Talk:Cost of moving in the United Kingdom

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because it relates to [slab tax] impacts and will be expanded. Data is referenced and accurate. --Tomintoul (talk) 09:41, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

It's not just a matter of whether the topic is important or not: the article simply lacks a clear introductory paragraph, and it's also not clear if you're presenting published ideas, or are arranging data to present your own personal conclusion. I'd suggest reading WP:Tutorial to make sure you're comfortable with the basic concepts. As the article stands at the moment it's not quite an "article" yet. MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:31, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Dubious table

Why are example house prices set at 125001, 250001, &c? It appears that these prices have been chosen solely to reach the next rung on the stamp-duty ladder, so they give a distorted view of costs relative to actual house prices. To avoid cherrypicking numbers, a graph might be better (perhaps with house price along the horizontal axis and component costs shown as coloured bands). bobrayner (talk) 09:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The numbers have indeed been deliberately chosen to illustrate the distorting 'Slab Tax' nature of SDLT i.e. there are artificial jumps at certain points. I agree a graph would be better as it would make the point even more clearly.Tomintoul (talk) 14:30, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that the cherrypicked datapoints are repeatedly added into the article. I don't see any sound reason for this. bobrayner (talk) 15:47, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

That is your personal view. In the year since you last deleted the table, no one else has made a similar comment. It is a critical point that a small change in purchase price dramatically affects the cost of moving. I don't understand why you have a problem with this.Tomintoul (talk) 16:43, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

No, it's a fact; those numbers are cherrypicked. That fails policy and you've yet to explain why we really have to propagandise in this way. bobrayner (talk) 18:29, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't see anything dubious about the SDLT table. It accurately gives the bands at which the various rates apply. I don't know if either of you are in the UK but as someone who has paid a lot of this tax over the years I can confirm that buyers and sellers certainly are aware of the effect of the sharp increases above certain points. For instance you rarely see properties marketed at £255,000 or £260,000 and if you do, on enquiry you usually find the seller is looking for £250,000! I think the anti SDLT stuff in the article was overdone but I am also sure that is one of the key facts that readers of the article would be interested to learn or expect to find. Philafrenzy (talk) 19:29, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

As Philafrenzy says, the slab nature of the tax is a key aspect that readers will be interested in. I cannot understand Bobrayner's problem with clearly illustrating the point. The datapoints are critical to illustrate the dramatic changes in marginal tax. They are not cherry-picked, they are the level set set by Government. I would like further debate on this and intend to restore the table unless there is wider support for its deletion. Tomintoul (talk) 14:15, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Bobrayner

If you want more data points in the table, please add them. Or create a graph. Please do not remove the table again as it is the central part of the article. You are the only person who has questioned it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomintoul (talk • contribs) 11:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I have added more data points that will hopefully make things clearer.Tomintoul (talk) 12:11, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Sideways house move

I have removed the section named "Sideways house move" in the article for three reasons:
A) it is totally unsourced (see WP:Citing sources, WP:BURDEN and WP:No original research)
B) it's accuracy has been disputed as being cherrypicked data (again see WP:BURDEN), and
C) it has been given undue weight considering the almost stub nature of the article.
Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 19:40, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. The data was not reliable. Philafrenzy (talk) 19:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Which bit of data?Tomintoul (talk) 22:14, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The only bit of that table that was actually reliable was the stamp duty % because that is a fixed percentage. All the other figures were mere guesstimates, and what about removal costs for instance, mortgage costs and surveyors fees which you pay when buying and all the incidental costs of moving home? It is impossible to make that table truly accurate as the components vary too much from case to case so we are better off without it. Philafrenzy (talk) 19:53, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't fully agree, but I do take your point. Are you happy if the table showing the dramatic change in SDLT at the break points is restored without the other costs?Tomintoul (talk) 21:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Well the article is supposed to be about the Cost of moving house in the United Kingdom isn't it and while the way SDLT works is a notable part of that it is not the whole story and is already well covered in two places in the article. Is that the only reason you want the table? Philafrenzy (talk) 23:12, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

You are right that the whole table is needed to properly tie in with the article. Is there any way the original table could be improved to satisfy your concerns about its accuracy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomintoul (talk • contribs) 08:46, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

That wasn't what I said or meant. I meant that we already make the point about SDLT twice in the article with a worked example. If that is the only reason you want the table then I don't agree that we need it, sorry. And no, I don't realistically see how the table could be reworked to get it even close to accurate. People's individual situations are so different and the costs of the services they buy and the fees they pay when they move vary so much that it's hard to see how the table could be useful. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

A better approach may be to create a paragraph about each of the major types of expenses when moving, eg removal costs, legal fees, mortgage fees etc and let people work out for themselves what it is all likely to cost. It may be a bit of a struggle to say anything interesting about some of these, however, or to find reliable information for references. Two topics are already there. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

What is your view on the fully referenced section relating to mortgage fees that was deleted by another editor?Tomintoul (talk) 13:35, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Those costs are a major part of the cost of moving house so I reinstated it. Removal costs also are a major cost. I don't see why this article can't include all the major types of costs, though some should have only rough estimates as they vary so much, or no figures at all. I also don't understand your obsession with the £850 "average" of legal fees. The source for that according to The Guardian was the Really Moving site but their own research does not even mention an average. Why is it so important to you? Philafrenzy (talk) 01:09, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Glad you agree on arrangement fees. The £850 figure was one I found at an earlier stage but the link in the article seems to have changed. I am sure The Guardian would have not invented an average cost but I agree in now seems unsubstantiated. With regard to removal costs, I agree with you. I couldn't understand another editor's reasoning that 'common sense' dictated arrangement fee and removal costs should not be included.Tomintoul (talk) 12:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

You could add removal charges but I would add it briefly in the lead unless you can find a good source for a longer discussion. Philafrenzy (talk) 16:16, 12 October 2013 (UTC)