Talk:Chamber pop

Chamber pop has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
November 2, 2016	Good article nominee	Listed
December 17, 2016	Good article reassessment	Kept

Current status: Good article

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On a matter of proposed deletion

Uhh... what's an Association of Chamber Pop? Not to overestimate google test, but for the genre name that widely used it should show up at least a few links to prove its existence (not to mention notability).

Since both the current content and the nomination seem thorougly flawed, I'm reverting to the redirect it once was. Hoping someday this topic gets a good article it deserves. Squeal 07:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Chamber pop/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cartoon network freak (talk · contribs) 22:55, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

(or ork-pop) → (also referred to as ork-pop)
but without irony or kitsch → without containing irony or kitsch

Definition and roots

1966 album → 1966 studio album
summarizes: "think → summarizes; "think
(no relation) → this is overfluous and can be thus be removed

He may be confused with Carl Wilson, who is Brian's brother and Beach Boy bandmate.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 09:37, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

that was labelled chamber pop → that approached chamber pop

I think this would be distorting the source, which is talking about the term "chamber pop", not the style.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 09:37, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

explained: "When → explained; "When
mystery ... → mystery [...]
"ork-pop" (says Chris Holmes of the band Yum-Yum) → "ork-pop", according to Chris Holmes of band Yum-Yum (unlink redlink)

I believe an article could be made about the group (WP:REDYES).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 09:37, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

music file > lead vocal → lead vocals

Emergence and popularity

O'Hagan commented: → O'Hagan commented;
there. ... → there. [...]
in their arrangements → who is 'they'?
wrote: "Bored → wrote; "Bored
popsmiths ... [are on] → popsmiths [...] [are on]
pop masterpiece. ... → pop masterpiece. [...]
these acts ... → these acts [...]
Most ork-pop musicians → The majority of the ork-pop musicians
of the music retailer → "the" is overfluous
Witch Hazel → redlink; fix

As above.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 09:37, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

as the duo → for duo
debut album: "in → debut album; "in
answered: "I → answered; "I
change. ... I → change. [...] I

References

No dead links. Good job!

Outcome

I've put this On hold for 7 days in order to allow edits on this article. Good job! Best regards, Cartoon network freak (talk) 23:24, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Done!--Ilovetopaint (talk) 09:37, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Ilovetopaint: Gladly passing! Congrats, Cartoon network freak (talk) 12:07, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Individual reassessment

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Chamber pop/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article contains significant close paraphrasing/copyvio of multiple sources, particularly AllMusic. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried, again, to rephrase the article contents. Remember that sticking to the sources and presenting the facts in standard sequences is not copyvio.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 23:14, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But mirroring their expression may be. What is in the article is absolutely close paraphrasing. Compare for example "Drawing heavily from the lush, orchestrated work of performers including Brian Wilson, Burt Bacharach, and Lee Hazlewood... chamber pop placed a renewed emphasis on melody and production, as artists layered their baroque, ornate songs with richly textured orchestral strings and horns, all the while virtually denying the very existence of grunge, electronica" and "Influenced by the lush orchestrations of Burt Bacharach, Brian Wilson, and Lee Hazlewood, artists focused a renewed effort on melody and production, layering their songs with instruments like strings and horns while rejecting the development of simultaneous musical movements like grunge and electronica". Nikkimaria (talk) 02:27, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I broke up the sentence. Are there any other unacceptable spots?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 00:22, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but we might need to take a step back: your change didn't actually eliminate the problem. I'd suggest reading through this guidance before continuing. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:06, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously? I'm at a loss. There are only so many ways to configure simple statements of fact like "[music] was influenced by/drew on/based on [artist]", "the orchestrations of [artist] were lush/rich/layered". I've tried, yet again, to fix the alleged problem. If it's still an issue, I'm going to need someone to show me how this can possibly be resolved.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 05:55, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously. Unique turns of phrase like "lo-fi aesthetic" can be quoted if there's no good way to rephrase, but means of expressing and combining facts should otherwise be original. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:16, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LIMITED: "Close paraphrasing is also permitted when there are only a limited number of ways to say the same thing. This may be the case when there is no reasonable way to avoid using technical terms, and may also be the case with simple statements of fact." We don't need to quote "lo-fi aesthetic" if we're forced to write something ridiculous like "artistic principle or taste which had attuned itself with a type of sound quality inferior to the majority of professionally recorded audio".

The lead already looks different enough from the AllMusic bio. There's no way to make it any more unique unless we remove half of its simple facts. Inspired by Burt Bacharach and lounge revival. Emphasizes melody and production. Avoids concurrent music movements.-Ilovetopaint (talk) 05:14, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See the last paragraph of WP:LIMITED. The paraphrasing here is definitely far better than it was, but "Inspired in part by the lounge-music revival but with a complete absence of irony or kitsch" (article: "inspired partly by the 1990s lounge music revival, but without the irony or kitsch") is clearly more creative than "He was born in 1949". Nikkimaria (talk) 19:11, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very tedious process. Are there any other examples left in the article?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 20:00, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've rephrased the lead as an example. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:11, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Right so... there are no more issues...?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 23:04, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Getting there, but I'd prefer to see some further revisions to the article body. You mentioned above that you'd like to see an example of how this might be done - does the lead rewrite suffice? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:01, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, all you did was remove simple facts (focused on melody and production / uses elaborate orchestra and voices / more complex than rock songs) and modify "concurrent music movements" to "contemporary genres". If what you're suggesting is to delete half the article, then I think other editors should weigh in and see whether this is really an issue.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 06:51, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That is not what I'm suggesting. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:26, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

lacks a theoretical basis for its claims about sophisticated arrangements & so on.

'typically more complex', 'intricate', 'intimate, precisely arranged'...

hyperbole without reinforcement from actual examples. the article doesn't even mention (beyond a quote about 'bluesy clamor') breaking the 'three chords & the truth' paradigm of most rock music & a lot of pop. neither does it contrast this supposedly sophisticated genre with other departures from standard pop forms, e.g. prog-rock, or the symphonic rock of mike oldfield, the enid & others.

it's a reasonable first draft at the moment, with some of the right names & some of the right quotes, but it lacks analytical rigor; where are all the musicologists on wp?

duncanrmi (talk) 16:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]