Talk:Circassian genocide/Archive 3
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Semi-protected edit request on 28 September 2023
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To update the blank section "Areas settled by Circassians" area "Levant" https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circassian_genocide&redirect=no#Levant to reference the existing relevant, sourced wiki content below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Kama https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehaniya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians_in_Jordan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians_in_Syria Bossplot (talk) 19:48, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:16, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2023
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change the word constantinople to istanbul in one of the paragraphs as it isnt accurate 82.36.155.168 (talk) 14:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not done: It was called Constantinople at these times. - Altenmann >talk 14:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Trying to shift blame to Ottomans
Re [1] this edit.
The edit is clearly trying to shift the blame for this even from the Russian empire to the Ottomans. This is NOT the mainstream view, to say the least. This is being done on the basis of a source which is claimed to be “Berger, 2015”. It’s actually something from 1880. By “Adolf Petrovich Berger” who lived between 1826-1888 [2]. Berger was obviously Russian writing to justify Russian imperial policy. This is kind of like if the secretary to King Leopold of Belgium was being used as a source to excuse the atrocities in the Belgian Congo. Regardless of the aptness of that analogy we really shouldn’t be using a 19th century source, especially if we’re using it for fringe non mainstream claims.
And on top of that even this obviously biased 19th century source doesn’t even claim that Ottomans were responsible for the genocide (it kind of can’t, since it’s busy denying that a genocide took place at all). All it says is that Russia fought a war with Ottoman Turkey.
The edit summary also just doesn’t make sense.
This is a bad edit and it’s misinformation which is based on a bad source and doesn’t even manage to accurately reflect that source. Please self revert. Volunteer Marek 17:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- 1: I have specified the exact date of the source, the date in the short link refers specifically to the modern edition.
2: You most likely have not studied the source, the war between the Turks and Russia does not appear anywhere in the source.
3: The source does not justify or shift the blame for the genocide, the source refers exclusively to the time of migration of Circassians to Turkey, the source is trying to figure out who is responsible for the resettlement of Circassians to Turkey, again confirms that you have not studied the source. ) Dushnilkin (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)- The source is from 1880. 2012 or whatever is just the re-publication date. The guy died in 1888.
- I have indeed read the source. The source - as unreliable as it is - does not say that Ottoman Turkey was a perpetrator of this genocide as you’re trying to add to the article. Volunteer Marek 23:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I wrote that the date in the short link refers specifically to the specified publication, and not to the work as a whole.
- The source claims that the Circassians began to move because of provocations from the Ottoman Empire, which subsequently led to casualties. I can agree that it is not necessary to specify Osman in the infbox, but there must be a mention in the article. Dushnilkin (talk) 08:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your 1880 Russian source also claims of the expulsions that "The most brilliant exploits of our generals and the amazing heroism and selflessness of the troops left nothing but glorious pages in history." What on earth makes you think such a source is remotely WP:RS? DeCausa (talk) 08:52, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- These are mentions of the author in the started, which does not relate to resettlement in any way, please do not take the data out of context, the analysis itself is neutral, such mentions are only at the beginning and at the end Dushnilkin (talk) 17:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your 1880 Russian source also claims of the expulsions that "The most brilliant exploits of our generals and the amazing heroism and selflessness of the troops left nothing but glorious pages in history." What on earth makes you think such a source is remotely WP:RS? DeCausa (talk) 08:52, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I wrote that the date in the short link refers specifically to the specified publication, and not to the work as a whole.
- Yes, many Circassian refugees emigrated to the Ottoman Empire, and perhaps it did not help them enough. But it does not mean that the Ottoman Empire should be blamed for the genocide. Quite the opposite. My very best wishes (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the fact is that the Turks themselves provoked the Circassians to immigrate, while not providing a sufficient level of security for refugees. The Russians wanted to move Circassians in the Kuban. Dushnilkin (talk) 17:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're pushing a WP:FRINGE view that the Ottomans had some sort of culpability. This is a Russian act and trying to dredge up an 1880 Russian apologist to claim it was "Ottoman provocation" is just hokum. As is your above justification that "the analysis itself [in the 1880 Russian source] is neutral, such mentions [of this being "nothing but glorious pages in history"] are only at the beginning and at the end". That is an absurd justification of a source. If you want to adduce evidence of Ottoman complicity in genocide you need to produce some significantly better scholarship. (Btw, under the Convention the essence of genocide is intent - not just doing things ineffectively with inadvertant consequences.) However, looking at the sourcing in the article which attributes the blame for the genocide squarely on the the Russians it would seem unlikely that such a radically alternative view would meet WP:DUE. DeCausa (talk) 19:57, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just because it does not comply with the genocide convention, I recognized that it is not necessary to mention Osman in the preamble, look carefully at my messages above. Circassians did not begin to move to Turkey because of the Russians, (why would the Russians issue a decree on settling in the Kuban, and then deport them to Turkey?) your criticism is based only on pulling out one phrase that does not relate to the general context of the narrative from the author, I do not think that we can discuss anything normally. Dushnilkin (talk) 20:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- You need to provide proper modern scholarly WP:RS.You're arguing a WP:OR POV which is irrelevant and equally irrelevant comments from a 19th century Russian apologist. I don't think this thread will go anywhere unless and until you have modern WP:DUE scholarship to put forward. DeCausa (talk) 20:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Then the conversation is closed, since the issue of Circassian resettlement is very poorly studied in modern historiography, if I find a "good" source, I will definitely start the conversation again. Dushnilkin (talk) 08:35, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- You need to provide proper modern scholarly WP:RS.You're arguing a WP:OR POV which is irrelevant and equally irrelevant comments from a 19th century Russian apologist. I don't think this thread will go anywhere unless and until you have modern WP:DUE scholarship to put forward. DeCausa (talk) 20:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just because it does not comply with the genocide convention, I recognized that it is not necessary to mention Osman in the preamble, look carefully at my messages above. Circassians did not begin to move to Turkey because of the Russians, (why would the Russians issue a decree on settling in the Kuban, and then deport them to Turkey?) your criticism is based only on pulling out one phrase that does not relate to the general context of the narrative from the author, I do not think that we can discuss anything normally. Dushnilkin (talk) 20:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're pushing a WP:FRINGE view that the Ottomans had some sort of culpability. This is a Russian act and trying to dredge up an 1880 Russian apologist to claim it was "Ottoman provocation" is just hokum. As is your above justification that "the analysis itself [in the 1880 Russian source] is neutral, such mentions [of this being "nothing but glorious pages in history"] are only at the beginning and at the end". That is an absurd justification of a source. If you want to adduce evidence of Ottoman complicity in genocide you need to produce some significantly better scholarship. (Btw, under the Convention the essence of genocide is intent - not just doing things ineffectively with inadvertant consequences.) However, looking at the sourcing in the article which attributes the blame for the genocide squarely on the the Russians it would seem unlikely that such a radically alternative view would meet WP:DUE. DeCausa (talk) 19:57, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the fact is that the Turks themselves provoked the Circassians to immigrate, while not providing a sufficient level of security for refugees. The Russians wanted to move Circassians in the Kuban. Dushnilkin (talk) 17:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)