Talk:Clan Gayre

"Rebuilt the clan"? Not Exactly.

Under the section "20th century", the article states "Robert Gayre of Gayre and Nigg, the father of the present chief, virtually rebuilt the clan..." "Rebuilt" is a bit too weak of a word; I'd suggest "invented". In fact, Mr. Gair -- the actual spelling of his name at birth (source: http://www.therai.org.uk/archives-and-manuscripts/archive-contents/mankind-quarterly-a98/ ) -- built the entire clan from scratch; no such clan or sept by that name is mentioned in any record prior to when Gayre began to write about it in the second-quarter of the 20th century. (source #1: "Robert Gayre, of Gayre and Nigg, is singular among genealogists, dynasts and the like, if only for the reason that, along among them, he has been able to create a Scottish clan from scratch, providing it with traditions, rituals, precedences and privileges...." -- Alastair Phillips, Glasgow Herald, June 14, 1975 [ http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19750614&id=eJBAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6KQMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1955,2975131 ], source #2: ("...the late Robert Gayre (first Chief of the newly formed Clan Gayre)..." -- p. 1866 "World Orders of Knighthood and Merit" by Guy Stair Sainty, Burke's Peerage, London 2006, ISBN 0971196672) Previous generations of Gair's paternal line of ancestors all used the spelling "Gair" as far back as the 17th century. [ http://www.thepeerage.com/p41934.htm#i419337 ] In 1957, after the death of his father, he legally changed his surname to "Gayre of Gayre and Nigg". (source: http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n50023299.html ) Remember: when a Wikipedia editor makes a rather far-fetched claim ("rebuilding a clan"), the onus is on them to support it with verifiable, third-party evidence. Without that, it must be removed. So, unless someone steps in and provides reliable citations to sources that predate Gair and are not penned by him, the claim will have to go. Bricology (talk) 06:37, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

You have some very interesting sources and information that would be good to add to the article. "the claim will have to go" is a bit too strong; I'd suggest rewording the article to reflect the sources you give. A word of caution, I think your research into how the name was written could be considered original research, would need direct references not source: http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n50023299.html or http://www.thepeerage.com/p41934.htm#i419337 , also note that spelling of names evolved in all clans and is not that important (the way a name was spelled usually reflected who was writing it rather than how it was spelled). Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 11:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, I shall add my corrections to the article, properly sourced, including the citations of published genealogical records of Gayre's change in spelling his surname from that of his actual ancestors. That wouldn't be WP:OR. I would say that, whether or not you think it's significant, it's suggestive of him trying to reverse-engineer his lineage to fit known Gayres in Scotland. All I can do is provide the sourced information and let others draw their own conclusions. Bricology (talk) 06:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• Has no one noticed that there isn't a single reliable source cited?! Ref. #1 ( http://www.minardcastle.com/history.html ) was written by Gayre himself (his home was Minard Castle, which he purchased), ref. #2 is RootsWeb forum from 2000, external link #1 consists of two sentences someone recently wrote on a website, and link #2 is a dead link to yet another personal website. NOT ONE THIRD-PARTY REFERENCE! I did a Google Books search for "clan gayre" and not one reference comes up, pre-1930s. I looked through every one of my books on Scottish clans, and there's not a single mention of this supposed clan. My suspicion is that the entire "Clan Gayre" is a fabrication of Robert Gayre's. How is this article even on WP? I'd go a lot further than making corrections, and push for WP:AfD. Occam's Shaver (talk) 16:39, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The article needs a bold editor to do a rewrite, OK agreed now that I see the references. Clan Gayre does however officially exists, but the article needs better sources. Many of the smaller clan's articles use one source. This is

Way, George and Squire, Romily. Collins Scottish Clan & Family Encyclopedia. (Foreword by The Rt Hon. The Earl of Elgin KT, Convenor, The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs). Published in 1994.

The information from this was copied to the Standing Councils web sites. First My Clan which is now archived. See The archive of myclan.com and then the new standing chiefs web site. For Clan Gayre see it at my clan and at the standing council. Even if other sources can be found from clan web sites etc., it is often the case that they have copied this information. Finding other sources would be difficult but not impossible, after all Collins Scottish Clan & Family Encyclopedia must have got its information from other sources. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 10:53, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Czar Brodie wrote "Clan Gayre does however officially exists..." Sorry, but I don't buy it. You cite the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs as proof of this, but that organization is private, not part of the Scottish government, and it has zero authority over anything. As can be read on that group's Wiki, their Charter states "The Objects of the Council, which is non-political, are to consider matters affecting Scottish Chiefs and the Clans and Names which they represent and to submit their views and interests to HM Government, to Departments of State, the Scottish Government, to Local Authorities, to Press and Public..." In other words, they're nothing more than a collection of soi-disant Scottish clan chieftains who act as a PR group. And it's worth noting that many legitimate clan chieftains (the Dukes of Fife and Atholl, the Earls of Gowrie, Crawford, Haig, et al) have declared that they do not recognize the group's legitimacy. Finally, a look at the ICOC's 1996 archive (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/icoc.html) shows that many of the members of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs included such fraudsters as Terence Francis MacCarthy, the so-called MacCarthy Mór, and other fantasy royalty. In short, one cannot trust the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs as a primary source for Clan Gayre. Bricology (talk) 23:56, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

"See also"

A very strange addition has been made under the "See also" section, by an anonymous editor from Minneapolis. It reads more like something to have in the "Talk" section than in the article itself. It states
"Reinold Died in 1996 His son now lives at Minard Castle. Gayre was originally spelled Gair or Gaire amongst a multitude of other configurations. This is only speculation, however, the difficulty with the name seems to have crippled Gaire's mark in history as a old clan, which it most certainly is. [1] [2] one link posted below is a free resource on rootsweb for people also researching this family. Gayre is a surprisingly big family of Highlanders also from Cornwall. They only seem to be divided by the difference in sir name that inevitably will flux through generations. Like when some of them migrated to The Americas, for example. The last name Gay, Gaylord, Gayer, Gaire, Gayre, and Garrison are all finding traces within their family history. This is an ongoing topic of research. Gayre is pronounced with like <Gy-æ-irr> (try to roll your tongue on the r) this is an old family thing I've been told from everyone. Can not verify yet."
It may be news to our anonymous editor, but WP articles are not the place for things that one "can not verify yet". Also, the claim that the spelling of the Clan' "name seems to have crippled Gaire's mark in history as a old clan, which it most certainly is," is bogus, and so are the two "references" it cites -- one to Gayre's own writings, the other to a dead website. Again, the onus is on the claimant to support their claim, not on the skeptic to refute it. If he believes that "Clan Gayre" is an "old clan", he needs to cite some pre-Robert Gayre sources to support it. Both the editor of the Glasgow Herald and Guy Stair Sainty (author of Burke's Peerage's 2-volume set "World Orders of Knighthood and Merit") declared in print that Gayre created the entire clan from scratch. Finally, it's a fact that both Robert Gayre and his direct ancestors were born with the "Gair" spelling, and that Robert Gair legally changed the spelling of his surname to "Gayre" during the time that he was creating the claims of "Clan Gayre"; that's considerably different from just variations or evolutions in a surname's spelling.
I would suggest that this entire new section be removed. If the editor wants to include the claims that he makes in it, he first sign in, and then should fit them into the body of the article, properly referenced with reliable third-party sources. Bricology (talk) 19:37, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree totally with Bricology. I suggest that Sunday the 1^st of September 2013 be the date for removal of the rubbish. Four and a half months should have been enough time for the editor to make the relevant changes. Kiltpin (talk) 11:32, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Clan Gayre - an Armigerous clan ?

I am struggling to find if a Clan Gayre actually exists. The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs does not recognise a chief of Clan Gayre, at least not on their website. The Clan Encyclopedia that is approved by the council, lists it as an Armigerous clan. I can also not find any websites to support the existence of a Clan Gayre. It think this should go in the Armigerous clans list unless it can be proved that there is a recognised chief. QuintusPetillius (talk) 09:37, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

As was pointed out above, the Council is a private group with no authority. The only person who can recognize a legitimate clan chief is Lord Lyon, King of Arms, acting on behalf of the Scottish crown. By awarding them a grant of undifferenced arms -- and differenced arms to any other members of the clan who may successfully petition for them -- Lord Lyon recognizes their existence. I say "recognizes," because most clan chiefs were also at least holders of minor baronies, or otherwise noteworthy enough to have had their arms recorded in various official or unofficial rolls at some point between 1150-1500. Robert Gair mightily confused things by changing his name to "Gayre of Gayre and Nigg," since that suggests that he is the laird of two minor baronies, but does so without Lord Lyon's blessing. I don't know enough to say whether or not Gayre or Nigg were actual historical baronies, or mostly wishful thinking, but the ultimate answer would be in Lord Lyon's office. The Gayre grants/matriculations of arms should cover all that, so if you really want to know, that's where you should look. 68.183.201.246 (talk) 18:31, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Coat of arms

I find it more than slightly ridiculous that someone has added the section "Clan crests & badges", which takes up an entire screen-height -- more than half of the article! I say "ridiculous" because the WP articles for such well-known clans as Campbell, MacDonald and Douglas don't include anything anything like this, despite their chiefs each possessing verifiable arms, and also because whoever posted it seems to be under the misconception that a coat of arms can belong to a clan, rather than (as they must) to one armigerous individual. The arms described could only ever belong to one man. Who was that man and who granted him arms? I have no idea. But a search through the official Scottish database of arms shows that no arms were granted to anyone by the name "Gayre" between 1672 and 1913. Consequently, I am going to remove the section. Bricology (talk) 16:09, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. This whole thing is ridiculous. Dougweller (talk) 08:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

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