Talk:Doomed Megalopolis

Character name

The characters name is Keiko Tatsumi, not Keiko Mieko.

Keiko Tatsumi accurately displayed the characteristics of Kwannon;

- She was kind, but headstrong when it came to doing what was right, to the point of disobeying her husband (practically unheard of in early 20th century Japan).

- She had an uncommon ability to endure the harshest suffering with the deepest patience, far more even than a "typical Japanese woman."

- In accordance to the legend about her which says "her kindness turned a hell, into a heaven," it is Kwannon's kindness which overcomes Kato's evil, not outright combativeness.

In short, it seems to me that the author created the character Keiko from commonly known characteristics of Kwannon throughout Japan and other parts of Asia.

Starting to ramble here, so let me get to the point; what the enlightened state of Nirvana is in Budhism, is a person's "true form" according to the religion. Immortality, mystical abilities, ultimate knowledge beyond all physical knowledge, is said to be, in both Budhism and Daoism, the "true natural state" of a human being. In other words, Keiko, "godess" or mercy or not, is fully human.

Ultimately, the story is about Japan abandoning traditions and, in accordance to shinto religion, mideval Japanese becoming angry at their descendants.

Here is the overarching message of Doomed Megalopolis; what makes modern Japan what it is, a cultured society with high education, very low crime, and a high quality of life, are largely due to old traditions which kept that society together through turbulent times. The modern people of Doomed Megalopolis scoff at those traditions, and the suffering their ancestors had to go through in order for modern Japanese to enjoy the comfortable lives they did even in the early 20th century. Basically, 20th century Japanese are ungrateful brats and the angry ancestors from feudal era Japan are ticked off spirits out for revenge who chose Kato as their representative. That's really all it is. A poignant message for the Japanese people not to forget their traditions, but ultimately irrelevant to us westerners.

Think about Japanese history; for most of their history up until the Meiji restoration, Japan was not a good place to live. Indeed, for most of their history their neighbors in Korea, China, and other parts of Asia saw the island as a den of brigands, thieves, and lowlives. Condescending stereotypes to be sure but, compared to China, for a long time Japan was the ancient equivalent of a third world country. Also, for much of that history, generation after generation of Japanese struggled hard (often unsuccessfully) so that their children would have better lives. They did not succeed until the 19th century, during the Meiji restoration and later on, western style modernization.

It is a tendency for many modernized Japanese to not respect old traditions. Japanese traditionalists point out that the ancestors of modern day Japanese suffered a lot so that current Japanese could live the way they do now. To disrespect old traditions is, in essence, to disrespect them and what they fought for. In Shinto religion, this is a very bad thing. If you are a follower of Shinto, disrespecting your ancestors is something that IS NOT reccomended.

Also, I don't think Doomed Megalopolis was misogynist at all. Given the time period, the women in question acted with realism to spare. Now, Keiko was strong because a spiritual duty rested on her shoulders. A duty that was, to calm the anger of the neglected ancestors of the Japanese people. The rage and fury at the ungratefulness of their descendants in fact, is what gave the demon Kato his power. Kato was an unbeatable foe throughout the series not because of "Budhist pessimism" as is the acusation, but because, well, those ancestors had a right to be pissed.

Imagine working 18 hours a day since age 11. You work even harder so that your own children don't have to do that. You are a loving but strict parent, decidedly non-abusive in any way, and yet when your children grow up they give you no credit at all for their success. Your grandchildren scoff at your family traditions, even though it was your traditions which allowed you to survive 18 hour work days, and what allowed your grandchildren to have comfortable lives. Your grandchildren then proceed to tell you your traditions are worthless, and not relevant to modern times. How would it make you feel? Outraged? Betrayed? Now multiply that feeling by several hundred million, and let that symbolism give you an idea of how powerful the demon Kato actually was. Kato was evil, but, the thing is, his power was fueled by people who had EVERY RIGHT to be angry, that is why even Hirai, Japan's most powerful Onmyogi, was powerless against him. In other words, only the godess of mercy, a being of near infinite compassion, could calm the rage of the ancestors of the modern Japanese who, in not being acknowledged by their descendants, obviously felt deeply hurt. That kind of pain could only be healed by the Bodhisatva of compassion.

And that, whoever is reading this, is the message of Doomed Megalopolis.

I must admit that in order to understand it you have to have at least rudimentary knowledge of Japanese culture and, more importantly, spiritual beliefs. Two, based on that knowledge, you have to fill in A LOT of the gaps yourself, which makes for some rather unentertaining viewing.

Ultimately though, the best way to enjoy this is by reading the novel in the original Japanese.

J holz 21:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC) Thanks for the fascinating article. Doomed Meg is one of my favourate anime's. I havent read the novel, realistically, unless my lifestyle changes to grant me a LOT more free time then nor am I likely too. Through past exploration I happen to know a little bit about Budhism and maybe that helped me gain a grip on the film... whats more, reading a lot of articles such as this has shown me the anime from different angles. I wouldnt want anybody to be put off watching Doomed Meg by talk of it's inacessibility... In my opinion, it's a great anime which works on a lot of levels and remains entertaining after even several views.

[[User: Voilodion}} Thank you my friend for that interesting little response. Guess what? The section about "sexism" was bogus anyway. I knew that the story had more meaning than that (it wouldn't be my favorite anime in the world for any other reason). Anytime someone brings up a subject about the subordination of women, there's always got to be a huge rebuttal coming in from left field. This, my friend, is what I was looking for. I just put it there it there to provoke individuals like you into coming along and debating/sharing some of your interest in the story. I'm a Westerner and I can neither read nor speak Japanese. Yet I strongly feel that "Teito Monogatari" is one of the best fantasy/historical stories ever written, PERIOD.

On the other hand though, the article you wrote just basically reflects everything I figured out about the story through repeated viewings of both the live-action version and anime and lots of trips to Wikipedia. It took me four years to break off the obsession with this tale.

I just wish you and I could spread the message along to more anime fans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.30.179.64 (talk) 10:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

"A poignant message for the Japanese people not to forget their traditions, but ultimately irrelevant to us westerners."--Anonymous

Voilodion (talk) 16:29, 5 October 2009 (UTC): I don't agree with that statement. This message could easily be applied to any culture on the planet which evolves and changes dramatically over the centuries. It's a humanitarian message not limited to East Asian folks. You consistently sound like you're trying to make this story less significant to a Western audience and devolve it into just a political message from Japan to Japan. That's absurd. Sure that may be the central theme or the premise of the story, but ANY story can start out with a central theme or premise and evolve into something much more . Do you think C.S. Lewis wrote The Narnian Chronicles JUST to teach kids about Christianity? If the novel was just intended JUST for an esoteric audience, why the hell then would The Narnian Chronicles and the works of C.S. Lewis be even half as popular as they are, even among non-Christians? Are you telling me that the ONLY audience that Robert E. Howard was writing for were people who worshipped the Gordian Knot story? What about students of history or anthropology? Let me remind you also that Aramata translated some of REH's books to Japanese--he's very familiar with Western fantasy. Or how about Shakespeare? Are you telling us that Shakespeare is completely "irrelevent" for us because it was mainly written for the Elizabethan theatre? Are you going to attack me for daring to inspect Teito Monogatari from a Stoic or Christian perspective? Maybe next time, I should go to the Harry Potter discussion section and write a frustrated argument about how that story is NOT intended for students of Japanese culture because it's so immersed in Western culture and thought, and that it's "ludicrous" of them to think otherwise?

You may understand where Aramata started with Teito Monogatari, but I don't think you understand what the story means to people outside the Japanese circle. Personally I think it's a great epic tale of tragedy, courage, change, etc. featuring one of the best villains in literature or film.

BTW, we were both wrong. Her maiden name is Keiko Mekata. She doesn't receive the name of Tatsumiya until after she's married.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Channel Four

This was televised by Channel 4 in the UK in the mid-90's. I'm not sure that it's been televised anywhere else, so perhaps that's worthy of mention? Kelvingreen (talk) 20:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge discussion

It has been suggested that Teito Monogatari be merged into this article as it is a very small article which would help expand this article. Additionally, Teito Monogatari is the work on which this one is based, though this one is much more well known. Please note that this is not a vote, but a discussion. Please indicate below whether you Support or Oppose this suggested merge, and please include a detailed explanation of why. This discussion will be open for one week from when this discussion began. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support as nom. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose, a shocker for me I'm sure, but in this case I think a merge wouldn't not be appropriate. Though Teito Monogatari is a stub, the novel is notable enough to stand on its own. The OVA was the last adaptation based on it, with three films coming before it. Two of those are discussed in a decent length in the book "Flowers From Hell: The Modern Japanese Horror Film." Tokyo: The Last Megalopolis is mentioned in several other books on Japanese cinema and horror films as well. Teito Monogatari is also discussed in some magazines/journals, and I suspect more off-line sources could be found. Rambling made short, with it having at least four adaptations based on it, I do not think it would be appropriate to merge the novel into a single one of the adaptations. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
  • What about a merge the other way? This article isn't anything great itself, though it is larger than the other one. That's why I originally suggested the merger this way. I think this article could certainly be trimmed. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Hmm...that might possibly work, though this one seems to have enough notability to also make this into a decent, though maybe short, article. There are reviews about it for a reception section, adn a few news article for at least the licensing and basic info. Not sure production info is available, though I'd need to check some of my offline books (currently packed up in a box somewhere). I'd like to see work done to fix this one up first, to see if it can be made into a decent article before considering merging it back. It definately needs the plot trimmed and the excess non-free images removed, but not ready to call it unsalvageable. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Not being terribly familiar with the storyline, is there a lot of difference between the two? If not, then merging this one back into the the other would only server to help expand the other as the plot would be similar enough to be valid for both. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
  • From what I can tell, this is a tough decision. Based on the current state of both articles I think they should be separate. It seems that Doomed Megalopolis is but one of many adaptations, or derivative works, of Teito Monogatari, yet it is also a notable anime movie of its own. The problem is that there aren't really any other derivative works mentioned on the Teito Monogatari page, so it would be sorta odd to only have this derivative there.

Couple this with the fact that people will search for Doomed Megalopolis and end up on the Teito Monogatari page if we combine them. Sounds like a bad idea all around. Cross linking seems to have the least problems associated with it.

Furthermore I have noticed that the prevailing convention here is to have separate pages for the mange and anime. Something to the effect of

This article is about the first film adaptation. For material on the philosophy of the Ghost in the Shell universe, see Ghost in the Shell (philosophy), for other adaptations see Ghost in the Shell.

the above section was added by me while I was accidentally not logged in Floodo1 (talk) 03:27, 17 July 2008 (UTC)