Talk:Delayed sleep phase disorder/Archive 3

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External links

Wikipedia's external links policy and the specific guidelines for medicine-related articles do not permit the inclusion of external links to non-encyclopedic material, particularly including: patient support groups, personal experience/survivor stories, internet chat boards, e-mail discussion groups, recruiters for clinical trials, healthcare providers, fundraisers, or similar pages.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an advertising opportunity or a support group for patients or their families. Please do not re-insert links that do not conform to the standard rules. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You claim that wikipidia's external links policy does not permit external links to non-encyclopedic material. This is backwards. From the external links policy you quoted: "What Should be linked", list item 4:
"Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews."
From the same place: "Links normally to be avoided", list item 1:
Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.
So you have it backwards. The external links policy specifically encourages links to non-encyclopedic material (encyclopedic material should rather be incorporated into the article not linked).
Nowhere on the policy pages you quoted are "patient support groups, personal experience/survivor stories, internet chat boards, e-mail discussion groups, recruiters for clinical trials, healthcare providers, fundraisers" mentioned. The only thing along those lines which is recommended against (not prohibited, the only prohibited links are to copyright violations and spam blacklisted sites) is "discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups) or USENET". Your statement misrepresents the policy pages.
It is true that wikipedia is not a support group. That does not prevent wikipedia from linking to support groups, in the case that they are relevant. Wikipedia is also not a dictionary, but it has links to wiktionary definitions, neither is it a travel guide nor an instruction manual, but it contains links to wikitravel and wikihow.
I don't have any strong opinion about the issue of links to patient support groups, but I do think that you are claiming there is a consensus or policy against them when those manual of style pages do not actually support your claim. Thus I am unconvinced that such a policy exists. lev (talk) 14:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Note also that the inclusion of that link was discussed above. --Hordaland (talk) 18:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
There are some strong reasons to keep the link: Although it superficially resembles a discussion forum, it is a peer support group and as such contains unique and valuable information on how the condition affects people's lives. There aren't other resources like it, so we haven't run into any problems along the lines of "we have this link so we have to have ten others like it", which is the WP:Spam Event Horizon problem that the External Links guidelines are largely designed to address.
Note that the External Links guidelines are better characterized as guidelines rather than a standard "set of rules". Furthermore at Wikipedia we ignore rules if they stand in the way of improving the encyclopedia. In what way is this article better without the link than with it? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 21:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The external links section is in a poor state, in as much few of the items provide greater detail than that which is already included in the article, or are single individual essay in a non-reliable source that touts for campaign action:
  • niteowl-circadiandisorders.org - invitation page to a members only service is not open information and fails give any indication that the organisation is itself notable. If it were the largest group worldwide (assuming that could be verified) and provided a level of detail far beyond what wikipedia's article should have, then clearly there would be no problems linking to it. However it is merely a "a place for people whose circadian rhythms don't quite match up with the rest of society" to "vent about bosses ... and other trials of night owl life." That sounds like a forum and wholly inappropriate as an external link. If people merely want to find other websites on the topic, Google provides 44,600 hits. I concur with WhatamIdoing’s removal of this EL.
  • Given that WP:ELNO point 1 "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article", then I find the unsigned personal opinion essay of http://www.nightworkers.com/discrimation.html not to be of a WP:Reliable sources (e.g. journal, national print/radio/television media) and merely is soliciting for people to join an action group. The piece lacks any providence of 3rd party sources to confirm that this is a notable campaign, and an external link for that website seems spamming. Now if there was an article on the group (assuming it passed the threshold of WP:N) then of course the link would be appropriate under Wikipedia:EL#What should be linked "1. Articles about any organization...", but this article is on a condition, not an attempt to drum up a protest movement.
  • Finally http://www.clevelandclinic.org/health/health-info/docs/3700/3714.asp?index=12116&src=news clearly provides less information than this interesting article already includes and so adds nothing. If it happens to provide a point that helps verify something in our article then it would be better included as a footnote, but it does not "contain further research that is accurate and on-topic; information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks); or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to their reliability (such as reviews and interviews)." (WP:EL lead-in). I have therefore removed this EL too. David Ruben Talk 01:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Connection between DSPS and hibernation

My brother (n24), and myself, (DSPS, thanks NiteOwl List!)... We find that we sleep more hours in the summer months then we do in the winter, and are thinner (less "belly-mass") in winter then summer. Question is; Is there a correletaion between DSPS and hibernation in humans? I.e. circadian bio-rhythm patterns of daily sleep phase cross-referenced with annual hibernation pattern shown by non-human mammals, some invertibrates, and marine life, to pin-point genetic loci in humans. 76.171.211.8 (talk) 07:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Famous people

I find this "trivia" section inappropriate here. The author is certainly famous, but suggesting he had DSPS in addition to his epilepsy is based on speculation long after the fact. He died 100 years before DSPS first was described. If no objections, I will remove the section in a few days. --Hordaland (talk) 10:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Moving paragraph here from article.

"One tactic, which can backfire, is staying up all night, and the following day in order to go to bed at an extremely (relative to the patient's normal sleeping schedule) early hour. For example, if a patient wakes at 3pm on Tuesday, he'll attempt to stay awake until 6pm Wednesday in hopes of waking at 6am Thursday. This can backfire if the patient succumbs to sleep before the planned "bedtime", say noon Wednesday. This can worsen the patient's condition with repeated failures as the body becomes accustomed to a further "Night-Owl"ish sleeping schedule. The key in making this tactic work is combining it with other, more conventional, proven tactics, and remaining totally occupied until the "bedtime". Good luck... but proceed with caution." -Jonathan Maingot

The above "signed" comment was recently added to the article. It seems to reflect one person's experience with the described tactic. (Many other patients with DSPS, I happen to know, use the described tactic fairly regularly without the problem described here.) In any case, this paragraph as written doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. - Hordaland (talk) 09:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Personal Experience

Thanks, but this is not relevant to this talk page. See User talk:Lapchair. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 10:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hi all I have been reading this wiki and discussion for some time now. My sleeping trouble started as young as 3, but the first time I remember it causing me issues was around 14. I did pretty badly in school because I was always exhausted and still had trouble getting to sleep the next day. I am now 25 and figured it was time to see a sleep doctor to see whats up. Before going to the doctor I recorded a sleep log for about a month to show him. I mentioned DSPS and he said I nailed it, though he called it "onset insomnia" as well as "Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome" (I guess I have both? or maybe they are the same thing?). He said it is not that uncommon with people my age, and that it will get better as I get older. He said it is not a disease, but it is something I will have problems with for quite some time. I inquired about Marijuana, Sleeping Pills, and alcohol. His answer was that they will help get to sleep temporarily, but if you continue to use them that you will reach the point where you don't think you can get to sleep without them. So even though Marijuana may not be physically addicting, in this case it could easily become psychologically addicting. In his words the best way to fight it is by "Attacking the problem on multiple fronts":

1. Maintain a rigid sleeping schedule (even on weekends). 2. Use the bed only for sleep and sexual activities. 3. Cease stimulating activities 30-60 minutes before bed to relax the mind. 4. Don't try to fall asleep for more than 20 minutes, if it doesn't happen then get up and do something relaxing like read a book, and try again. 5. Mellatonnin can help induce sleepiness in some cases. 6. Exercise regularly for general healthiness and to "Burn excess energy" (however do not exercise within 2 hours of bedtime). 7. Avoid stimulants within a couple hours of bedtime (caffeine, nicotine, sugar).

I can say with certainty that when I exercised regularly I was able to get to sleep significantly faster. He said that even if I follow all of these rules that my circadian rhythm can still be thrown out of sync if I am not careful. With this being a recent diagnosis, I haven't yet done all of the above... but I felt compelled to share some of the information I learned with you guys. The hardest thing for me will be going to sleep at the same time on weekends as I do on weekdays for work. One other thing that has helped me is white noise. I have quiet fan I leave on at night, this allows me to focus on a consistent sound rather than sporatic sounds of cars driving by outside. --Lapchair (talk) 09:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

possible cure?

can't a person suffering from this simply pull an all nighter and try to stay awake the next day and go to sleep at like 8:00 PM and they're back to a normal schedule? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.59.5.156 (talk) 15:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

Yes, of course we've all thought of that. That's about the first thing we try, and it always remains as a last resort. For one, you feel like the walking dead all day and make stupid mistakes. Second, you build up a major sleep deficit that only serves to disrupt the circadian rhythm even more. Lastly, that pretty much only works for two or three days and then you're right back where you were. For some folks this even catalyzes a decline into non-24-hour circadian rhythm disorder. The nature of DSPS is that it's a chronically shifted sleep phase. It's not like just resetting a clock -- it's more like trying to keep an umbrella up in the wind. —ptk✰fgs 17:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about other sufferers, but I have found from personal experience that a lack of sleep during one sleep cycle will cause me to be sleepy when I wake up, sleepy through the day, and wide awake after about 8pm the following night. Wampusaust 06:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Same here, like right now. Last night I couldn't force myself to sleep. It was 4:50 when I went to sleep, despite the fact that I had to go to work at 9:00. So I slept only slightly less than 4 hours. I was exhausted at work. I nearly fell asleep during calls (I work on the phone, in a callcenter). Now it's 01:00 the following morning and I'm fully awake and don't feel any urge to sleep. Earlier, around 22:00, I felt a little tired, but now I'm completely awake again. Listening to happy music and feeling happy as a fish. Knowing that I'll be facing another day at work feeling like *censure*. --Rabbeinu 21:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I concur as well. I've had an all-nighter several times, and I will be completely exaughsted doing even the most non-active things in the world. But as soon as it reaches "bed time" I am completely wide awake. Its rather irritating. 204.112.155.232 23:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I completely agree with all of these posts, pulling an "all-nighter" is something I've done atleast 60 times in the last 2 years, and not once has it succeeded in correcting my circadian rhythm. Not only does your rhythm go back to the exact same state, but you feel like a zombie that entire day, and not particularly well the day after either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.209.91 (talk) 12:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Well I partly agree, all-nighters are the last (and possibly the only?) resort but sometimes they do work. Not permanently though. I have pulled all-nighters at least once a week for the past two years (or used chronotherapy for two to three consecutive days to "fix" my schedule) and about half of those times I managed to maintain normal sleeping patterns for at least a week. However, even the slightest change i.e. sleeping an hour later than usual may result in DSPS recurring. The longest period I had managed to maintain normal sleeping patterns was roughly a month.Akpe (talk) 09:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Another agree-er here. This only works if I have already been very sleep deprived in the past few days, and only means that I will spend the next day being incredibly tired. If I'm not previously deprived, then I'll still stay up until 3am as usual, making things even worse than they already are. Not worth it at all. (Ervin2 (talk) 07:51, 15 May 2010 (UTC))
It's truly a terrible way to force yourself into a "normal" sleep pattern. I had a sleep study done on myself while sleeping at night after using that very trick to force myself to sleep at night(I was on about my 3rd or 4th night of sleeping after doing it). The results showed that I had 109 "arousals" during that one night and I matched perfectly with someone in a drug induced sleep. I never entered REM and spent the entire night jumping back and forth between the early stages of sleep. The thing is, I was not under the effects of any drug at the time of the sleep study. What exactly am I trying to say? I'm saying that when we force ourselves to sleep at night, we aren't really sleeping. None of the stuff that's suppose to help set our circadian rhythm occurs and none of the stuff that's supposed to help repair our bodies ever occurs during our night sleeps. This is why we feel like zombies. This is why we tend to develop problems; some with permanent consequences(like diabetes). This is why, no matter how hard we try, our circadian rhythm will never be corrected. This why we continue to build a sleep debt instead of sleeping it off, while sleeping at night. Eventually, that debt becomes so large that your body and mind eventually force you back into your natural delayed pattern. I've spent the past decade trying to figure out what was wrong with me and, now that I finally understand, I can only see one solution. I'll have to adapt my life to match my natural sleep pattern. I've built up a sleep "debt" from trying to force myself to sleep at night. I'll probably spend quite some time paying it off by sleeping extended periods during the day. However, once that debt has been cleared and I find myself in a "normal" pattern, I'll start scheduling my life around that pattern. Forcing myself to sleep at night will only result in further harming myself. Being a night owl may make me a little stir crazy being awake when everyone else sleeps but it beats the hit to my health from trying to sleep at night. I just have to accept the fact that I cannot live on everyone else' schedule. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LordZelgadis (talk • contribs) 17:12, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

DSPS and Asperger Syndrome

I have both severe DSPS (self diagnosed) and Asperger Syndrome (clinical diagnosis). I am aware of a number of people with long term sleep patterns of falling asleep 4 - 8 am, and sleeping till mid-day - late afternoon. All but one of them also has Asperger Syndrome. I know my sample is only small, but I was wondering if anyone has considered a correlation between the two?

I have also had depression, but only the once, not chronic.

203.42.208.180 (talk) 01:01, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I am certain I have DSPS. I have only recently realised this. Fifteen years ago I went to the doctor about my sleep problem. He did what all doctors tend to do: refer me to a psychologist. The psychologist had specialised in autism. So it was the trendy thing to do to refer me to a diagnosis for Asperger's syndrome. It soon became obvious to me that this whole area of research (Asperger's syndrome) is replete with funding-orientated zealots who (and it was more the case fifteen years ago) want nothing more than huge numbers of diagnoses, to justify and publicise the clinical enterprise. And their 'syndrome' was so nebulous in its definition that they could -- and did -- diagnose just about anyone who had some kind of organically-based problem that impacts upon their relationship with society.

All the people I know who appear to have DSPS seem to be at the very opposite end of the spectrum from those who fit the diagnostic criteia for Asperger's. They are all extremely creative (and with it, rather interesting). Diagnoses of Asperger's Syndrome merely confounds the whole issue, just like the tendency among doctors to tell someone who has a sleep problem that they are almost certainly depressed (as I was wrongly told, many times).86.2.112.167 (talk) 12:25, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I feel I must respond to this ill-informed attack from someone who clearly has no understanding of Asperger's whatever. Many aspies are creative and indeed interesting, and while there was and is a problem of 'faddish' diagnoses of Asperger's (as there is with almost any psychological disorder that becomes newsworthy for any reason, as psychological diagnostic criteria are rarely susceptible of clear description), that does not mean, as you seem to believe, that the syndrome is entirely non-existent. As a diagnosed aspie myself I couldn't describe the symptoms to you in less than several paragraphs, but I can always recognise another aspie within mere minutes of conversation. I might dispute its classification as a disease (in my experience, analytical intelligence is strongly comorbid with AS), but it definitely exists.
Perhaps you should consider yourself lucky that you were referred to anyone. When I went to a doctor about my sleep problem, she just gave me the standard sleep-hygiene advice and didn't even seem to believe that my condition was chronic.
In my opinion, the extremely limited knowledge of the physiology of autistic spectrum disorders means we cannot realistically claim a link between DSPS and Asperger's; on the other hand, since a diagnosis of either would tend to partially mask the other, any correlation would not tend to show up in comorbidity statistics. 203.42.208.180 is right to suggest a connection as a possibility and call for study. PT 08:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Prevalence

Are we SURE this is so rare? I realize I'm just one person, but I know very few adults and precisely ZERO adolescents whose natural sleeping patterns aren't like this. They sleep around mid-night and wake at mid-day, bypassing the AM entirely. Unless they have to change this for work, of course, which just about everyone does, but many many people work around by working later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.11.36.165 (talk) 19:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Going to sleep at 12am is not that late, something that can be easily done if you occupy yourself with video games or TV. People with mild DSPS go to sleep at around 2am(as clearly stated in the article), and with more extreme cases go to sleep at around 4am. Also, 12am - 12pm equals 12 hours of sleep, which any person after a hard week would be happy to do. DSPS is not a skewed sleeping pattern, but delayed. Patients still sleep the normal hours of 8 or 9 hours, but do it much later than normal people do. When I was a kid I was always the last person to fall asleep at sleepovers and and such, so from my perspective absolutely ZERO adolescents tend to go to sleep unusually late. What you described is nothing like DSPS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.73.6 (talk) 07:32, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm looking for a source

People with the disorder also show delays in other circadian markers, such as melatonin-secretion and the core body temperature minimum, that correspond to the delay in the sleep/wake cycle. The timing of sleepiness, spontaneous awakening, and these internal markers are all delayed by the same number of hours. Non-dipping blood pressure patterns are also associated with the disorder[citation needed] when present in conjunction with socially unacceptable sleeping and waking times.

The above was just removed from the article, physiology section, as uncited. Give me a while. I'd like to put (most of) it back in, well-sourced. - Hordaland (talk) 00:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I have been told that cortisol level is another 'circadian marker'. 'Normals' have a cortisol level that is at its peak when they wake in the morning, and gradually drifts down during the day; whereas DSPD-ers/Night Owls wake with a low level which gradually increases during the day, peaking in the evening. (Cortisol drives energy level, alertness etc). I'll try and find a citation for this. [From personal experience, realising that one's body chemistry is measurably different rather than it just being a lack of willpower is remarkably liberating!] - Grumpypierre (talk) 09:51, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

DSPS and Creativity, and other Matters

I have DSPS and am also an intensely creative type. I know two other people whose lives have been blighted to the extent that mine has, by DSPS (apparently), and they are also both very creative types. One of those tells me that the one or two further people whom he knows who appear to have DSPS are all artists. This can't be mere coincidence. Is as though there is a deficit of physical energy that is compensated for by an excess of creative energy.

Also of note is the extreme physiological reaction that can occur when I violate my natural sleeping pattern -- severe failure of the gyroscopic system, nausea, cold sweats and, much more commonly, panic attacks at around midday, persistent hay-fever-like symptoms, inability to focus on any tasks (leading to apparent foolishness), physical and emotional over-sensitivity to the environment, and feelings of depression (all compounded of course, by ignorance in he medical profession, and in society generally).

One further point: in my case, it is not only needing to sleep for, say, nine hours, but also also the need for a long period in an alpha-wave state, that I feel is necessary to have a balanced brain chemistry in the day ahead. Nevertheless the energy balances are so finely tuned that even a night shift -- being removed from a more natural pattern of free and emotionally untaxing activity, a 'day' in which substantial physical activity occurs only when, and for the short time spans in which it feels fully desirable -- upsets the system. To the rest of the world, it looks like extreme laziness. SwampOwl (talk) 12:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Sleepy students

This picture and, especially, caption, made me literally laugh out loud. It seems kind of non sequitur on Wikipedia. --George Makepeace (talk) 21:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

DSPS

I happened to access this syndrome by surfing Wikipedia. My original search was on melatonin as a sleep aide. I am so relieved that there is a name put to my many years of "atypical" sleep and hightened cognitive schedules. I cant wait to share this with family and friends who have felt all that was needed was a "regular schedule". As a child I would lay awake and watch the activities outside my window for hours beyond the households typical bedtime. Difficulty functioning in the morning was the norm. Around 8:00 in the evening my "energy level" starts to pick up; not only my physical level but my mental sharpness as well. While those around me are winding down , I am gearing up. AM tasks, other than routine, are difficult and stress inducing. PM tasks can be rapidfire, in multiplicity as well mental acuity. Creative tendencies as well as focus are peaked between the hours of 8:00 PM and 2:00 AM. Attempts to "regulate" my sleep patterns to fit that of others in the household have been futile. I could go on and on about the points mentioned in this article. It is spot on to my experiences; right down to the head injuries I sustained as a child and teen. Suzanne 24.16.4.156 (talk) 10:00, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

This isn't the place for personal stories. See the info note near the top of this page which says: "For general discussion about DSPS, please use a discussion forum such as the Niteowl mailing list." Thanks, Hordaland (talk) 11:08, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

International Classification of Sleep Disorders (ICSD)

In the ICSD-1, this disorder's name was Delayed sleep phase syndrome (DSPS). In the newer version, ICSD-2, the name is Delayed sleep phase disorder (DSPD). The name of the article should be changed to reflect this. --Hordaland (talk) 05:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

A very useful link for people who think/know that they suffer from DSPS

I'm a DSPS sufferer myself and had a lot of benefit by reading other's stories and experiences. Since there aren't many sites around with this much useful information and/or talk groups... this might be a useful link for others and therefore might be included on the DSPS page.

The link is to a subject page of the 'experience project' website, and contains 40+ personal experience stories.

http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Have-Delayed-Sleep-Phase-Syndrome/195596 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.141.247 (talk) 18:10, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I have DSPD. I beat it too.

I have had DSPD since 13/14 y/o. I do remember the days that I woke up with the sun rising in my childhood. However, for 20 years now I CANNOT fall asleep until 4-5Am. I wake up between 11-12Am spontaneously. My method of dealing with this unstoppable force is to get a lifestyle that fits my phasing. Society tells us that the sunrise starts our day. But, if I had to do that, my life would be miserable. I think that means that I was meant to work 2nd shift or later. Those later in the day jobs exist, and it can be worked out with family and friends. In reality, I became a musician. Most musicians have this sleep cycle. I found being a night cook was a good job when I got out of school, and music became my culture and now my sole profession.

Though, the major issue is school. In my teens and college, I suffered with insomnia, going to bed at 4:30Am to get up for a 9Am class, and sometimes I didn't make it to bed. "I will just be extra tired from staying up and I will be ready for bed at a normal time tomorrow" I tell myself. Yet I would stay awake all the way to 4Am again, lying in bed or not, awake for 36-48 hours straight. However, after school, my life fell into order, and now I am fulfilled and happy to have the Noon-4Am lifestyle. At this point, I don't think I will ever change. My friends make jokes about it, but they all secretly wish they could do it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.56.145 (talk) 04:47, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I have DSP. I've had it for 45 years. It is not a disorder, just part of the diversity of human life. Vexorg (talk) 01:50, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Two edits look inappropriate?

Two edits by 207.255.153.166 today are on my watchlist. "It has been shown", and "one sign" of untreatability being "I have done all I can!" Both look anecdotal & suspect, like forum FAQs not Wikipedia.

Are these clinically verified? James James 173 (talk) 16:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted them. --Hordaland (talk) 10:32, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Computer/Digital Lifestyle chocies?

Is it possible that adolescent habits of gaming and IMing later at night may be a contributing factor in teenage and young adult prevelency of DSPD? The reason I ask is that after having looked at the Wiki page, I noticed a striking similarity between DSPD symptoms and my own rather troublesome sleeping pattern; and I often make a bad habit of staying up late gaming, or watching Youtube videos. Perhaps I've induced DPSP-like symptoms by having "night owl" tendencies? 86.179.17.133 (talk) 16:56, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Evidence of genetic determination of circadian rhythm

It seems that there should be some mention of the evidence for genetic determination of DSPS and ASPS such as the work done by Simon Archer[1].

Also, it would be nice to see some reference to the B Society[2] that rejects the idea that differing circadian rhythms are a disorder and pushes for social flexibility to accomodate differing "chronotypes." The Danish government is even working to make accommodations [3] for late risers.

--Sjackisch (talk) 20:32, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Notes

  1. ^ Archer, 2003
  2. ^ B-Society
  3. ^ accommodations

References

Archer, 2003 SLEEP, Vol. 26, No. 4, 2003 Simon Archer

Citation needed for use of melatonin in introductory paragraph

"DSPD can be treated or helped in some cases by careful daily sleep practices, light therapy, and medications such as melatonin and modafinil (Provigil); the former is a natural neurohormone responsible partly and in tiny amounts for the human body clock." Specifically, "...partially and in tiny amounts" is am inappropriately abstract description of how much effect melatonin has, and is also not clear whether "tiny amounts" refers to the amount of effect or amount of melatonin.

Additionally, the National Sleep Foundation says that there is unclear effect of melatonin on sleep patterns given the studies they have read.

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/sleep-topics/melatonin-and-sleep

Sczerwinski (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC)Steve Czerwinski, 13-Jan-14

Belated thanks. "In tiny amounts" has been removed, and the Medication section now cites the mixed reviews. —Patrug (talk) 05:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Please fix - Inconsistent use of DSPD, DSPS throughout article

Article starts out mostly using DSPD, then switches to DSPS 2/3 of way through article. I recommend we use one anagram throughout. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.119.38 (talk) 19:30, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Done, except for titles (in the references) and direct quotes. --Hordaland (talk) 21:52, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Addition to above

Agree with above. Additional editorial style note: as awareness of DSPS grows, many people who live completely normal (albeit chronologically shifted, night-owl) lives with the 'Syndrome' consider it passé at best, and prejudicial at worst, that the 'syndrome' continues to be stigmatised as a 'disorder'. This serves to perpetuate the obvious social problems experienced by anyone with DSPS. Therefore, the sooner DSPD is consistently replaced with DSPS, the sooner (and it will take years) mainstream society will acknowledge it as a personality type rather than an 'illness'. We are 'different', not 'sick'.

--T 18:25, 28 April 2014 (CET)

Sorry, I don't agree with you on that. Of course we're not 'sick' any more than a blind person or a person in a wheelchair is sick - except maybe in flu season. To quote Wikipedia: "In medicine, a disorder is a functional abnormality or disturbance." And that certainly describes us.
DSPS is the 'old' name, DSPD is lately becoming better known, as it should be. But we can live with any confusion about the name; we should rather be working for greater awareness of the disorder, especially among doctors, IMO. --Hordaland (talk) 20:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Serotonin synthesis affected by melatonin synthesis?

cf : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Comorbidity

It seems a bit unlikely that a relatively large pool (serotonin in the brain) could be affected by a small pool (melatonin in the pineal), by the comparatively modest activity of the serotonin converting enzyme.

--Pierre-Alain Gouanvic (talk) 03:52, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for tagging this. Hopefully someone will provide a suitable citation. —Patrug (talk) 05:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Severity for patients

Under Definition it says:

  • Mild: Two hour delay associated with little or mild impairment of social or occupational functioning.
  • Moderate: Three hour delay associated with moderate impairment.
  • Severe: Four hour delay associated with severe impairment.

Ok, but what is the base to determine delay? Midnight? 10pm? 2am? Or is the delay from some 'normal' wake time? What even is a normal wake time? Kind of super significant detail don't you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.11.45.37 (talk) 04:38, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The bit you quote is rather simplistic. Also, it's probably better to speak of time of (spontaneous) awakening rather than time of falling asleep. Most people can work 9-5. While many prefer it, others don't but they manage it. A job like that is quite impossible for people with even moderate DSPD. DSPD has other effects, too, such as fatigue and morning disorientation. --Hordaland (talk) 07:45, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

There is someone capable enough to write additional material, about the severety of the symptoms? This is a horrible disease, that literally makes you lose control of your life. And I can really talk about it, since I suffer from it. Symptoms like chronic fatigue, perpetual tiredness, frequent headaches, suicidal thoughts and aversion to sunlight need to be clarified as well. Cognitive problems, like memory loss, and other mental capabilities should be better explained. I haven't noticed in any point of the article the severety of the symptons being adressed properly, neither the damages that impacts negatively in the quality of life of those who suffer from it. Please, can someone fix that? There is a competent physician, expert on the subject, capable of adressing it? People like me, and others suffering from the disease, are very much in need of all the knowledge we could get from it, written with detail, from the factual sleep medicine point of view. Wagner Johns (talk) 01:32, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@Wagner Johns: Sorry to hear about the severity of your case. The article mentions most of what you talk about, especially in the section "Impact on patients", and provides numerous web links for further details. But an encyclopedia article can only summarize published information from reliable medical sources. For a discussion forum with a more-personal perspective, you might try the Niteowl mailing list, linked here and in the article. I wish you the very best of luck! —Patrug (talk) 16:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

A new study

Primary sources are not allowed as references, but I think that editors watching DSPD, Non-24 and/or Bipolar will be interested in seeing this paper Just FYI. --Hordaland (talk) 12:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

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Comorbidity for patients

I would like someone to improve the comorbidity section. I have DSPS, and it is common for DSPS people to suffer from secondary illnesses, like cognitive disorders, and somatic symptom disorders. There is anyone here capable enough to write that, please? People with the condition really needs knowledge on the subject, and could be very helpful to clarify this diseases, brought on as consequences of DSPS. DSPS, like many other conditions, never comes alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wagner Johns (talk • contribs) 02:40, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wagner Johns: These issues are covered by the second sentence of the Comorbidity section: "According to the ICSD: Although some degree of psychopathology is present in about half of adult patients with DSPD, there appears to be no particular psychiatric diagnostic category into which these patients fall."
As I explained to you a few months ago (in the Severity section above), unless we have clear published information from reliable medical sources, this encyclopedia article cannot go beyond the current state of published knowledge in sleep medicine. Our article summarizes information from 49 different references from 1981 through 2015, but you keep asking for medical information that does not exist yet. —Patrug (talk) 05:04, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
@Wagner Johns: you are correct in what you write and what you wish for, not least for study and elucidation of the comorbid "somatic symptom disorders". The study of circadian rhythms in many species has come a long way the last 60 years and the knowledge gained will be important when there are more studies on actual DSPD patients. It seems that most research on humans has used very healthy young adults, almost always young men, as subjects. That is necessary, but it is wrong to assume that interventions that successfully advance those subjects' rhythms for a few days will (of course!) work for DSPD patients and that advancing their sleep phase is all that's needed. Researchers have barely started asking about "impact on patients" (the article section mentioned by Patrug in her/his answer to you last fall).
Studies on patients, rather than just subjects, are needed. I mentioned one such study in a comment above (December 2014).
It is slow going, but nearly all mention of sleep in the U.S. NIH now speaks of "sleep and circadian rhythms" [Correction: "sleep and circadian research"]. The patient organization Circadian Sleep Disorders Network (CSDN) now has an active member in NIH's Sleep Disorders Research Advisory Board (SDRAB). That member's DSPD was accommodated at the last meeting, which allowed two other members to attend as well! CSDN is in the process of starting a patient registry; as part of registering, patients will be able to volunteer to be contacted by interested researchers. So there is reason to hope for decent information in "reliable medical sources" in, perhaps, the not-too-distant future. --Hordaland (talk) 07:14, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the perspective on future research studies. I just added a CSDN reference link to the article. —Patrug (talk) 21:38, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
(-: --Hordaland (talk) 02:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Steroid hormones and sleep regulation

I stumbled upon a cure for my DSPS by taking a combination of DHEA and pregnenolone supplementation. Since then I have been looking into the reasons why this is and found this study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23092405/?i=2&from=Insomnia%20pregnenolone

Could DSPS be related to a downregulated P450scc enzyme, i.e. congenital adrenal hyperplasia? Or low cortisol which pregnenolone raises?

The only other time I had relief was while taking the drug bupropion (Wellbutrin, Zyban) which coincidentally also raises DHEA [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.12.83 (talk) 01:17, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

I believe this has to do with pregnenolone and bupropion's effect on the nicotine receptors. I have had a similar response from nicotine after one month. I am now curious if people who have DSPS were born to mothers who smoked, therefore being born addicted to nicotine, or if they were exposed to second-hand smoke in childhood. Here's a study corroborating this hypothesis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4900537/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.92.135.187 (talk) 00:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
This page is not meant to be a discussion forum for the topic that the article is about. It's supposed to be a place for editors to discuss potential changes to the article. That said, I have a more extreme form of DSPS (Non-24-hour sleep–wake disorder) and my mother has never been a smoker in her entire life, nor has my father. I was not exposed to second-hand smoke on any regular basis during my childhood, either. Nor has consuming, or not consuming, nicotine myself seemed to make any difference to my symptoms. I have been found to have some issues with cortisol, however, such as an inverted cortisol curve and low-normal cortisol levels.
Also, just a reminder, please sign your posts to talk pages by typing four tildes (~) following your post. Vontheri (talk) 05:39, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6076352_Effects_of_Methylphenidate_and_Bupropion_on_DHEA-S_and_Cortisol_Plasma_Levels_in_Attention-deficit_Hyperactivity_Disorder

Lack of contrasting scientific viewpoints and objective assessment of disorder in article

The article on the whole seems quite biased and appears to lack objective discussion on DSPD and its classification as such by a scientific consensus. I do not mean to contend the opposite but rather point out that it is not possible to make a proper determination of the validity of the article's claims as it seems to make the assumption that the disorder's existence as such is self evident. As a result, the article is largely dedicated to describing the difficulties with which individuals experiencing the symptoms of the disorder adjust to every day life, and possible rejection of them by other individuals.

This is evident in the following paragraph:

Patients suffering from SWSD disability should be encouraged to accept the fact that they suffer from a permanent disability, and that their quality of life can only be improved if they are willing to undergo rehabilitation. It is imperative that physicians recognize the medical condition of SWSD disability in their patients and bring it to the notice of the public institutions responsible for vocational and social rehabilitation.

Sentences such as the following:

As DSPD is so little-known and so misunderstood, peer support may be important for information, self-acceptance, and future research studies.

additionally give the impression that what is lacking with respect to the disorder is not peer review or increased study from scientific communities, but rather societal attitudes in regards to people experiencing symptoms described as indicators of the disorder in question. ChonkersMcFreely (talk) 14:35, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

@Wagner Johns:
We have scientific consensus about existence of DSPD:
What "contrasting scientific viewpoints and objective assessment" would you like to see in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hon2048 (talk • contribs) 04:03, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
@ChonkersMcFreely:
It's a bit hard to pin down. But let me try to describe it in terms of what sticks out to me as a reader, and incidentally someone who relates to those symptoms being described. Going into the article, I get the immediate sense that this disorder is so strongly verified by researchers that there is no reason to dedicate an entire section to summarizing the major talking points surrounding its initial classification and validity. For example, is there any criticism of the exact nature of the current classification, or any conflicting views on the approaches taken to diagnose the disorder, or branching views on any of its facets?
Perhaps it's just the phrasing that's throwing me off. The article feels like it's written more to the point of advocating social change in light of the disorder, than to inform readers of its verifiability.
Again I must point out - I'm not putting into question that there isn't a scientific consensus. My point was that it doesn't come across that way in this article. Without visiting the citations and doing my own reading outside of Wikipedia, I feel like I'm getting a skewed picture of the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.240.8 (talk) 14:27, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ American Academy of Sleep Medicine (2001). The International Classification of Sleep Disorders, Revised (ICSD-R) (PDF). ISBN 978-0-9657220-1-8. Archived from the original (PDF) on 26 July 2011. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  2. ^ https://icd.who.int/browse10/2016/en#/G47.2
  3. ^ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5803043/

Trazodone

{{Expert needed|Medicine|ex2=Research|talk=Trazodone|reason=need medical research background|date=October 2019}} I have not been diagnosed with DSPD, but the symptoms match me exactly. My doctor agreed my symptoms also match Sleep Apnea, but a polysomnograph ruled that diagnosis out. My Doctor gave me Trazodone for my sleeping problems (and never told me what my official diagnosis was, probably generic Insomnia), and it's worked wonders for me! Now instead of 3-5 hours, I get to sleep in 20-30 minutes, reliably, every night. I wake up on the first try and never sleep through my alarms. I have not mentioned this to my Doctor because (1) I just discovered DSPD, and (2) He's already fixed my problem with the Trazodone.

I don't think I can ethically add this information to the article due to WP:OR, possibly WP:COI, and the fact that I can't find any references to back up my claim other than to say Trazodone is sometimes used off-label as a hypnotic to help Insomnia patients. But I wanted to have some mention recorded somewhere of Trazodone helping with these symptoms, at least in one case. For context, I have comorbid diagnosed ADHD which has a lot of overlap with sleeping problems because they interact with a lot of the same genes and neurotransmitters.

I put the Expert Needed tag on the talk page because I have a low level of confidence this will go anywhere, but wanted to call attention to it. Feel free to remove the tag if I was out of line or did this the wrong way or whatever.tsilb (talk) 07:34, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

IP user "fixed typo"

An IP user made a change today with this edit with reason "fixed typo". This edit removed a great deal of information. I'm not making any claims or opinions here as to whether this deleted information added to the article, or was correct or whatever, but there's no way this whole section was a "typo".

  1. If you want to remove it, please provide a better reason than "fixed typo".
  2. If you actually see a typo in this section, please only fix the typo under the reason "fixed typo". If you want to make another change in addition, either add that reason in your edit note, or make the change separately with a separate reason.

I'm WP:AGF here; that either this editor didn't mean to delete that much text, or merely neglected to include their reason for deleting it. Either way, I have undone that revision with this edit. Feel free to undo my undo if this was on purpose; I just don't think it was. I will not pursue this matter further unless someone believes I was wrong to do this. tsilb (talk) 22:34, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

...Adding justification for undo: WP:DOREVERT "Whenever you believe that the author of an edit [...] made a mistake, [...] go ahead and revert. " tsilb (talk) 22:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
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