Talk:Maja e zezë

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Title

It's hard to keep up with all of these recent cool and fun and helpful name changes, but I think the best title here is Crn Vrv, the former title for a few years. Searching "Maja e zezë" on Google books returned six English-language results. Of these, most, if not all, appear to be referring to a peak near in Albania or a village elsewhere in Kosovo. I do not believe that any of them refer to this mountain. Searching "Crn Vrv" (with Wikipedia omitted) returned 19 results. Some of these are not in English and some refer to other places. But, at least a few are referring to this mountain. I also searched for the Serbo-Croatian Crn Vrh and didn't find anything related to this mountain. --Local hero ^talk 04:31, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not this again! Err, I mean, no consensus. My first thought was to revert the title to Crn Vrv, as eventually happened in the case of Peskovi, aka Bistër (RM, MRV). However, the cases aren't exactly similar, as bobrayner's move of Peskovi doesn't seem to have been reverting a sock. In this, I think he's allowed more discretion. --BDD (talk) 17:01, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maja e zezë → Crn Vrv –

The longstanding name of this article was Crn Vrv for about 3 and a half years
The title went unchallenged until User:bobrayner recently used a liberal interpretation of WP:BRD to justify his many reverts of originally undiscussed moves like one that occurred at this page, despite those moves having taken place years prior and no evidence of opposition since
Crn Vrv appears to be the common name in English:
- In Google books, "crn vrv" mountain yields nine results, of which two are used a references in the article
- For "maja e zezë" mountain, on the other hand, yields six results of which I cannot confirm that any refer to this mountain since they seem to refer to an unrelated one in northern Albania
  - Therefore, there is no proof that this mountain is at all called by the article's present title in English
Also noteworthy is that this is an international mountain, being in both Macedonia (official language is Macedonian) and Kosovo (official languages are Albanian and Serbian) Relisted. BDD (talk) 23:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC) --Local hero ^talk 22:14, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support I fail to see how Maja e zezë is more common a name than Crn Vrv, or why the Albanian name is being favoured over the Macedonian/Serbian one. 23 editor (talk) 16:14, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: First, Local Hero's own results from googlehits contradict his move request: Maja e Zeze has 6 results, where Crn Vrv has only 5 results (if wikipedia sources are eliminated). Bringing googlebooks results here to support a move, when those same results don't seem to support a move, is useless. Second, Albanian is official language in Kosovo, and I am afraid to inform Local Hero, that such language is also an official language in Macedonia (source), so I'm not sure why the title of the article should be in another language, since this peak is clearly in a territory inhabited by an Albanian majority. --Trimbitrima (talk) 17:52, 5 April 2014 (UTC) Note that this user was active for a total of two days --Local hero ^talk 02:48, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please re-read my rationale, none of the results from Maja e zezë appear to be discussing this mountain; it seems there is one of the same name in Northern Albania.

Albanian is actually not currently official at the national level in Macedonia. Regardless, however, we do not name the article based on what the local population calls but rather what the common name is in English. --Local hero ^talk 23:06, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is no common use in English, so the only sources in English that are available are two translations of Yugoslavian authors in English. No English speaking sources mention them, so I would say that the best solution is to bring this to a neutral one (Black Peak), and be done with it, but with Crn Vrv, you'll always have the Albanians wanting to move the page back to "Maja e Zeze", and they are right, those are Albanian inhabited areas on all four sides of the mountain. The page won't be stable and will create unnecessary problems. Black Peak, Macedonia, can be a good solution. --Trimbitrima (talk) 17:17, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Two English-language sources call this mountain 'Crn Vrv', zero call it the current title, and I also searched for "black peak" macedonia kosovo and got nothing. The nationality of the authors is irrelevant. Whatever the local population calls the mountain does not mean it is the common name in English sources.

By your logic, we should move Kosovo back to Republic of Kosovo since Serbian editors will always be opposed to that naming. We don't select a title simply to appease a certain group of people. --Local hero ^talk 17:55, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support - This user Trimbitrima is not true, you whould check the google again. Its clear that Crn Vrv is actually more common in usage, and, more important, title was changed without agreement, and logic. One more reason to be returned back as it was before User:bobrayner moved it. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 22:27, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both equal in English sources and User:bobrayner was quite correct to revert an undiscussed move by a sockpuppet. The default here should be as the article was created before 21:07, 1 August 2010‎ Evlekis (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (140 bytes) (0)‎ . . (moved Talk:Maja e Zezë to Talk:Crn vrv) and anyone closing should check for new users on this RM also. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:30, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone truly read what I say? There are English sources that name a 'Maja e zezë'. However, they all seemingly refer to an entirely different mountain in Northern Albania. So we're left with no proof that any English-language source has referred to this mountain as 'Maja e zezë'.

Also, please note that 'Crn Vrv' was the long-standing name for well over three years. --Local hero ^talk 15:53, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's taking a long time to clean up the damage done by Evlekis-socks; I'm surprised to see that reframed as a good thing, and a reason to keep their edits. bobrayner (talk) 16:39, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Prior to your massive move effort, perhaps you should've checked to see whether the titles you were moving back to were actually the better names. Here, we can see that no English-language sources seem to call this mountain 'Maja e zezë'. The Evlekis move was done without discussion, but, after going unchallenged for years, it did become the stable title. Reverting this move after so many years, and without doing any research to see whether 'Maja e zezë' is actually valid at all, was unhelpful. --Local hero ^talk 20:22, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.