Talk:Funeral (Lil Wayne album)

Genre content dispute

As I explained to AshMusique at their talk page, the user who changed "rap" to "hip hop" did not do so with the rationale that "rap" is not a genre, and I was merely undoing a long line of edits by what is clearly a genre-warring-only account, but AshMusique seems to have used their edit as an excuse to misrepresent as leverage to remove "rap" from the infobox, based on their own point of view and nothing more. This remains AshMusique's point of view, unfounded in reliable sources, cited at either this article or Hip hop music itself. WP:ONUS does not apply here; AshMusique's original dispute was removing the genre altogether because they believe it is a "style" of music and not a "genre", the distinction of which is reflected where??. They ignored my past advisement to start a discussion, so I will do it for them because sometimes we must simply carry out the burden ourselves...

According to what is cited (to reliable sources) at Hip hop music, along with other scholarly sources I presented to them in a past edit summary, "hip hop" is also known as "rap" (as is stated in the opening sentence of that article), and "rap" is a genre. WP:STICKTOSOURCE continues to support my revision as well; the source cited says Funeral is a rap album. The onus remains on AshMusique to disprove or invalidate my line of reasoning, supporting sources, guidelines, etc. isento (talk) 14:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Here are several reputable books that say "Rap music is a genre". And here are a few more. isento (talk) 14:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Pinging a few of the other more frequent contributors here for comment: @TheAmazingPeanuts:, @Robvanvee:. isento (talk) 14:53, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

AshMusique apparently is not interested in communication about this dispute, again blanking my messages to them about this. Perhaps they merely want subservience to their point of view... isento (talk) 15:03, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Isento:, I might have misinterpreted the other user's edit summary, and I'll own up to that and apologize. I wasn't aware they were engaging in genre warring, however their sole edit here makes a point. Regardless of what thier intention were, your content was challenged. I insist that "rap" is not suitable as being referred to as a genre here. Yes it is a genre, yes, the album is rap, but not in in the context that you are using it. The article you cited (Hip hop music) states the following inline quote in its first, and this is what is being referred to as "rap is a genre": "Rap, musical style in which rhythmic and/or rhyming speech is chanted ("rapped") to musical accompaniment. This backing music, which can include digital sampling (music and sounds extracted from other recordings by a DJ), is also called hip-hop, the name used to refer to a broader cultural movement that includes rap, deejaying (turntable manipulation), graffiti painting, and break dancing. Also, the article Rapping states the following cited content in its lede: "Rapping (or rhyming, spitting, emceeing, MCing) is a musical form of vocal delivery that incorporates "rhyme, rhythmic speech, and street vernacular", which is performed or chanted in a variety of ways, usually over a backing beat or musical accompaniment". This backs up the point I was making, as a rebuttle to the books you cited. I did not engage in continous edit warring with you and even stated the other day that I'll step back from reverting. Perhaps I should have started a discussion, but starting one wasn't of high necessity, so labelling me incompetent is a reach in that regard. And I don't mean to cone across as hostile, however I will blank messages on my talk page if I deem them to be of a false nature. AshMusique (talk) 15:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I am not interested in you "owning up" or "apologizing". You are still suggesting a musical style means it is not a genre, that they are mutually exclusive, which remains your novel interpretation unfounded in the single online encyclopedia source you refer to, and no such "rebuttal" to the various high-credential sources I cited, which any editor worth his or her salt will give weight to over a Wikipedia editor offering little, if not nothing. Your energy from the start was hostile, even if not explicitly stated as such, so there is no need to qualify your intentions at this point. Perhaps I should blank out your above remarks then, if that is the kind of communication you are advocating, no? isento (talk) 15:57, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Morning guys. Super chuffed this finally came to the talk page as the repeated reverting was getting a little ridiculous but let's try be as courteous as possible . I deliberately kept a low profile on this yesterday as I hoped the 2 of you would iron out your differences on this issue. The other reasons I stayed away was because I don't want to get involved in a dispute I have very little interest in and I don't want to be seen choosing sides between 2 very prolific and experienced editors who clearly both have the project and specifically this article's best interests at heart. I spent some time going through featured (Hip hop) articles, there are not many sadly, and found that the term "rap" is rarely used in terms of a genre description. However, as can be seen on the Hip hop music article: "Hip hop music, also known as rap music"...and as can be seen on the Hip hop article: "While the term hip hop is often used to refer exclusively to hip hop music (including rap)"... Personally I don't see the 2 as mutually exclusive. That's also because I grew up listening to what was commonly called rap and the term hip hop came a little later. If I were to see an album article described as "rap" I tend to think hip hop anyway. Unless their is a broad consensus previously reached (I did spend some time checking talk page archives) that I am unaware of I would be open to using both terms to describe the genre, but I have also been ridiculously incorrect in the past and should this go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force (which might not be a bad idea to get more input) my thoughts may be shot down immediately. Bottom line from my side: I am open to both and would rather not see an album described by a reliable source as a rap album, listed as a hip hop album as that goes against the WP:STICKTOSOURCE policy. Ash, perhaps the genre task force is the best route if this response does not satisfy, as I said, I do not want to get between 2 great editors. Robvanvee 08:05, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I agreed with Isento on this issue, I know hip hop music is also known as rap music but the source explicitly stated that the album is rap, not hip hop. I say keep it what the source says. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 05:38, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree that the genre listing of 'rap' for a few reasons. Firstly, as stated above, rap is a style in which the music is conveyed. Yes over time the words have been used interchangeably with hip hop to mean the same thing. However, the problem is there is only one source listed for the genre. I could if I wanted to find a dozen reputable sources that correctly list the genre for this album. It seems rather pedantic to argue over it so I do not have an issue as to whether it's rap or hip hop listed. However, it does not seem in line with other album pages to have this listed as 'rap' I think going forward to either legitimise this edit, more sources further confirming the importance of 'rap' should be sourced. Otherwise listing the genre of an album as the style of words conveyed is wrong. Like 'drums' or 'singing' is not a genre for example. That's just my thoughts though, I'm not correct. Callan992 (talk) 22:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

That's really silly. Both rap and hip hop are rooted in their etymology as a stylistic conveyance of the same genre. See Hip_hop_music#Origin_of_the_term. Hip hop is an onomatopoeia for the rhythmic cadence that originally featured in the music. isento (talk) 04:36, 9 August 2020 (UTC)