Talk:Derry/Archive 5

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Does Derry have a serious issue with asbestos or what?

[1] - seems one of the most hotly asked questions on the city council page is about asbestos. Is this touched upon in the article? I can't see anything...(asbestos clean up is a serious matter now!) --Τασουλα (talk) 19:22, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

It is a serious matter in any town and there are strict regulations relating to it you have to worry about it whenever renovating older buildings. I wouldn't have thought Derry was anything special but someone else might know better. Dmcq (talk) 10:31, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanking you for your input. --Τασουλα (talk) 10:23, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Image requests.

I'd like to see if there's an image showing Derry in the 1800s laying around, also, I'd like to see another image representing Derry's cultural side added. Currently there's only one. ta. Additional - It seems to be the "in-thing" to include photochroms on many place articles. Additional additional - "Derry is also a fictional town in Maine, USA, used in some Stephen King novels.[37]" ~ What exactly does this have to do with the naming dispute? --Τασουλα (talk) 12:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The National Library of Ireland have 19th century photographs of Derry (link). Despite these images being out of copyright, they are marked with, "Reproduction rights owned by National Library of Ireland." That may be so in Ireland, but I do not believe it is so in the US (and consequently not so for the purposes of Wikipeidia). --RA (talk) 19:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Now that strongly makes me think of this... unfortunately. --Τασουλα (talk) 19:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Are these the images referred to in that article: commons:Category:Images from the National Portrait Gallery, London?

Their claim (and the NLI's claim) may be valid in the UK (and in Ireland) but I do not believe it is so in the US. The continued presence of their images on the Commons also suggests something. --RA (talk) 19:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

No xD I mean, I was referring to a possible situation that could arise if someone downloaded the images. Suggests that they wouldn't bother trying to take the images down? Sorry, my head really hurts right now...(no, not a hangover) --Τασουλα (talk) 20:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

It at least suggests the Foundation would not take them down. The images are also in live use in articles. --RA (talk) 20:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

O.0 OK, sounds good. --Τασουλα (talk) 20:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Something like this I think would be beneficial to the article image diversity: [2] (And yeah, looking at the site it becomes pretty obvious that their not too concerned with copyright and people re-using the images...) --Τασουλα (talk) 20:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Culture

This section will need some major work particularly with the upcoming city of culture award in 2013.

Night-life should be broadened into several categories - with the phrase night life possibly removed. It links to several recent bands, ignoring some of the major artists associated with the city. i would suggest making a historic cultural page and then a current page, similar to the rest of the article, but perhaps with a shorter timescale - say post-second world war, then 70's, 80's,90's etc where appropriate. It should include any of the notable people at the bottom of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doopa (talk • contribs) 21:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 October 2012

Londonderry was named 4th "Best city to visit" by Lonely Planet in the "Best in Travel 2013 - Cities" list. [3] [4] PeterMae (talk) 07:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. How much sway does Lonely Planet have? (And obviously 4th best place to visit as long as you aren't British ololololol) --Τασουλα (talk) 00:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done -Nathan Johnson (talk) 04:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request

Category:Derry needs to be sorted in this article like so.

[[Category:Derry| ]]

It is missing the space and currently appears under "D" in its category. --86.40.98.208 (talk) 20:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Done. Benign wiki markup request only. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 20:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Derry vs. Londonderry

Is there any reason why this article is titled "Derry" with a note in the article that the official name of the city is "Londonderry" rather than having the title be the actual name of the city and then noting it is colloquially known as Derry? Kdb1965 (talk) 12:53, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Read the note. It says it is a compromise. You could also search back the history here, on this page, and see the many many pages of arguments leading to this decision. --HighKing (talk) 13:02, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I notice that in the Category box at the bottom of the page, the UK articles this article are related to are listed before the Ireland articles. Surely to be even-handed the Ireland articles should be listed first? Should Wikipedia even be listing the Derry article as a UK article at all? I find such support for colonialism deeply offensive. This isn't the 19th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.249.183 (talk) 13:46, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Lol. Good one. — Jon C.^ॐ 14:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Derry/Londonderry is part of the United Kingdom (which is a soveriegn state), like it or not, Londonderry (which is the offical name of the city) is part of Northern Ireland (which is part of the U.K) and not the Repbulic of Ireland. The city is situated on the island of Ireland but is not part of R.O.I itself. Italay90 (talk) 23:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Does it say anywhere in this article that the city is not part of the United Kingdom? Does it say that the UK is not a "soveriegn" state? Does it say that the city is not in Northern Ireland? Does it say that the city is in the "Repbulic" of Ireland, or that it is "part of R.O.I itself"? What exactly is your point? Brocach (talk) 23:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the point he is trying to make is that if Londonderry is in the UK then the page should reflect the countries position on the naming of the city and shouldn't be for several closed minded editors to decide on the pages title to suit their own political positions. Try and discuss this issue without referring to "the census said this" every time. If not then the same issue is just going to go round in circles like it has for many years on the page.Cbowsie (talk) 16:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 February 2013

It is my wish under the freedom of information act , that you provide me with the details of how and when the decison to entitle my hometown name as Derry rather than the legally offical name Londonderry. as you will know the High Court ruled on this matter in 2007, i want to know why wikpedia find it acceptable to ignore a High Court Judgement. Can you please explain to me the process of how you came to make this alleged compromise ruling. i look forward to hearing from you on this matter . regards David Nicholl 82.132.231.82 (talk) 22:44, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

That law is inapplicable for a number of reasons, principally:

Wikipedia is base din the US not Britain

Wikipedia is not a government organization.

However to answer your question WP:COMMONNAME is the policy that governs the titles of articles. The city is more often referred to as Derry than as Londonderry even in scholarly sources. This has been discussed a number of times on this talk page and on the talk page for WP:IMOS.

I must also warn you in case you are inclined that way not to try using legal threats on Wikipedia or otherwise you will be blocked, see WP:LEGAL. Dmcq (talk) 23:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately David, article naming is based on the demographics of users who 'watch' the page. In this case more users of a nationalist persuasion watch the page and to a vote it was decided that to use the official and common name was deemed too offensive and so the city is referred to as 'Derry' on wikipedia. Don't worry though, a compromise was found whereby the county article page would be called County Londonderry instead of County Londonderry. Seems fair, right? Welcome to wikipedia, home to the easily offended. I suggest that you setup and account as that is the best way to be ignored on this page.Factocop (talk) 00:00, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

We've been through the figures quite carefully and the result is quite obvious once you discount the references to American towns of Derry and Londonderry and to the countess and suchlike. In fact the thing we're not doing which that indicates we should be doing is pointing Londonderry at the town in America, but I think we'll try and avoid doing that to try and keep a bit of peace here and anyway referring to the state as well as in Londonderry, New Hampshire is common practice in America. Dmcq (talk) 13:40, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Just so we are clear, the decision to name this page was not based on Common Name, it was based on a compromise. Common Name is the apparent reason why we can not go back and call the page Londonderry. Dmcq, lets not do this again, but stats were presented to show that Londonderry was more Common. You presented stats that present that Derry was more common. Both sets of results were probably skewed given the unreliability of search engines. Did your searches ignore the 300 odd townlands that have 'Derry' in their name, probably not, did my searches exclude Londonderry, NH, probably not. But I think I am correct in saying that the only way this page will change is if there are more users for the change to official name. But in this case more users of a nationalist persuason monitor this page and for that reason, this will never change. But like I said if elected representatives can come to an agreement to call the city Londonderry, but call the council Derry City, I thought that would of been the most logical suit to follow.Factocop (talk) 14:18, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

You are simply wrong. We went through the names carefully and Derry is the more common name for the city in Northern Ireland. Go through the returns by hand and actually do the work of actually saying whether each reference is to the COuntess or to the city in America or to the city in Northern Ireland. A decision to use Derry instead of Londonderry for the ciyy if Londonderry was more common would be simply wrong under Wikipedia policy and I for one would not support it. Dmcq (talk) 19:03, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Simply not true. You went through your results wearing 'derry goggles' and pulled out the most convenient facts, and against WP:SET.Factocop (talk) 11:28, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I do not have 'derry goggles'. You get banned because of your obsession. Now please stick with the topic like as in your handle rather than doing name calling. Dmcq (talk) 12:33, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

No name calling there that I can see. Look, I've read and followed all of the discussions on this topic, and I call it as I see it. And the consensus/compromise was skewed to appease a few easily offended users. I will not raise this issue again. (This unsigned comment is by Factocop (talk)

The lattest discussions that actually went into all this re at Talk:Derry/Archive_4#Requested_move:Derry_to_Londonderry and a more detailed look in the following request. You really do have to check what you're getting as sticking in the New Hampshire figures will mess everything up. Dmcq (talk) 19:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Surely you took into account the potential bias of the authors of those sources Dmcq? After all Irish authors are virtually always going to use Derry as are many emerald-tinted spec wearing Yanks who can't tell the difference between England, Britain and the UK - as well as not even knowing that Ireland the island is split between two different states. Google or bookworming for this issue is stupid and pointless. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:01, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

So what would you suggest would be a better criterion? Dmcq (talk) 19:21, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Let's *not* rewrite the commonly upheld rules and policies just to see if we can get a different result. And FYI, there's plenty of emerald-tinted spec wearing Yanks hailing from the six counties. --HighKing (talk) 13:11, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Population

The population of the city proper is given as 83,652 as shown in the 2012 census. While the population given here is accurate, it is not taken from the 2012 census but the 2001 census. The official 2012 population for the city itself has not yet been released. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Latentsleepy (talk • contribs) 03:55, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I have now changed this to the 2001 census figures, however the Derry Urban Area population is also wrong, even though it has three references, the figures given are incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Latentsleepy (talk • contribs) 22:55, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Subsection: Protestant minority

To state 500 Protestants remain on the westbank is wrong. There are far more. And whilst the Fountain - the Diamond ward - has the largest Protestant minority in the cityside' more Protestants (numerically) live in the Strand, Culmore and Crevagh. Thousands of Protestants, in fact. See Census 2011 and http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/catholics-outnumber-protestants-on-both-banks-of-the-foyle-1-4737478 Whether 18k left from 1969 on is unclear and the citation dubious. There were 12k Protestant voters in the cityside in 1967/8. With the age structure of NI today at 24% children, were there enough children and non-registerd voters in an unusually politicised society to make up the 6k difference. Finally, whether you date the Troubles from 1966 or 1969 popultatio drift in Derry didn't keep time. There is no evidence for it until 1972. See http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local/civil-servants-rejected-unionist-exodus-proposals-1-3018098 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.86.164 (talk) 20:07, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

That looks like a much better source than is there. The article is locked against edits by ips (people without a username) unfortunately because of arguments over it, but if you could say what you want in that section I can put it in. A source for the earlier figure too would be good too thanks. Dmcq ([[Use:

r talk:Dmcq|talk]]) 21:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. The entry would be more accurate if the statement that just 500 Protestants remain on the Westbank and that they all reside in the Fountain estate was revised. Over 2k Protestants live on the Westbank. The figures cited in the Londonderry Sentinel regarding ward populations are accurate and from the 2011 census: http://www.ninis2.nisra.gov.uk/public/PivotGrid.aspx?u=6c7d7023-6f2b-4130-9e2e-70b724da838c

It would also be more precise to date population movement from post 1971. The following sources can be cited to show there were 12k Protestant electors on Westbank in 1967/8; that 17,000 Protestants remained on the Westbank in 1971: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/proni/list-year.html Pilling, G. (1978) Note of meeting with Ross and Eames White, D. (1979) Londonderry: Population movement from Westbank to Eastbank. These documents would make much better footnotes.

I just put in 12000 as I couldn't see the 17000 anywhere nor anything about 1971 but I think it gets the gist over plus stuck in a couple of references. Dmcq (talk) 16:16, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Spot on concerning the present day situation. Regarding 1967/8 there were 12k registered Protestant voters rather than people resident on Westbank. 1971 is important as a census year and Population movement does not register in that census. The 17k can be found in D. White's note of 1979. Second last document of 1979 here: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/proni/list-year.html Thanks again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.6.247 (talk) 17:16, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay round two of it done. Dmcq (talk) 00:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Super. Much better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.6.213 (talk) 13:05, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Update

This article needs updating regarding dates — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.32.31.1 (talk) 15:49, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Which dates? Dmcq (talk) 15:39, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Northern Ireland Wiki Meetup

A Wikimeet is proposed for Northern Ireland in the next few months. If you have never been to one, this is an opportunity to meet other Wikipedians in an informal atmosphere for Wiki and non-Wiki related chat and for beer or food if you like. Most take place on a Sunday afternoon in a suitable pub but other days and locations can also work. Experienced and new contributors are all welcome. This event is definitely not restricted just to discussion of Northern Ireland topics. Please add your suggestions for place and date to the discussion page here: Proposed Northern Ireland Wiki Meetup. Philafrenzy (talk) 22:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a reminder to please add any views you may have to the project page linked above. Thanks. Philafrenzy (talk) 08:39, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

City Walls of Derry

Derry's City Walls have the most complete circuit of any walled town in Ireland. The Walls are not intact since all four of the original gates have been replaced, two bastions have been completely removed and one demi-bastion have been removed. Mark Lusby — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marklusby (talk • contribs) 07:22, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

have the most implies that the walls may or may not be complete, and goes on to explain what parts are original/still there. --Somchai Sun (talk) 21:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Renaming Article

Hello, I understand the disagreement in the naming of the city of Derry/Londonderry, however, I believe we should change the article name to the offical name of the city. The city of Newcastle upon Tyne is commonly refered to as Newcastle, however the article contains the cities offical name. I believe we should be using offical city names (Londonderry) and not those which cities may commonly be refered to (Derry). Italay90 (talk) 23:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Look up WP:COMMONNAME. Brocach (talk) 23:29, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

There sames to be a lot of confusion about what is the common name. Yes, Derry is a very commonly spoken name, but in the real world you should also realise that 'Londonderry' is also a very common name. All news channels will begin by referring to Londonderry. Italay90 you are correct with the link you gave to suggest that the likes of UK, lady gaga are more commonly used than their official names, but if you compare the amount of use of such names with Londonderry the results would be very different and Londonderry would not easily fit the page. If you are saying that the word 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' is used to the same extent as 'Londonderry' you are mistaken. The latter word is still used in everyday language whereas the former is not. Therefore I don't believe that the use of the word 'Londonderry' is low enough that it's wikipage should be called something else. Cbowsie (talk) 17:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

See Talk:Derry/Archive_4#Requested_move:Derry_to_Londonderry or just do a search of Derry "Northern Ireland" and compare to Londonderry "Northern Ireland" with Google books to get a feeling for the way the counts go. Check the actual returns to see which ones are to the county and which which to the city or to other things and how good the sources are for each. I don't believe the actual difference is anywhere near as enormous as the 6 million to 300 thousand Google books shows but Derry is definitely used far more often even in scholarly sources for the city. And that is what WP:COMMONNAME is about. Dmcq (talk) 01:43, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME is pointless on this issue as both names are common. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Let's ensure we know what the point is we are debating. As a stated I understand that 'Derry' is used a lot in common speach. I am saying that the name is not used considerably more than 'Londonderry'. What about the if you Google search for derry you will find 33million results, if londonderry you will find 24million results - still fairly common I would say. You can't call the shots for this cities name based on unreliable statistics that you can not prove represents the common use of the words. As editors we can claim we our standing by our principles on what the page should be called, if you take your politics out of your position on this, would you really still call this page 'Derry' or what its proper name is? Cbowsie (talk) 01:03, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Derry and Londonderry can refer to the tows in America. That is why I specified 'Northern Ireland' just above. There's other ones as well. Did you actually have a look at the first couple of pages you got back to check the relevance? Please have a read of the discussion at the archive. Dmcq (talk) 06:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

By the way Wikipedia is supposed to consider scholarly sources and other reliable sources more than common speech that's why I referred to Google books. I'd guess common speech depends a lot on where you are :) Dmcq (talk) 07:07, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The Londonderry/Derry town in USA you are referring to makes up only 20% of the serch results on google books and also on goggle search. Therefore with 80% referring to Londonderry, NI; I think my argument still stands.Cbowsie (talk) 22:15, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I guess you are refusing to stick in 'Northern Ireland' and counting a lot of NH ones as referring to Northern Ireland never mind county County Londonderry or the Marques as referring to the city. If you have just stuck in 'Londonderry' then on my count I get two references to the city in the first ten returns, is that what you get? What I got were:

Londonderry NH, County Derry, history of Londonderry NH, County Londonderry,

Siege of Londonderry - that's one,, Statistical County Londonderry, Londonderry celebration NH,

history of Londonderry NH, Early records of Londonderry NH

A history of the siege of Londonderry - that's two

Do you dispute that 8 out of the first ten returns when you stick in Londonderry into Google books are not about the city of Derry/Londonderry? Compare that to a books search of Derry where all ten of the first ten returns are about the city in Northern Ireland. Or perhaps you could enlighten how the statistics turned around so rapidly as to have only 20% of the returns referring to NH when 5 out of the first ten refer to NH and 3 refer to the county rather than to the city? We went through all this and in more detail at that discussion before if you would only try and look at it rather than going through the same old steps again. Dmcq (talk) 01:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Why can't Derry/Londonderry just be named "Derry/Londonderry", and do the same for county "Derry/Londonderry", and redirect "Derry","Londonderry" to the article? 86.149.42.234 (talk) 19:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

See WP:POVNAMING " Article titles that combine alternative names are discouraged. For example, "Derry/Londonderry", "Aluminium/Aluminum" or "Flat Earth (Round Earth)" should not be used. Instead, alternative names should be given due prominence within the article itself, and redirects created as appropriate." So fame for this topic, though I believe the Gdańsk/Danzig and Aluminium/Aluminum ones have actually had more people arguing over them. Dmcq (talk) 21:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

That maybe so but naming the city Derry is biased, just like naming the county Londonderry is biased, as it asserts Republicianism and Unionism respectively. Many people who live in the city call it "Derry/Londonderry" so as not to be biased, isolate themselves and to respect the beliefs of others. I do not believe naming the county "Londonderry" and the city "Derry" is equal either, as I am more prone to visit wikipedia articles of cities and not counties. The naming of the city is a political and reglious issue which, in my view deserves an "combined name" even though they are discouraged, as should, in my opinion should that of the county. Could we have a referendum on this issue? If so I believe the county and city articles should be named "Derry/Londonderry" 86.179.121.74 (talk) 00:27, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

There have been a number of polls see for example Talk:Derry/Archive_4#Requested_move:Derry_to_Londonderry referred to earlier. There is not much support for a slash name. Dmcq (talk) 00:54, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

And yet no poll is done on the county? You too seem to deem this article more important than the county and hense it is biased. I don't believe naming them seperately will help, nor is naming them one or the other. Why don't we have a consenus in naming both this article and the county article? Either keeping the current names of the articles or changing them. 82.132.217.159 (talk) 22:44, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If you look at the statistics mentioned above when deciding WP:COMMONNAME you'll find that Londonderry is the common name for the county. No-one is disputing that name so I don't see what the point of doing anything more about it. In general on Wikipedia different topic are treated independently on their own merits. Dmcq (talk) 08:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Well why don't we have a poll ? Italay90 (talk) 09:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

On what? And we're really supposed to be basing decisions on the facts and policy not on opinions from polls. Polls are for when things aren't straightforward. What's not straightforward about Londonderry County as the title for that topic? Dmcq (talk) 09:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Ingeneral, Catholic Republicans name the city and county "Derry" and Protestant Unionists name the city and county "Londonderry". If we name them "Derry" it is pro-Republican and if we name them "Londonderry" it is pro-Unionist, which is inequal. Some people may use one article more than another, hense "County Londonderry" and "Derry" may seem biased in their opinion. We should respect the beliefs of all wikipedia users and people of both the city and the county, and give them neutral name which does not result in conflict. Italay90 (talk) 09:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:NOTCENSORED is the general policy about that argument. No we don't go around respecting all beliefs or balancing things irrespective of weight. But more to the point polls have been done and that has been rejected. I'm sure there will be more in the future too but you'd need to make a much better case than that for a change. Dmcq (talk) 09:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:Neutral point of view, WP:CONSENSUS Polls don't need a good "case (than that) for change", if people decide to vote for renaming the articles to Derry/Londonderry then it should be done. Wikipedia does take a neutral point of view. 109.144.185.113 (talk) 09:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Also : "However, some articles may include images, text or links, which some people may find objectionable, when these materials are relevant to the content. Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on its offensiveness but on whether it is an appropriate image, text or link. Beyond that, "being objectionable" is generally not sufficient grounds for removal or inclusion of content. " WP:NOTCENSORED Italay90 (talk) 09:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Good, you've read NOTCENSORED about not removing stuff just because it is objectionable. And as to neutral point of view I believe I already pointed to WP:POVNAMING. Now try CONSENSUS. In particular see the bit WP:CONLIMITED about trying to go against policy "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope.", and WP:TALKDONTREVERT "In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing documentation in the project namespace. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever." Dmcq (talk) 10:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: Wikipedia is based on verifiability and references, not votes. Wikipedia is not a democracy. Strength of argument carries much more weight than X people want Y. Oh and respecting the wishes or opinions the people involved that live in a place we're doing an article on is not a factor. Canterbury Tail talk 16:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree that Wikipedia is not a democracy. Decisions on the naming of articles are based on protocols. The protocol is that the official name of a place is used, not an unofficial name. Most Americans seem to refer to the United Kingdom as England - but Wikipedia sticks to the correct name. The city is called Londonderry. End of discussion.203.184.41.226 (talk) 19:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

"United Kingdom"? Never heard of it. Do you mean the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (the official name)? Most things on Wikipedia are not called their official name. --RA (✍) 20:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Last sentence of the lead.

Question: Is Derry now the UK's city of culture? A tense change would obviously be needed if it now is (we are well in to 2013 now!) --Somchai Sun (talk) 15:24, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Derry~Londonderry UK City of Culture 2013. So still ongoing.Dubs boy (talk) 15:47, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to you and Murry1975 for seeing to this. --Somchai Sun (talk) 19:40, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Opening sentence

Londonderry should be the first word in the opening sentence as proposed in the now infamous "Compromise" [5] so are there any objections to this?

From the agreed "Compromise": "The way I set it up was to have the articles at 'Derry' and have the first word in the actual text to be 'Londonderry'" Dubs boy (talk) 12:45, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

How about just giving a good reason? If you think this place is full of POV pushers who will outvote you then what's the point of you coming here? The compromise as you call it is based on WP:COMMONNAME, you should either show that is wrongly checked or does not apply or there is a good reason otherwise to ignore it. Dmcq (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Shucks, I was only kiddin' Dmcq. I just think that the 'compromise' is quoted on this page so much that one of the strands of this compromise was to have the opening line start with 'Londonderry'. I think discussions above show that even the common name is in dispute, but if the 'compromise' is to be used to keep the status quo then shouldn't we also keep this strand also. It makes sense to call the page Derry, but have the opening line start with Londonderry as certainly it would go someway to appease some editors that sprout up every once and a while before being blasted with this compromise thingy. What do you say? Again I was only muckin' around.Dubs boy (talk) 16:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I think how it is now "Derry, offically Londonderry" sounds pretty good and says the case well. Dmcq (talk) 08:22, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The way it is now seems to give more weight to the name "Derry" than Londonderry, or why else would it be the opening word.Dubs boy (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:BEGIN "If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence". More to the point I think Derry is the more important name to mention. If you look at Dog for instance it starts "The domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris)", the official name is stuck in brackets. Dmcq (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:BEGIN is only a guideline with every page open to change and formatting as decided by the community. And for every WP:GUIDELINE there is another one that offers a contradiction.Dubs boy (talk) 13:54, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I have no objections in principle. However, I don't think it is appropriate to second guess what would "appease" other editors. Unless a sufficient number of people who are unhappy with the current article title put their weight behind the idea, I don't think it is worth tinkering with a tender box. --RA (✍) 10:16, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with the two chums above. How about a nice cup of tea pint of Guinness? Anyway, changing it either way would have no fundamental effect on the article. Pretty pointless. And r.e no "vote" please. Urgh. --Somchai Sun (talk) 10:58, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I think its an edit that should go in. If we are to enforce the long serving "compromise" in the naming dispute which often is put to frequent passers by curious as to why the page isnt called 'Londonderry', then in this case it should also be applied otherwise the 'compromise' carries no weight in further discussions.Dubs boy (talk) 12:31, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I believe that 2004 talk page you pointed at carries no weight. Dmcq (talk) 12:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Where did this compromise come from then and why is it constantly used as an excuse for no change(see every naming dispute discussion above)? To use Derry as the opening, gives more weight to that name than of Londonderry, which is not neutral.Dubs boy (talk) 13:09, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

You're the only one talking about it that I can see. Dmcq (talk) 13:23, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

What are you wanting anyway? A concrete proposal is always better, something like "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain, is..."? Dmcq (talk) 13:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I propose as laid out in the original compromise that the opening sentence begin with "Londonderry, commonly known as Derry" or derivation of that, to add neutrality to the article.Dubs boy (talk) 13:54, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Whats the most neutral way? Alphabetical? Its Derry first. Which name is older? Its Derry first. Which turns up more search results? Its Derry first. Murry1975 (talk) 17:29, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I would of thought neutral would of been in keeping with the long standing consensus? No? Some would argue that Londonderry was a completely new settlement on the waterside but that is another can of worms. I think many have argued on the front of search results, neither side was able to prove the reliability of the results. The only solid strand is the long standing 'consensus'. And as argued before, the consensus hasnt changed.Dubs boy (talk) 17:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

"would of thought neutral would of been in keeping with the long standing consensus"? Then why are you trying to change it? Murry1975 (talk) 17:54, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not trying to change the consensus, I'm simply trying to enforce it. The consensus was to call City "Derry", County "Londonderry" and for the current article to open with "Londonderry". That was the consensus. So no, not changing, simply applying it fully.Dubs boy (talk) 20:05, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

It's difficult to successfully argue for the change based on a Talk page comment that's nearly 10 years old, and one that hasn't raised itself since then. But. I think as a suggestion, it's certainly worth discussing and like others, I'd support it in principal. So far, I haven't seen anything to suggest it's a bad idea. --HighKing (talk) 18:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Its more than just a talkpage comment. This is "the" consensus. This is the comment is the reason why the page is called 'Derry' and has remained relatively stable since, though digging through past discussion this "consensus" is quoted a lot when discussing the naming dispute. So to disregard it now in this case would trigger a need to change the page name back to "Londonderry". Dubs boy (talk) 20:05, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

No - you're making the mistake of treating a Talk discussion involving 3 or 4 people as a legal treaty that should be enforced in it's entirety, or not at all. In reality, the compromise is exactly what it is today, and has been quoted as such ad nauseum "Derry for the city, Londonderry for the county". You also neglect to give weight to the fact that the article has had the same opening lede since 2004. If this was truly against community consensus, it wouldn't have remained as such for 9 years. My advice to you is that you're not going to convince anybody by diving in on each comment made here. You'll just drive people away from the discussion. Let others discuss and see what happens. If it gets momentum, a change might happen. --HighKing (talk) 17:25, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I only raised that conversation as a another user MO AIMN quoted it in one of the many past discussions, and it seemed enough at the time to convince another discerning user to go away. I would add that the conversation did lead us here and to a certain amount of enforced stability, so it wasnt a bad suggestion, just not a very evenly weighted one. But as it stands its not really neutral, and I can't think why anyone would want to relegate "Londonderry" further.Dubs boy (talk) 18:06, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I like the current sentence, it starts with the article name rather than confusing the reader using a different name straight off them explaining the article name. Canterbury Tail talk 18:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

There was no consensus established in that 2004 talk. Even if you thought it had any relevance nowadays it in fact showed that putting a different name first caused trouble and there wasn't any agreement. I in fact am happy to just be counted as neutral on this even though I think the current phrasing is better, I don't feel strongly enough about it to care overmuch so if more people would get rid of their bees in a bonnet I be happy with that.

Then you go on again about not showing Derry is more common in reliable sources. I see that you were saying the same thing a year ago and were saying checking for relevance to Northern Ireland in the search wasn't standard, so you were counting references to Londonderry in New Hampshire and references to the county as referring to the city to get the numbers to be comparable. I guess you'll pursue the same course again but as a small thing could I just ask you to stop going on about [6] as establishing some sort of compromise on the wording here? Just go with the straight proposal on its current merits. Dmcq (talk) 18:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Obviously the original compromise was not with out its flaws, Offering "Derry" as city name, and "Londonderry" as County, when the County name was never in dispute was a bizarre trade off. It makes sense here to use Derry as city name then and Londonderry in opening to give both names prominence.Dubs boy (talk) 20:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

"...the County name was never in dispute"??? You must pop up to County Derry sometime, Dubs boy. Brocach (talk) 22:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Where's that? Anyway near Narnia or Nevereverland? Well if its encyclopedic facts were dealing with here then, yes County Derry was never disputed because it never existed.Dubs boy (talk) 22:14, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The whole thing is flawed, but as a compromise it works to a degree. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

To a degree yes, but in terms of this page, it gives more prominence to "Derry" than to "Londonderry" so by having the opening as "Londonderry" would go some way to addressing that. As it stands neutrality is a side thought to stability which is fair given the number of edit wars here but it still needs to be addressed. Dubs boy (talk) 12:20, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Not to be impolite, but trying to tinker with a near non-issue seems like a bit of a fruitless task. The article has been stable for ages, and changing it around would be something of a "token" gesture at best. The compromise was certainly not bizarre btw as Wikipedia works on consensus, and many obviously want the other article named Co. Derry, not Londonderry, regardless of any historical usage/naming. --Somchai Sun (talk) 15:21, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Not at all but naming the County "Londonderry" as some sort of compromise was an empty gesture as the County has never been called County Derry. Remember that this is an encyclopedia, not a blog. The article has been stable, thanks to this long standing compromise though, the number of users who have queried this long standing consensus probably by now outweighs the number who currently support it, and have been fobbed off. But the consensus was based on the Derry(City) = County Londonderry + Londonderry(opening to this article). As it stands the current status gives more prominence to "Derry" which was not the original agreement. Hence why I feel the need to raise this issue. And as you can see yet another topic has been raised on the naming dispute so this is constantly ongoing.Dubs boy (talk) 15:45, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

County Londonderry is a different article. This article is about Derry. No 'compromise' is needed because of the 'County' in the name of the article. Dmcq (talk) 20:36, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

So what exactly is the compromise or consensus in place that is keeping the article stable and everyone so happy? Over the years I am sure there are as many people who have queried the consensus and been told to "do one" against those who support the current consensus. So obviously the article is heavily weighted towards "Derry" which isnt justified.Dubs boy (talk) 21:09, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

You are the one who keeps talking about some compromise. How about just trying better at justifying putting the official name rather than the common name first? The talk page you pointed at indicted doing what you say might cause confusion because it doesn't correspond with the usual rule of WP:BEGIN. Dmcq (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

The current page is based on the original compromise made 9 years ago. Common name has been quoted as the reason why it has remained the same though recent discussions have shown that no one has been able to prove which name is more common. Mabuska pointed out that there are 300 odd names in Ireland with "Derry" in them yet no searches seem to eliminate them nor the "Londonderry" in North America. So to prove either name is more common is ludicrous. What is funny is that WP:BEGIN does use the example of Mumbai and Bombay, where the official name is used first. Nice work DMCQ. As it stands the article opening is not neutral. That is what we should try and change not keep the biased. Dubs boy (talk) 12:23, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

It is quite easy to show which is the common name, just look at #Renaming Article above for instance and it was done more thoroughly a year ago with the same conclusion. You can see there the way the references were checked to see if they actually referred to the city or not. I doin't see why you refer to Mumbai, yes it used to be called Bombay and that used to be the common name but if you do a quick check you'll see Mumbai is now considerably more common. Dmcq (talk) 12:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Anyway if you can show Londonderry is the common name then you have good grounds for changing the title of the article and there would be no problem with changing the first sentence. Are you actually disputing common name or not? If you are then go for renaming the article. If you are not then just go with trying to get Londonderry first in the sentence as being the official name. Dmcq (talk) 13:08, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Dmcq, surely the title of the topic is a hint as to what I am suggesting. As for Mumbai,I simply referencing the guideline that YOU brought up. I've read the discussions previously and see no overriding argument that shows that either Londonderry or Derry is more common. Can you point me to the exact edit? I think User:The C of E God Save the Queen! put it best in reference to the city "One is official and one is slang in referring to a city that was destroyed in 1608." Also the sources you refer to, were they historical sources discussing Ireland in the 1500's for example? did you remove Irish government sources who refuse to acknowledged anglicized names, did you remove the 300 instances of townlands that have "Derry" in their name, or did you simply check the first 2 pages of the search results? I know the page title will never change given the pov of the users watching the page, but I do think that their is an element of users here who would like to see some encyclopedic logic applied , so "Londonderry" should be the opening to the lead as it would add neutrality as first suggested in the original compromise.Dubs boy (talk) 13:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I didn't exclude references from books produced in Ireland otherwise your objections were all met. You were in the discussions a year ago and refused to look at the evidence then. Did you even look at the section #Renaming Article above I referred to? It would already have answered some of your questions. Dmcq (talk) 13:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Anyway shouldn't you be coming up with some half way decent argument of your own if you want to change things? What is your evidence for your beliefs? Dmcq (talk) 14:01, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

So your response is sending me to a redirect of a redirect to a conversation that still doesnt show anything. How did you remove the 300 instances of townlands with "Derry" in their name? This is a new discussion, a new topic, and they need new opinions and new evidence, present it here or go away.Dubs boy (talk) 14:00, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Dubs boy - it seems to me that this discussion has failed to get any momentum, and we're going round in circles with the same old rehashed discussion. Honestly, I can't see anything here that hasn't been said before. And it is considered disruptive to continue to rehash this same discussion over and over. --HighKing (talk) 14:19, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

You are right HK. I am disappointed. I really am. The page as it is, is not neutral, and gives more prominence to the outdated/slang name over the actual name. This is not encyclopedic regardless of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:BEGIN. A real shame.Dubs boy (talk) 15:06, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, let's close this so. --HighKing (talk) 15:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Move to close. Though 1 thing I will do when I find the time is count the number of users who have questioned the status quo over the last 9 years just to see how many people disagree and agree with current format as it is not evenly weighted. I'm off now to the "Istanbul" page to see if i can get "Constantinople" reinstated as the name of the city by fixing google results and filling the talkpage with bureaucracy.Dubs boy (talk) 16:36, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Just adjust your figure to include socks, then remind yourself that Wikipedia is not a democracy nor a bureaucracy. Murry1975 (talk) 18:11, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Its not an encyclopedia either. It may not be a democracy but how then are discussions resolved if not by democratic means? This page seems to use Democracy in the Mugabe sense of the word. Serious question though, When I'm counting socks, do I only count socks who have used their other accounts here or socks in general? I'm actually going to count this.Dubs boy (talk) 19:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Err...socks? O_o --Somchai Sun (talk) 19:38, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I would say that the suggestion I posted was per WP:IMOS as you can see here [7]. So anyone who wants to question the validity of my suggestion or the "compromise" I am referring to, which has apparently no bearing on today, yet is quoted in IMOS, must be leading a life of contradictions. So I will make the change per IMOS guidelines if there are no further objections?Dubs boy (talk) 20:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Just don't. Firstly you are misreading that 2004 talk page. Secondly that there was some agreement back in 2004 has no bearing on anything nowadays. As to counting people who have complained on this page about the name compared to those who have come along saying what a wonderful idea it is, people normally come to the talk page because they want to change things rather than just talk. The only reasonable measure is the one you get by doing a WP:RfC and each RfC in turn becomes the new standard. Dmcq (talk) 21:19, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

How am I misreading it? If it has no bearing why is it quoted in WP:IMOS? OK, since the conception of the "compromise", how many users have disagreed with it and been told to move along? how many of those users are likely to come back at the very point that an RFC is open? Some rfc's don't even run the course of 3 days. So many users on this page have quoted IMOS a reason to keep the status quo, so for any of them to turn around and demote it would be hypocrisy at the highest level of Elysium.Dubs boy (talk) 21:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Not to discredit IMOS, but the user who seconded the proposal has been blocked for Socking. Just typical. IMOS: born from socks and argued to death by socks.Dubs boy (talk) 21:38, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

As it says at the top "Please limit discussion to improvement of this article." Have you something to say which might lead to a change? Dmcq (talk) 22:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

you didnt answer my question. How did I misread the discussion? The edit improves neutrality and it is per IMOS. I'm sure some the IMOS experts will back me up here.Dubs boy (talk) 12:35, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

The bit pointed at says as the last contribution

That would make sense. The way I set it up was to have the articles at 'Derry' and have the first word in the actual text to be 'Londonderry', which struck me as a typical Northern Ireland compromise - that way both sides could claim primacy. ;) However, this then resulted in someone moving both articles to 'Londonderry' without a change in the wording, then someone copy-and-paste moving it to 'Derry' and making it clear in both articles that Derry had primacy. Morwen 18:03, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)

What that says is that originally they set it up the way you wanted but that it was changed to the current way and they are saying that what is there now makes sense.

Even if it had supported you though it has no force nowadays because RfC's have come and gone in the intervening period and the article has been around in pretty much its current form as far as this is concerned for the last nine years. You need an RfC on this matter to change it. Yes the IMOS says that was the original basis. It is not the current basis. Notice the "and has been generally accepted as a convention for both article titles and in-article references since then". Dmcq (talk) 13:17, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Here [8] is the article that they agreed with. The opening sentence could be changed without violating IMOS as it does not specify the order of the names - but the support you were giving was not in fact support for your case and going on about common name would widen the remit to the title which is covered under IMOS. Dmcq (talk) 13:22, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you drunk? Where in that sentence does it say that what is there now makes sense? Morwen is discussing an edit war. And you saying it took them 2 months to apply their consensus to the page? Here is the edit [9]. Try harder Dmcq. Also it makes no sense to have Derry in the official namespace of the infobox. Another inconsistency adding to the uneven weighting of the terms. Dubs boy (talk) 13:49, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Do not make personal attacks against other editors as you did above. Comment on content, not editors. Canterbury Tail talk 14:33, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

And it doesn't help your proposal when they've already told you they wouldn't oppose the proposal if it was put to a poll! Dmcq (talk) 15:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I misread the month. No I am not drunk. It looks like it was changed to the current form again shortly thereafter. The IMOS as I said does not specify the opening sentence, it refers to the titles and the references so it has nothing to do with the opening sentence. What does cover it as I said before is WP:BEGIN and the many years since then when the current wording has stayed there. You'll still need an RfC to change the opening sentence otherwise there would be an edit war just like back in 2004. 14:30, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I see you did a WP:BOLD change to conform with your views. Please don't try and change it again without getting an agreement using an RfC. I see you are already aware of WP:TROUBLES. Dmcq (talk) 15:19, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I see it differently - that edit was disruptive and POINTy, and you knew it was against the community consensus. --HighKing (talk) 16:37, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I concur. No more edits like that, please. --Somchai Sun (talk) 19:01, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

ok, ill ignore IMOS, but I was simply showing that the conversation carried merit as it is quoted in IMOS though obviously that is not enough for some. Question: if Londonderry is official, why is Derry in the official namespace of the infobox? This page is ridiculous.Dubs boy (talk) 20:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

To answer Dubs boy's comment on my talk page more properly here: your edit does not meet IMOS in any way at all. Also if the article is to be called "Derry", if you were following IMOS why did you remove "Derry" from the infobox? Even disregarding IMOS why did you remove it when it is a common name for it in the English language alongside Londonderry?

Also whilst I would prefer Londonderry to be at the front in the lede, at least the way it is before your edit has Londonderry stated as being the official name, yours didn't. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:51, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I answered your question in my last point. Derry is not the official name so why include it in the infobox in the official namespace. You can bring a donkey to water. Also no one has been able to prove commonname.Dubs boy (talk) 21:25, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

So you're back to just flatly denying the evidence given without going to the trouble of doing any work to back up your belief. I think this quote from when you were here last and blocked in Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive772#Blatant_sock covers that:

Totally uninvolved having actually read through that morass of a RM, I can only conclude that you, Dubs boy, have been unable to effect a change in consensus and are continually arguing the same point over and over again. Even in the face of info digging by a couple of the editors there which showed that the statistics is against your proposal, you nonetheless continued to flog the same carcass.

You haven't raised an RfC for the change you said you wanted despite repeated requests and been shown that it is necessry for such a change. I think my WP:AGF is quite exhausted. Dmcq (talk) 23:28, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I stopped assuming good faith when I was hounded off wikipedia for 4 months. Ill raise an RFC just as soon as I figure ot out again. Dubs boy (talk) 00:07, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Poll on renaming "Derry" and "County Londonderry"

I believe that Derry and County Londonderry should be renamed to "Derry/Londonderry" and "County Derry/Londonderry" in-order to take a neutral stance on the ongoing conflict in Northern Ireland. Although this name may be a combined name which is discouraged in wikipedia, it allows a neutral and equal stance on issues concerning political and religious beliefs in Northern Ireland. This poll is for both articles, and will be conducted on this Talk page (a link may be found in the County Londonderry Talk page). This poll is on whether to keep the names Derry and County Londonderry respectively, or rename both articles "Derry/Londonderry" and "County Derry/Londonderry". I am for renaming both articles to "Derry/Londonderry" and "County Derry/Londonderry". Italay90 (talk) 09:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Just a couple of questions first,

"take a neutral stance on the ongoing conflict in Northern Ireland", really? Thats not even a neutral stance on the present situation in NI.

Discouraged? Its not used.

Derry/Londonderry? Londonderry/Derry? Which is neutral?

Looking forward to your replies. Murry1975 (talk) 10:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Ongoing conflict? Give us a break. New York has a far higher murder rate and it is pretty good by American standards. In fact NI is slightly better than the UK or ROI average. Dmcq (talk) 10:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please be respectful. "Derry/Londonderry" seems to be more populour than using "Londonderry/Derry" but neither is "more neutral". Calling the city Derry is biased? By ongoing conflict I'm refering to the political and religious devisions in the city and in Northern Ireland, (I personally have been to the city). Dmcq said it is discouraged. How is naming "Derry/Londonderry" not neutral? Many media companies and even people in the city, county and across Northern Ireland call it "Derry/Londonderry" which is far more equal than naming it Derry or Londonderry. Italay90 (talk) 10:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no real conflict in Derry now. The disparity there is now such that if anything many nationalists are now coming round to wondering about how to support unionists and not endanger their traditions there. Dmcq (talk) 11:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

It is still far more convient for both sides. Also, it may be more convient when searching "Derry" or "Londonderry" on a search engine. Why should it not be changed? It respects the beliefs of both Catholics and Protestants, rather than slandering them with what wikipedia calls "equality" and "neutral" which is not strictly true, also, you should not generalise an entire city. Italay90 (talk) 16:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

"'rather than slandering them "WP:SOAP. Nothing new being put forward, just personnal opinions and views of proposer. Swift close needed. Murry1975 (talk) 16:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: Wikipedia is based on verifiability and references, not votes. Wikipedia is not a democracy and polls aren't a deciding factor and decisions are not based on them. Strength of argument carries much more weight than X people want Y. Oh and respecting the wishes or opinions the people involved that live in a place we're doing an article on is not a factor. Canterbury Tail talk 17:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

So, just who takes it upon himself to decide on the "strength of argument"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.23.68.184 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 7 July 2013‎

Please sign your contributions by putting ~~~~ at the end. See WP:DISPUTE for the whole business about disputes and WP:RfC for a common one and WP:CONSENSUS about consensus on Wikipedia. Basically there are normally enough people around more interested in trying to improve Wikipedia rather than just using it for their own propaganda. However if some group does manage such a straight biased vote locally it often will be escalated to a wider audience and the people involved are liable to have their other edits checked, quite often such people are found to be WP:sockpuppets trying to corrupt Wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 10:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Anybody who gets "offended" or feels they are being "slandered" by the naming of this article need to reevaluate their priorities in life. I'm deadly serious. I don't see any compelling arguments, and don't understand why the OP doesn't want to regard WP policy. Put it to bed. --Somchai Sun (talk) 21:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

If Wikipedia is based on reference and verifiability, why not refer to the city's charter to verify that its name is Londonderry, and nothing else? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.14.119.20 (talk) 14:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The city obviously has two names, with Derry being the one used here. There is nothing non-factual, non-pov or policy violating about the article title. --Somchai Sun (talk) 18:32, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed it does. One is official and one is slang in referring to a city that was destroyed in 1608. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

OK...? --Somchai Sun (talk) 18:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Follow Canis lupus familiaris and you'll get to the article about dogs. That's how most people refer to them in reliable sources. Dmcq (talk) 17:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

When searching Londonderry on Google "County Londonderry" is the first result, which is pretty misleading (searching County Derry comes up with County Londonderry). Italay90 (talk) 11:33, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Anyone who says that Derry is named Derry not to please Catholics/Republicans and County Londonderry is not named that to please Protestants/Unionists is wrong. The cities official name is Londonderry and UK cities use official names on wikiepdia than popular slang ie. Newcastle is called Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Hull is called Kingston-upon-Hull, so rather than avoiding what is blatantly obvious and completing ignoring the troubles of Northern Ireland (which in-case you are not aware of did not end until 2007) is in denial. Militant groups like the IRA and UDF still exist and so I believe that the article should be renamed something fair and equal despite your rants that the article is OK at present. Even so, many people seem to be in denial of the OFFICIAL name of the city, we don't call Stoke-upon-Trent Stoke do we? I personally am Protestant and see no fairness in naming the city Derry and county Londonderry, it's inconsistent and misleading, people may think Londonderry and Derry are different places? Italay90 (talk) 11:50, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

How about starting off in a small way by telling the Apprentice Boys to rename themselves and that they're really marching round the walls of Londonderry. [10] is their web page to contact them. Dmcq (talk) 13:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Lol. --Somchai Sun (talk) 14:22, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Then call it Derry/Londonderry and keep everyone happy? Your argument against me is pretty poor, you can name the city what you want and I respect your beliefs but respect the beliefs of others too, just because you call it Derry doesn't mean that's its name, a lot of people call it Londonderry too, so rather than making this article a piece of biased rubbish, maybe we should call it fair, as wikipedia says take a neutral point of view in issues like this, I feel "Derry/Londonderry" is more equal to the city of "Derry" and county of "Londonderry". Italay90 (talk) 10:53, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

You keep ignoring the argument and trying to put your own views across - you call me biased at yet DERRY is used commonly by Republicans and LONDONDERRY by Unionists, it is biased naming it one or the other? Give me one reason to show that naming the article Derry and county Londonderry is not biased and I would happily stick with these names. Also try give a decent response to what I say rather than ignoring what I have said because I am right, Wikipedia isn't some piece of Republican/Unionist propaganda. SO if it isn't biased, why shouldn't the city be Londonderry and county Derry? Please explain how naming them two biased names somehow makes them neutral rather than one name which is neutral itself? Italay90 (talk) 11:01, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:OFFICIAL Italay90 (talk) 11:10, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

"Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." Italay90 (talk) 11:13, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

"Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) in the box of Topic-specific conventions on article titles." WP:ARTICLE TITLES Italay90 (talk) 11:21, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

What makes "Derry" a more commonly used name than Londonderry? Italay90 (talk) 11:25, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Your question was answered in the section #Renaming Article. Derry is the name more commonly used in reliable sources for the town and County Londonderry is the name commonly used for the county. And both of those are by quite a good margin. Dmcq (talk) 11:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

By the way if you ever want to actually run a poll have a look at WP:RfC. You would really need to make a far better case if you want to convince people to overturn WP:COMMONNAME. There's been quite a bit of argument over the years about the name and editors are reluctant to change anything in this area for fear of sparking edit wars as some people have strong feelings about the subject. Personally I would like to see a bit of peace and quiet for a while and then perhaps some of the restrictions about referring to the city in WP:IMOS could be relaxed. Dmcq (talk) 12:09, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Well why can't you respond to my "case"? I'd like your response to what I have said. Also the sources chosen could be deliberately biased towards naming the city Derry and county Londonderry, some do it vise-versa. If you wish to criticise what I say at least have some decency to reply to all of it. It could easily be argued that Derry/Londonderry is used significantly in many sources as well - which are nothing to go by in my opinion. Yes, some have strong feels for naming it Londonderry as well, yet the article remains Derry. I am doubtful about these so called "edit wars" as the articles already have biased names (so shouldn't they be happening now)? Italay90 (talk) 12:19, 11 August 2013 (UTC) You are almost suggesting to leave the article as it is because it is easier to maintain, which is a lie. Lots of wikipedia policies clash with the Common Name one, so which do we follow? Italay90 (talk) 12:21, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

You could argue that Londonderry is the cities common name, and let's face it, we can't prove either is  ? Italay90 (talk) 12:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Some people could say Bombay is a more commonly used name for Mumbai, which it may be, but Mumbai is the cities official name and is used frequently enough for the article to be named as such. Derry is in no way an official name, only the cities historical and common name (like Bombay). Italay90 (talk) 12:34, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

So someone might have biased the returns of Google books searches on "Londonderry Northern Ireland" and "Derry Northern Ireland". I at least am going to follow the advice in Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Dmcq (talk) 12:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Surprised this discussion has lasted so long and is still ongoing. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Italay, but Wikipedia doesn't use "official names", which is why we have Ivory Coast, Burma and Republic of Ireland, among countless other country names, as article titles. Incidentally regarding your points above, having lived in Stoke Upon Trent for several years in the 1990s, I can reliably inform you that there is no such city. The city is Stoke on Trent and it consists of six towns, one of which is Stoke Upon Trent. The real centre of the city though is Hanley. Most locals by the way, refer to the town and city simply as "Stoke" and internally refer to going to the city centre as "going to Hanley", where you'll see signs saying "Stoke 2 miles >." Valenciano (talk) 20:21, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Italay, Wikipedia doesn't use common name or official name. It uses the name decided by the POV of the greater majority of editors involved in the article. In this case you've chosen the wrong page. To call the County, Derry/Londonderry would be wrong and historically incorrect, so no support here.Dubs boy (talk) 12:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

1. You selectively chose Stoke-on-Trent, what about Kingston-upon-Hull? 2. Yet you may argue Londonderry is more common, or County Derry ? But the articles have separate names!? Merge them for the sake of neutral point of view or select one name, whether it is Derry or Londonderry depending on which one is more "common" (because we all know commonness can be measured). Yet you ignore NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW which wikipedia suggest when in a talkpage. Italay90 (talk) 16:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

YEt more on the name

I note (Nov 2013) that on television reports by the BBC, interviews, both natives and MPS, the name "Derry Londonderry" was used. Has there been a change inthe official guidelines? 95.148.205.59 (talk) 08:43, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I think that was just the name of the brand used to describe the city when it was the UK city of culture. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:36, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Since the City of Culture thing the stroke city style Derry/Londonderry has been used quite a lot more this past year in various fields. Still doesn't make it official in any way. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The official name of the city and county are Londonderry, named 400 years ago - the majority of the current population would like to delete the work that the London people did to build the city, due to the actions of more recent British forces, but that is driven by hatred and racism. There's no place in Wikipedia for changing facts based on emotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.243.242 (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Using the name Derry to describe the historic city of Londonderry in Northern Ireland simply renders Wikipedia an unreliable source of factual information. The city is officially called Londonderry and has been for over 400 years. The consensus policy operated by Wikipedia whereby the city is referred to as Derry instead of Londonderry simply undermines Wikipedia as a credible source.

Credible source for what? It has always been commonly called Derry over the past few hundred years back to when Londonderry was founded, even by MPs in the Commons. Do you want the full name of the UK put in as the title for its article? It is Wikipedia's policy to use the common names of topic for titles rather than official names Dmcq (talk) 17:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The commonly called argument is a major fallacy considering both Londonderry and Derry are common names for the city and county. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:29, 24 January 2014 (UTC)