Talk:Christchurch/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Coverage of wildlife

I have searched for sources about wildlife in Christchurch. Orana Park and Willowbank, and the Isaac Conservation Park / Ōtukaikino walkway could be mentioned as man-made wildlife parks or reserves, and wading birds are common in the estuary. However, apart from those, sources are somewhat limited. The city is a gateway for wildlife tourism to Akaroa and Kaikōura etc, but it is not clear that the main urban area of Christchurch is really notable for its wildlife. A possible exception could be the nesting of rare and endangered Black-billed gulls over three seasons in the ruins of an earthquake-damaged building. Ducks, geese, pigeons and other introduced birds don't seem worth much mention. Overall, I don't think wildlife warrants much coverage in the main Christchurch article, and some existing mentions could be trimmed. My view is that rare birds seen in a reserve or the estuary could be covered in articles about those places, and not in the main article. Here are some sources about rare birds in Christchurch, just in case others think it is worth including in the main Christchurch article: 2015 - [1], 2015 - [2], 2016 - [3], 2021 - [4], and [5], 2022- [6], 2023 - [7], 2023 - [8]. I will wait for feedback before trimming any existing content._Marshelec (talk) 09:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 10:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Whales? An unfortunate 30-ton sperm whale recently beached at South Brighton. Other less gargantuan species are not uncommon along the coastline. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 10:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

There is an effort to bring kororā back to the area with a protected colony reserve out at Godley Head. David Palmer aka cloventt (talk) 19:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

That would be a good addition to Godley Head. Similarly, some further content about Hector's dolphins could be added to Lyttelton Harbour. I don't think either of these warrant mention in the main article._Marshelec (talk) 19:39, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, there was some thinking at Christchurch City Council to make a corridor for birds that would connect Riccarton Bush with the Port Hills. Hence I designed Wainui Street (Riccarton Road to Peverell Street) with lots of room for planting native trees; that was some 20 years ago. They never carried on with that theme; south of Peverell Street, the road is as wide and treeless as ever. Not sure whether the council published anything about this (usually they do and their archive website goes back that far), but given that it didn't go anywhere, it's probably not worth bothering with. I thought the idea was quite neat, though. Schwede66 20:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Lede

I've rewritten two paragraphs in the lede and there is still somewhat long way to go until it looks "complete". Does anyone have any suggestions on anything else on what should be mentioned? I mainly focused on the history part, but we still need to summarize other immportant parts of the article. (see: WP:LEAD). I will be a lot more active in May and will be able to help improving and adding content. Your contributions are appreciated. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 05:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The progress on the lead is looking really good imo. It covers the most important stuff and is about the right size I think.

Could we use the article structure as a guide? Maybe one or two sentences from each section, pulling key notable facts for each subject? Looks like we have some of that already but we risk making it too long. We could probably trim a few sentences from the history if we need to. David Palmer aka cloventt (talk) 10:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, your welcome to help improve the content in the lede and elsewhere and get it to somewhere until it looks complete. I still hope to expand other parts of this article, adding refs and eventually getting this article up to GA status, hopefully by the end of this year. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 10:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

What is "modern history"?

We have a "modern history" section, but some of its contents are older history than what's in the "provincial growth" section, which makes it un-chronological. Is there a specific year period for "modern"? Is this a period described as "modern" by historians or have we just named it "modern"? If there is no theme in the section I think that it might be best to name it "20th century" or something along those lines, but if memory serves, I do think we've had the discussion of changing the name away from "20th century". 📊Panamitsu (talk) 00:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

We just named it "modern" I think. The period covered there is roughly from the end of WW1 onwards. If you have a better suggestion for the name please change it, I couldn't think of one.

Regarding the chronology, a strict chronology can be just a list of disconnected events, which is a bit dry to read. The original version of the "20th century" section was like that. A good historical narrative connects related events through time to tell a story, which is what I tried to do with the bits I wrote. I agree though, the crossing point from "European settlement" to "Modern history" is clunky at the moment.

FYI all of this might be moot because it seems we have consensus to trim the history in this article down quite a lot and spin it off to a dedicated History of Christchurch, New Zealand article. David Palmer aka cloventt (talk) 01:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I think modern history means anything after the mediaeval period. In the NZ context those terms don't fit well. People often use modern history to mean anything in living memory or worst, what was on yesterday's 6.00 news. I try to describe anything very recent as current affairs (eg 6 months or so because it is usually still happening or hasn't been put in context in people's minds. I'd call anything back 20-30 tears as contemporary history, avoiding the term modern. IMO, as I said earlier, I think we should not put anything in the history section after around 2015 or at a stretch 2019 to include the mosque shootings which have now sort of settled into the memory (there is nothing ongoing like court cases or gun legislation) Anything else could be in a separate section called current affairs. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 10:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Amalgamations

One aspect that isn't covered yet, at least not in a comprehensive way, is the history of amalgamations that has resulted in what we now understand to be Christchurch. If I know this right, Richmond was the first area to be amalgamated with Christchurch (it was split off in 1890 from the Avon Road District). The last amalgamation was Banks Peninsula in 2006. The former isn't mentioned yet, and the latter is listed in the section on "Local government". Obviously, there was heaps in between those two amalgamations (with the biggest chunk in 1903).

Question is – where should this topic be covered? Under "History", "Geography", "Local government", or a new chapter? Meanwhile, I'll start a table of amalgamations in my sandbox. Schwede66 06:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no "right answer", but my inclination is to describe the history of amalgamations under the Local government heading. The topic is of interest, but I note that the Christchurch article is already quite long, so if there is content for a lengthy new section on this topic, it is worth considering whether a separate article would be the best approach.Marshelec (talk) 07:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The list of amalgamations in my sandbox may be complete now. Gosh, there was a lot going on over the years. There would certainly be enough for a standalone article. Schwede66 10:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I've moved my sandbox into draft space: Draft:Amalgamations with Christchurch City. I've had a look for other "amalgamation" articles but there isn't really anything decent based on this category. That said, I noticed that we don't have an article covering Christchurch as a territorial local authority. Then again, the relevant template informs me that we don't have district articles for any of our cities, unlike for the true districts (i.e. those that aren't cities). I guess we can discuss whether we want the scope to be on amalgamations or on the district. Either way, it wouldn't be much different, I suppose. Schwede66 01:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Looking at other city articles with a dedicated history article, for example History of Manchester, some have a "Civic history" or "Governance" section. We could possibly merge your article into the new Draft:History of Christchurch, New Zealand article if that makes sense. Either way I'd like to include some of the info from the amalgamations article into the main history article, even if it is just a quick summary and a link to the amalgamations article. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 07:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd class it as "local government" as the city expanded largely independently of amalgamations, which in many cases happened a considerable time later.

I think the largest amalgamation was actually in 1989. Christchurch was a bit of an oddity as far as urban expansion went - instead of a large flock of "mistletoe boroughs" hanging on to it (as Dunedin and Invercargill had - a large proportion of which were absorbed around the time of the First World War), the urban area expanded into a circle of tiny counties which surrounded the city and survived until the abolition of counties - including suburbs as close to the city as Fendalton. Some parts of those counties did amalgamate with the city, but erratically and inconsistently - by 1989, Heathcote County had been so nibbled-at by the city that it was only a tiny area between Cashmere, Ferrymead and the summit road, smaller than the city ifself. Daveosaurus (talk) 10:37, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

A collaborative Wikiproject for Christchurch-related articles ?

I have posted a notice on the WikiProject New Zealand noticeboard seeking feedback about establishing a collaborative project for improving Christchurch-related articles. Please review and provide feedback at this link: Wikipedia:New_Zealand_Wikipedians'_notice_board#A_collaborative_Wikiproject_for_Christchurch-related_articles_?_Marshelec (talk) 22:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

History of Christchurch - splitting content out into a new article

The main article is currently at 9653 words of readable prose, and is at the point where some reduction or splitting of content is warranted, based on WP:SIZE. Looking at the article as it stands, I think the History section is in need of significant improvement, and splitting the content out as a new article and rewriting a shorter version as a summary could be one way of achieving improvements and also keeping the size of the main article under control. (Note: I am certain that there are further topics that are worth adding to the main article, so we need to look for opportunities to trim, to keep the size to a reasonable limit). There is a lot of content in the history section that in my view is too detailed for the main article. I have looked at other articles about major cities to see some examples of how history has been treated. There is usually a link to a more detailed separate article about the history of the city, and in many cases a separate timeline article. See: Manchester, Boston, Winnipeg, (all three are Featured Articles), Bangalore (GA rated), Auckland and Melbourne. We already have History of Canterbury, and this contains some recent history of Christchurch. My suggestion is to remove most Christchurch-specific content from that article and merge it into a new article specifically about the history of Christchurch, taking all the detailed content from the existing Christchurch article. It would then be necessary to write a summary for the main article. Feedback please. _Marshelec (talk) 07:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Those are some good examples, and we can use them as guidance in a way... (see: Lincoln, Nebraska (GA), the history section is massive and I would assume christchurch's does not need to be as big as theirs. But we need to summarize the immportant parts, likewise with the lede (which still needs improvement). I think we already did a relatively good job with the history, but needs trimming of excessive detail. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 07:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There is a risk in copying what other articles do too closely. Each city is different, sometimes significantly so. This will require different subsections and different emphasis depending on the city. NZ cities will all have followed reasonably similar historical patterns so their articles will have a certain uniformity. However, articles on the history of Christchurch and the history of Petra should be quite different. Even less extreme examples, such as the histories of most European cities, will differ from colonial cities in Australasia. I think this means some thought is given on how best to structure the history of Christchurch rather than simply taking a template structure from somewhere else and building on that. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Then don't. We'll still include the significant Māori and European history alike. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 08:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Don't what? You have brought up another problem. If you cannot see the difference between 'the history of Christchurch' and the history of Maori and the history of Europeans who live in Christchurch then there is a grave risk that the resultant article will not be as good as it should be. If history isn't your area of expertise then please say so. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It depends on what you define as "expertise", I am well informed about the history of Christchurch. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 10:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Yup, agreed, too long. A dedicated History of Christchurch article is a good idea.

I think I’m finished with my wee project to expand that section and give it a better narrative flow, so we’re probably at a good point to pull that out to its own article. A dedicated article is actually a great solution - I was struggling to avoid adding all that excessive detail that made it in there. There is so much to cover and so much more I could add, a dedicated article is a good place to dump all that.

Once we have a dedicated article for the subject we can probably boil that section of this article down to just “bookends”: Māori and European settlement, then major recent events. That is the best way to keep the section short imo. Readers are likely to be most interested in how things started and how they’re going now. Everything else they can go to the dedicated article. David Palmer aka cloventt (talk) 10:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with Cloventt. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 10:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

With thanks to User:Gadfium, there is now a helpful Section sizes template at the head of this talk page, and also in the articles Auckland, and Wellington. At present, the History section of the Christchurch article contains 36.3% of the total content. In comparison, the history section of Auckland contains 10.4% of the total of that article, and the history section of Wellington contains 7%. If a new separate article on the History of Christchurch is created, I suggest aiming for the content of the summary history section in this article to be between a quarter and one third of the present. This would be in the range 20 to 28 kbytes._Marshelec (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the numbers there are wikitext bytes, rather than word count. So those numbers would include the inline citations. That section is much more heavily sourced than other parts of the article which would inflate the byte count.

I've been trying to find a decent tool for analysing word count per-section and per-paragraph, and I haven't found anything I can get to work. I'm starting to think I should write something to do it, or maybe volunteer to expand the functionality of the built-in prosesize mediawiki plugin. David Palmer aka cloventt (talk) 22:08, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Current stats in words are:

1. top: 569
2. Toponymy: 230
3. History: 3369 (35%)
4. Geography: 1241
5. Demographics: 889
6. Economy: 1199
7. Government: 269
8. Culture and entertainment: 1354
9. Sport: 835
10. Eduction: 159
11. Transport: 745
12. Utilities: 535

So I was wrong, looks like wikitext is a good proxy for word size. We should try and get History down to about 1000 words I think. David Palmer aka cloventt (talk) 22:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

1500 words, in my opinion. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 22:20, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks likewise, and I was analyzing this article today and most sections could get better refs or expanding content. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 22:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There is a lot of good improvement already IMO. However, before this article goes further off course and creates problems for future editors, I suggest creating at least two further sub-sections: 'Maori settlement in the area before 1850' and 'post-2015 events of interest', or words to that effect. These new sections are not about the history of Christchurch, but information about them is being squeezed into that history section. That would solve the problem of eager editors wanting to put this week's media headline into the history article thus filling it with current events and trivia, and would also allow the macronauts to do what makes them feel good. It will also deal, to a certain extent, with the gross breach of the obligation to create an article with the correct weighting. If that is not done we will end up with something of the level of a Year 9 essay rather than an encyclopedic article no lower that Y13 standard. Alexeyevitch, you can be as well read as you like about Christchurch history but knowing facts and dates does not mean you understand how to report its history. In a similar vein, you first have to see what the sources say and from that starting point you create an article; you don't start with an article structured in your mind and then go looking for sources to support your predetermined structure. On a separate issue, I suggest using 'governance' rather than 'government' as a sub-title. That would better describe certain broader issues specific to Christchurch such as water chlorination. 'Housing' might warrant a sub-section too. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

We already have a "Pre-European settlement" second-level heading under the top-level "History" heading, which is roughly equivalent to your suggestion of "Maori settlement in the area before 1850". Do you mean we should make these topics their own top-level headings rather than including them as part of the "History" section? If so I disagree.

I'm really uncertain what you mean by "These sections are not about the history of Christchurch". Pre-European settlement and recent events are absolutely part of the history of Christchurch. That is the appropriate place to include them.

I agree with your suggestion of "Governance" over "Government". David Palmer aka cloventt (talk) 00:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cloventt. Yes, I meant taking the pre-settlement subsection out of the history section and using it to start a new section. That Maori stuff has got almost nothing to do with Christchurch. Further suggestions are to add a subsection on 'Preparations for the settlement'. That would be about the Canterbury Assoc and the advanced team who came out to prepare for the first settlers. There, and IMO only there, is where mention can be made of local Maori because land was bought from them by the association. Additionally, there must be inclusion of the Deans family somewhere. Either a separate subsection or possibly in the preparation subsection because there was some interaction between Godley and the Deans family. The Deanses also bought land from the local Maori and used Maori names so some reference to the local Moari might fit in there too. I prefer a separate subsection for the Deans Family because they were independent from the association. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 10:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

If there is already content in the article that looks good, then that's good. We still have a long way to go before this is article is ready for a GAN, but I think we are further ahead then the Wellington article. I support having a new article called "History of Christchurch" that will give an extensive overview of its history, but we still need to do a good job summarizing content in this article. And, we don't write encyclopedia articles in Y13, which is entirely irrelevant to Wikipedia itself, and I'm not guaranteeing you with what I said there is necessarily "true", because I don't even go there nor do I even care about it. Let's focus on building this encyclopedia collectively, with a "particular" interest in New Zealand articles. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 01:39, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I have begun the process of splitting out to a dedicated page here: Draft:History of Christchurch, New Zealand. Feedback and support to get the article published is appreciated. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 04:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I suggest the new page be simply History of Christchurch to match this article. It can have a hatnote to History of Christchurch, Dorset. It would be polite to post on the talk page of that article to see if anyone objects to overwriting the current disambiguation page.-Gadfium (talk) 05:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I've asked on the relevant talk page, but personally I think that History of Christchurch, New Zealand is a more specific title and matches the status-quo of the current redirect. I am pretty neutral on this issue. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 08:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The draft article looks great, this has potential to be a GA. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 06:23, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done, from the AfC reviewer who accepted the draft, to notify anyone who wants to proceed with the WP:SPLIT cleanup. Cheers, microbiologyMarcus ^{[petri dish·growths]} 19:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The articles have now been split (see History of Christchurch, New Zealand), and I've drastically reduced the length of the history section in this article. It is currently around 650 words, so there is scope to at least double it.

I've gone for early settlement and recent events as per other discussions on this talk page. If anyone is keen to expand it a bit please feel welcome. I've tried to cover the subjects in this summary section with due weight. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 06:36, 4 May 2024 (UTC)