Talk:Deities and personifications of seasons

Drastic changes

Any thoughts? Johnbod (talk) 03:20, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

The thought is very simple: one set of unrefereced statements is replaced by another, equally unreferenced ones. This is exaclty why refs are required: verification. --Altenmann >talk 16:52, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I thought khoras are well-known stuff, but the unref claims sit there for 5 years already. Unless someone provides refs soon, I will delete this stuff. --Altenmann >talk 16:52, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

And just leave the classical period unrepresented (again)? Great plan. I don't think any of the 2019 edits are left - you did look at the date, didn't you? Johnbod (talk) 16:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

And you did compare the texts before "don't thinking", right? Yes, better leave the classical period unrepresented than represented by suspicious stuff. Dont argue against the policies and add refs, or the text will be gone, either in an easy or a hard way. --Altenmann >talk 17:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

The current OCD's online entry on the Horae[1] is brief and identical to the OCD³'s. It names Hesiod's three (Eunomia, Dike and Eirene, none of whom are named for specific seasons), saying H is followed by e,g. Pindar, and Pausanias's much later mention of two Attican ones with growth-related names, Thallo (blooming) and Karpo (from καρπός‎, ‘crop, fruit’). "Often they remain anonymous". Among their "common associates" are "Demeter 'bringer of the Seasons' (Hymn. Hom. Cer. 54, etc.)". Moving on from the classical period with a new paragraph, we find Ptolemy II Philadelphus's third-century BCE procession had four Horae (citing Athenaeus 198b) and "Such differentiated ‘season Horae’ were a favourite theme of Graeco-Roman art thenceforth". OCD² had "Their names and number vary from region to region" and then "When Hellenic religion develops to a more unified and intellectual state, the Seasons, whether three or four, are also called Horae" bringing their proper blessings and depicted with appropriate attributes. I have no idea whether this was omitted from OCD³ for concision or as misleading. It does appear we would be wrong to indicate that the Greeks of the classical period allocated Horae to specific seasons, or that there were four, or that there was much consistency. NebY (talk) 18:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Athenaeus doesn't provide names, sorry to disappoint. It is after all already a very long quote of Callixenus's long description of a famously long procession. (198b[2] is 5.27 in another system[3] and translated here.) NebY (talk) 19:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

The new Cambridge Greek Lexicon, which does include a variety of proper names, has entries for kheimon, ear (not eiar), theros and phthinoporon, as seasons but not as personifications or as proper nouns. It does not have an entry for damia; Liddell and Scott has long entries with many examples for kheimon, ear and theros and a short one for phthinoporon, none mentioning personification. It has damia as Cretan for zemia, loss, damage. Demeter, Altenmann's other deletion, is of course a goddess of agriculture and the fruitfulness of the earth generally, but I think not limited to autumn or specifically a goddess of it. NebY (talk) 21:04, 23 September 2024 (UTC) + clarification NebY (talk) 20:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. The distinction beween the thing and the deity or personification of the thing is often pretty elastic in Graeco-Roman culture, as RS often point out. Johnbod (talk) 02:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

That's why I demand references. All these Greek terms are simply names of the seasons. I can attest blenty of poets write Spring (Primavera, Lenz, Vesna, Pavasaris,... from capital letter, paint a beautiful girl with a flower wreath and effusively describe her values and valirs. But nobody in clear mind will say that "'Spring' is a personification of Spring". If anything, the correct term would be allegory of Spring (oops, surprize! disambig page needed here; not only Botticelli was keen on allegories... done. Maybe someone can write a full-blown article). --Altenmann >talk 04:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

We have personification, which you should probably read. Johnbod (talk) 01:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

To some extent. There are personifications in classical Greek cosmogony and epic (e.g. Eris with her apple) but not so much in cult, where we often find aspects of major gods instead. Allegorical appearances increase in the Hellenic period, but I think neither period quite matches the extraordinary range of minor deities/personifications of the Romans. What's more, even the late mentions of four Horae as seasons by Athenaeus, Nonnus and Quintus Smyrnaeus don't name them individually. Presumably the costumiers and stage managers of Ptolemy Philadelphus' procession called them something rather than "hey you!" but it's not recorded, and might have been any of the words the Greeks had for seasons. We have no basis for using those words as names here, strong reasons to reject their descriptions as of "early ancient Greece", "classic ancient Greece", and their inclusion gives the misleading impression that "the Greeks" had four seasonal divinities of some significance to them. It's been interesting probing this - thank you - but everything's confirmed the appropriateness of Altenmann's deletions. I'll repeat them. NebY (talk) 19:28, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, whatever, but the Tower of the Winds doesn't exactly reinforce that picture. Johnbod (talk) 01:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)