers think of Catalonia as the autonomous region around Barcelona, stating that Canigou is in Catalonia would be confusing. Markussep Talk 18:05, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi Nick
The zeal you should editing things abroad, should be shown at home, don't you think? As a Londoner Wikipedian, the minute after you edit Canigó's location, you should be rushing into editing Ben Nevis. You don't, which shows byass. Or—worse—cowardice.
"England, Scotland and Wales are all constituent countries of a larger country, the United Kingdom."
Hmmmm. You don't list Northern Ireland. And that's serious.Why? Because that would force you to admit that Northern Ireland is depicted as a country is quite a few of Wikipedia's articles. Articles you have quite surely seen, read, or even edited/purged.
You seem to have trouble with borderline cases, and that's the reason why you literally sweep the dirt (Northern Ireland) under the carpet. Otherwise it would not fit into your nice constituent countries of a larger country scheme.
Guys, I suggest something. Let's locate UK mountains in the UK
Nick, you take...
Ben Nevis
Snowdon
Scafell Pike
Mark, yours are...
Helvellyn
Cross Fell
Kinder Scout
Boulsworth Hill
I'll do...
Hail Storm Hill
Winter Hill
Billinge Hill
We'll be done in 15 minutes, don't you think?
Doooon't you worry. I was just joking. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andreas Balart (talkcontribs) 18:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I didn't list Northern Ireland because you didn't mention it - I was responding to your point about "Welsh", "Scottish" and "English" mountains. You have still failed to engage with the substantive underlying point being made that WP should follow what things are called, not what individual editors might like them to be called. Ben Nevis for example is commonly called a mountain in Scotland by reliable English-language sources, probably as (if not more) often than it is called a "British" mountain, although both would be accurate. By contrast, Canigou is not normally called "Canigo" and placed in "Northern Catalonia". I also suggest that you read WP:NPA, as well as the other policies and rules people keep pointing you to. For info, there's no rule that says people should only edit topics about their own countries, or that if they correct one error, they have to correct every (purported) equivalent error on every other page. People are being pretty patient with what is increasingly looking like disruptive editing. I wasn't making it up when I suggested that your account will likely end up blocked if you carry on with this. As I say, it's your choice. --Nickhh (talk) 19:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Hey copper, take a rest. You're too hasty in reaching for your guns.

The problem is that Infobox Mountain is the common template for all of mountains' infoboxes—no matter whether Catalan, Scottish... or, say, Northern Irish. A common template calls, therefore, for a common set of rules. Or that is what common sense dictates me.

But according to you interpretation of the rules, some mountains are arranged according to rule (a) and some others according to rule (b). Difficult to understand but for a biassed underlying ideology. Or wanting to have it both ways.

Going back to Ben Nevis. What do we do? Do we UK-ize it or leave it as it is? UK-izing Slieve Donard would be something, don't you think... I can imagine the battering.

Andreas Balart (talk) 19:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I have no more access to firearms than you do. It wasn't meant to be a threat, just an observation about how these things usually pan out. Personally I tend to avoid "reporting" other editors. But as I say, you have a choice, like everyone else here - you can focus on making constructive contributions in collaboration with other editors here, or you can continue on a single-minded mission to mould content here to the way you see and classify the world, while making "experimental" edits to other articles to prove a point. As for the location point, you're still avoiding the basic question - how do we identify or describe where something is, using the common names for that location? There's no double standards at work here. I have explained why stating Ben Nevis is "in Scotland" is fine (as it would equally be to say it is "in the UK", additionally or alternatively). It is, as commonly described. You haven't really explained what the problem is there, or responded seriously to any of the points being made to you. By contrast, I have explained the problem with talking about "Canigo" being a mountain "in northern Catalonia", because that is not the spelling of the mountain, or the name of the wider area, that are usually found in English-language sources. This is really quite a simple point, which I don't think you've quite grasped. The article itself - correctly - makes clear that Canigou is found in the Catalan regions of France, and has plenty of content discussing that. No one's complaining about that. Anyway, I'm done talking on this.--Nickhh (talk) 20:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Canigou not in Spain[edit]

Canigou is not in Spain, and therefore this entry cannot belong to WikiProject Spain. It can legitimately belong to the Catalan and French Wikiprojects.

Some might mention historical reasons, but this is a bit of a stretch of imagination.

Brgds

Andreas Balart (talk) 15:22, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Since 13 July 2012 the french official name is "Canigó"[edit]

French governement has changed the official name and now is using the catalan language name.
http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/Le-massif-du-Canigo-devient-Grand.html
http://www.vilaweb.cat/media/continguts/000/048/068/thumbnails/thumb_474__4.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.79.57.91 (talk) 19:20, 15 July 2012 (UTC)