Talk:Daemen University/Archive 1

Archive 1

Spelling of Mother Daemen

According to various sources it is Mother Magdalene Daemen. Why does it keep on getting changed? What is the source for the spelling "Damen"? Freddiem (talk) 08:15, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Mother Magdalen (Catherine) Damen Misspelled

The correct spelling can be found on the Sisters of St. Francis of Penance and Christian Charity Wikipedia page and her name should be linked to this page. [1]

This misspelling takes place in the History section.

ManHV1S1on (talk) 23:40, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Done. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 15:34, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Explanation needed

Why did the founders of the university choose to use "Daemen" rather than "Damen"? Please explain this in the article - it will also help prevent future "corrections" by helpful but misguided editors. Was it a Latinised spelling of her name? Did they want to avoid it looking like a German ladies' college? Please satisfy my curiosity here! Thanks. PamD 18:38, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Resolved

- and another evening of good intentions to catch up on RL paperwork succumbs to a Wikipedia rabbit-hole. It turns out her name was "Daemen", according to her memorial, and nl.wiki, and various other sources. Have created a little stub for her at Maria Catharina Daemen, and will make a load of redirects from the many variations of her name. PamD 19:34, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Our Wikipedia article on the order got the name wrong too, have fixed it there. PamD 19:35, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

So you are saying as a university we don't know. If you say so. 38.123.35.131 (talk) 20:29, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Not so, 38.123.35.131. What @PamD is saying that per Wikipedia's policy core WP:V, we "base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy".

Not that word "independent". We use what others say about the university, not what the university says about itself.

If you want the university's own self-descriptions to be promulgated, go and buy an advertisement somewhere. Per WP:PROMOTION, "Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising and showcasing".

Also, see WP:PAID and WP:COI, with which you are not complying. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:37, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Replying to the IP editor above "...as a university we don't know..." Well, if you can come up with an explanation as to why they named the college "Daemen" if her name was really "Damen", then please do so - with proper references, and only on this talk page if you, as it seems, have WP:COI. PamD 15:08, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Add Campus Section

I suggest adding a campus section...

Daemen’s main 46.5-acre campus is located in Amherst, New York – a suburban, landscaped location with ready access to the vibrant Buffalo Niagara Region.

The university is easily accessible by major rail, plane, and motor routes servicing the City of Buffalo – and is less than five minutes from the New York State Thruway and I-290. The Buffalo Niagara International Airport, serviced by most major airlines, is a direct 15-minute drive from the campus.

ManHV1S1on (talk) 16:02, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

References

• Oppose. Promotional tone, with some WP:PEACOCK phrasing. Sourced only to the university itself, ratheer than to reliable 3rd-party sources. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:58, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Additional Notes About the University's History

In 1947, Rosary Hill College was established by the Sisters of St. Francis of Penance and Christian Charity as an institution of higher education for women offering studies in the liberal arts.

In 1976, Rosary Hill became a secular and independent institution and was renamed Daemen College, in honor of the founder of the Sisters of St. Francis – Mother Magdalene Damen, of Holland. Earlier that decade, in 1971, the college became co-educational, but had enrolled men starting in the late 1960’s.

In 1992, New York State allowed for an amendment to the college’s charter to allow Daemen to award graduate-level degrees (in addition to baccalaureate degrees).

In March 2022, the New York State Education Department Board of Regents approved an amendment to Daemen’s charter allowing the institution to become a university under the state’s revised definition.

Prior to this change, New York was among the only U.S. states requiring the operation of academic doctoral-level programs to be a university. Within days of the rule change, Daemen submitted its application to the Board of Regents – and is among the first educational institutions in New York to successfully petition to become a university under the new rules.

38.123.35.131 (talk) 13:17, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Your link to your own .edu page is not very helpful. If you post links to independent reliable sources that verify these facts, then people can help you add the information to the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:07, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

This is uncontroversial information for which the institution's website is perfectly okay. I've copied some of it to the article and integrated it into the history section. ElKevbo (talk) 01:01, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@ElKevbo: Per WP:V, we need an independent source, so I have reverted.

This article has been the subject of sustained COI editing by two people employed by the university; a third appears to be connected. In the face of such sustained abuse, please can we keep things simple by adhering to a literal application of WP:V's requirement for independent sources? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:19, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

WP:V does not require the use of independent sources nor does it forbid the use of self-published sources; it merely advises caution against using them. What exactly do you find objectionable in this information? ElKevbo (talk) 01:32, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@ElKevbo: what I find objectionable is that these sources are published by an organisation whose employees have been visibly colluding to abuse Wikipedia for promotional purposes. I therefore doubt their reliability, and per WP:BURDEN the "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material".

WP:V says: "Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". The university is not independent of itself. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:50, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Unless you plan to begin going to other articles and removing uncontroversial information that is sourced solely to the subject's website, this appears to be about punishing this editor to the detriment of this article and our readers. ElKevbo (talk) 02:02, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

No, @ElKevbo, it's about not basing an an encyclopedic article on the promotional content published by the same Daemen College Office of Institutional Communications whose staff have demonstrated here their unreliability, tendency to hype, and disregard of Wikipedia policies. In short, to put it as kindly as I can manage, a bunch who appear to be neither reliable nor independent.

Note that there is not one editor involved, but three, at least two of whom are Daemen University staff. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:45, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

One editor, possibly a few, are having difficulty adapting to our weird and complex community and you've unilaterally decided that the entire website of an accredited college cannot be trusted for basic information about the institution's history. That seems to be a bit...over the top. And out of line with our practices. ElKevbo (talk) 03:21, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Sigh.

@ElKevbo, you are the one arguing that we should ignore WP:V's requirement to "Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy".

Please stop trying to personalise my response that this bunch look like a really bad case for an exception to core policy. One of three miscreants reported[2] on your own talk page that the IP who proposed this is "our Web Director from our Director of Institutional Communication". In other words, the person proposing this edit is the person with direct responsibility for the webpage cited as the only source. That is way out of line with our practices. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

You need to step away from this article and take a break from Wikipedia. You've unilaterally decided what can and cannot be included in this article, unnecessarily added multiple maintenance templates to it, and now you're attacking other editors by labeling them "miscreants." Unless you plan to add similar maintenance templates to other articles and remove all information sourced from subjects' websites, you're targeting these editors and this article. You're better than this. ElKevbo (talk) 04:01, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Sigh. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I added the tags to this article because it needed them: it does have unreferenced sections, and it has been heavily edited by COI editors (the whole "Notable people" section was is unsourced, and was added by one of those COI editors). I am here only because one of those editors asked me to be here, and upholding WP:V is not a "unilateral" action.

There is a bundle of evidence to justify my use of the term "miscreants". For example, at least two of them are COI editors who have been in clear breach of WP:PAID; two of them have added promotional content; one has edit-warred to re-add that content despite it being also opposed in discussion; one added a huge chunk copyvio text to the article.

If you can't see all of that, then it is you who needs to step away from this article and take a break from Wikipedia. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:48, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

COI editing of this page

There are related discussions about WP:COI editing of this article at:

• User talk:BrownHairedGirl#University_Page_Help (permalink)
• User talk:ElKevbo#Daemen_University (permalink)

Note that the IP address 38.123.35.131 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has made 14 edits to this article, all between October 2021 and April 2022. According to this comment by paid editor ManHV1S1on (talk · contribs), the edits are being made by our Web Director from our Director of Institutional Communication.

I have therefore tagged[3] this article with {{COI}}. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:38, 25 April 2022 (UTC)