Talk:GAA

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

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GAA (disambiguation) → GAA — I am requesting this be moved to GAA, as there are several common uses of the acronym 'GAA' and that the disambiguation page should be there. Several, including 'goals against average' are more common than 'Gaelic Athletic Association', which is regional in its usage. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 22:36, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Strong support per WP:PRIMARYUSAGE is not the Gaels. 70.29.212.131 (talk) 04:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

* oppose - the statistics below (the within wikipedia statistics) show that 90% of the people entering GAA in the text box stay with the Gaels, which by WP:PRIMARYUSAGE supports its being a primary topic! --John (User:Jwy/talk) 04:42, 16 June 2010 (UTC) withdrawing opposition (see my comments below). Will wait until I see new statistics before considering switching to support. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 20:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

The traffic statistics you quoted only show views of GAA. At least that's what it says on the page. Where does it say 'entered from the text box'? As I've mentioned before, you would always get a high ratio of GAA to disambig, as the various club articles did not disambiguate their own links to the Gaelic Association. I've changed the articles to not do the redirect, going directly to the Gaelic. The hits for GAA would go down and a more valid comparison could be made. Although I'm not sure that it is even relevant. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 20:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

If you see that traffic stat after I changed all the redirects, (look at this month) there was a big drop in the daily traffic to GAA. There's now been a spike as we are discussing the page. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 21:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

One of my assumptions (mentioned somewhere I discussed it) is that there WASN'T such a cleanup of GAA redirects. This is the first I've heard of it, so I'll reassess based on that (although, reading more carefully, I see Gnevin mentions it below - sorry). --John (User:Jwy/talk) 21:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I only did it this week. May is pre-cleanup. I found approximately 100 articles that did not have a Gaelic link, only a GAA link. So I pointed those at Gaelic. To me, that's a cleanup, as you shouldn't just have acronyms, you should have the full name. But even then, I've not cleaned up all the articles to the point where it was [[Gaelic ...]] (GAA) which I think is best. There were too many. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 22:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have absolutely no problem that it was done, its just that the assumption that there were no (article space) links into GAA was a key in my logic. That meant (almost) _ALL_ of the hits on GAA were from the search box. If thats not the case, my logic doesn't work. Doesn't mean the conclusion is wrong, just cannot be "proved" that way. It will be interesting to see how the statistics fare now that it IS the case. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 05:47, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Gaelic GAA is primary usage, the page has been like this for 7 years Gnevin (talk) 07:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:GAA and WP:IE have been informed Gnevin (talk) 07:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I do agree that it being this way for 7 years counts for something. But, I think it has lead to lazy editing in the Gaelic club articles. They should have linked to the Gaelic association page, not the redirect. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 14:32, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I informed wp:sports, wp:hockey and wp:disambig. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 22:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I disagree with the notion of the "Gaelic GAA [being the] primary usage". In what region? There are several hundred million Americans who might first think of (or search for) goals against average (in a variety of sports, not just ice hockey). Nor is it relevant that the page has been like this for 7 years. JHMM13^(Disc) 17:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree about the last 7 years not being relevant, but the key group, the people that came to Wikipedia looking for GAA, appear to be content with it according to the statistics. Less than 10 per cent of the people who entered GAA appear to be looking for something other that the Gaels. . . --John (User:Jwy/talk) 20:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support Since there are varying degrees of disagreement over what is the "primary usage" or "most intended search result" for GAA, have it redirect to the GAA (disambiguation) page and let the user make their own choice. Done. — MrDolomite • Talk 18:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

but we should talk first about the disagreements. Why are YOU disagreeing? --John (User:Jwy/talk) 20:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support Hockey fan / science nerd here - one's target shouldn't be assumed, between the Gaelic Athletic Association, goals against average, and acid alpha-glucosidase - there are three main targets in my opinion. The disambiguation page is a logical place for GAA to point to. Canada Hky (talk) 18:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The statistics don't seem to support that. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 20:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if you've got that right. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 20:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

There are a lot of conflicting statistics down there. To me, that would mean it isn't clear cut one way or another.Canada Hky (talk) 21:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, how can we assume that the page hits that GAA got and were redirected to Gaelic Athletic Association means that the user was 'happy'? Generally, when I get the page I wasn't intending to find, I just search again. The fact that GAA had x number of hits doesn't mean it is the correct setup. Canada Hky (talk) 21:37, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I can tell you I have done that probably over 100 times, typed in GAA assuming it would take me to Goals Against Average and end up at the wrong page. And I am only one person. How many other people from North America where its heavily used for goals against average have also done the same. -DJSasso (talk) 11:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support While it may appear that most of the links to the existing redirect are intended as links to the Gaelic Athletic Association, those links are too self-selecting to be a valid measure of primary topic.

In other words, when someone decides to link to "GAA" and finds that the initialism is a redirect to the athletic association, which isn't the intended target, they, or another editor who notices it, are likely to change the link to point to the correct article, with a pipe. However, if the intended target is the Gaelic association, then editors would see no reason to correct it, and therefore over time, the only links that actually point to the redirect are ones that would have pointed to the Gaelic Athletic Association in the first place, meaning that the linkage and click-through statistics for the redirect are horribly skewed in it's favor. Therefore we cannot use them as a valid measure of primary usage at all.

Instead, we must turn to the broader language, and as the Google statistics below show, if anything is the primary meaning is acid alpha-glucosidase. Generally, though, when in doubt, point to a disambiguation page, which is exactly what is proposed. oknazevad (talk) 06:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)\

• Support GAA is clearly not overwelmingly used for the Gaelic Athletic Association. Its a very heavily used acronym in a number of areas. There is no reason it shouldn't be the disambiguation page. People looking for the Gaelic Athletic Association will still get to it via clicking on the link on the dab page. So nothing is lost but something is gained. Not sure why there is even opposition to this. Makes no sense to oppose this. -DJSasso (talk) 11:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose GAA as Gaelic Athletic Association has been fine for many years and if you look at the current disambiguation list none of these stand out (in fact I've never heard of any of them). Bjmullan (talk) 12:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly what I'm saying - none on that list are primary - we've got two that are well-known and several unknowns. So the GAA should be the disambiguation. Your argument is only "let's not change things". This requested move is not about that. It's about deciding on the merits of what should be on the GAA page. It's not been debated before. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 14:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting but it seems to me Bjmullan is saying he feels Gaelic Athletic is primary and he doesn't think the others are primary. Not that none of them are primary. Maybe he could clarify the point? Tameamseo (talk) 16:50, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Gaelic Athletic Association is primary, I have never heard of any of the rest. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Bjmullan (talk) 21:48, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I had never heard of Gaelic prior to this discussion, therefore it cannot be primary. Funny how this argument works both ways. Resolute 21:51, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is and funny how it has been fine for 7 years. Bjmullan (talk) 21:59, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Not really. It just means that nobody took the time to investigate whether this is the most accurate target until now. Do you have any argument other than "I like it this way"? Resolute 22:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The current one (the one for the last seven years) seems like primary usage of this acronym and most likely to be linked for by the acronym. Tameamseo (talk) 16:50, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

  People in North America would say Goals Against Average is the primary usage. This is sort of the point. There is not a clear cut primary usage. -DJSasso (talk) 17:11, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

  I would also say that you should not say 'seems like' in terms of primary, if you oppose. That's the 'support' argument. That it is not certain. Maybe one, maybe the other, but not like one is the 80% world-wide English use of GAA. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 17:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Honestly, had never even heard of the Gaelic Athletic Association until this debate. While that would be the primary usage of the abbreviation in one part of the world, it most certainly is not in another. To claim that either "Gaelic Athletic Association" or "Goals Against Average" or any other link is the primary usage of this term is a nationalistic argument with no basis in policy. As such, there is no obvious primary usage, and GAA should simply be a disambig page. Resolute 19:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support I think that Goals Against Average is a more common usage in North America I have typed in GAA several times expecting to go to the Stat page, and like others here I had no idea that it also stood for Gaelic Athletic and I have to admit that I thought I had mistyped or something. So sine there is a debate about what GAA means, disambiguation page is the clear answer. Another example of it would be AHL for most North American sports fans they probably think immediately of American Hockey League but Australian would think of Australian Hockey League and Science minded people think N-Acyl homoserine lactone so that's why AHL takes you to the disambiguation page, I mean isn't that the exact same situation?--Mo Rock...Monstrous (talk) 20:29, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support This debate clearly shows that there is no definitive primary topic and GAA should be the disambiguation article. —Krm500 ^{(Communicate!)} 00:09, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
• Support No definite primary topic. Should default to a disambig page. --Michael Greiner 18:32, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

There was a preliminary discussion at Talk:GAA. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 22:36, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

--- copied over from Talk:GAA ---

This page is a redirect to the disambiguation page as there are many GAAs. Please leave it as this redirect. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 14:58, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Gaelic Athletic Association is the primary usage . It's been like such for 7 years Gnevin (talk) 07:43, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

There seem to be other valid examples of GAA. Why force persons looking for those terms to have to go through the Association page? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 15:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Because like BBC it's the primary usage Gnevin (talk) 17:46, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Never heard of it before visiting this page. Where is this GAA known? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 18:54, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I ain't going to read the article and convey its meaning too you. Gnevin (talk) 19:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

You're -promoting- this organization beyond its relevance. This GAA is just one of several meanings of the acronym. On what basis have you decided it is the primary usage? It is not like GAA has no other prominent meaning. Goalkeepers win or lose trophies based on their goals against average, worldwide, in several sports. Possibly even in the GAA. Who's got the best GAA in the GAA? :-) ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 19:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

A simple google will show that it the primary usage.[1] I gave up after 12 page of looking for goals against average. Also on the bases that it was like it was for 7 years Gnevin (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually a simple Google search reveals the Wikipedia entry for Goals against average to be the 12th result. JHMM13^(Disc) 17:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I believe that the Gaelic does not dwarf the other uses of GAA. That's all I've said. There are significant other uses of GAA, if not more significant. There is no 'way-in-the-front' 90% of usage of GAA out there. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 18:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Compare this - a google of "Gaelic Athletic Association": 204,000, versus "goals against average": 18,700,000. That would be the opposite of your search. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 19:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

And GAA is a non-specific search, -- it gets all sorts of GAA result from non-gaelic sources. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 19:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

But we are discussing the primary usage of GAA not Gaelic Athletic Association or goals against average and Goals produces 338,000 not 18,700,000 [2].

Anyway open up a RM if you think I'm wrong Gnevin (talk) 19:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

More results:

Using advanced search on Google:

• "Gaelic Athletic Association" --113,000
• "goals against average" -- 408,000
• "Gay Activists Alliance" -- 47,000
• "Generic Authentication Architecture" -- 6,280
• "Global Action on Aging" -- 10,300
• "Acid alpha-glucosidase" -- 1,050,000

This places the Gaelic association third. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 19:43, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I ain't getting into a google of with you Gnevin (talk) 19:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not pushing for GAA to point to goals against average, only that GAA is more properly a disambiguation page, based on world-wide English usage. I sincerely believe that is the best use for the acronym here on Wikipedia. I don't believe it in any way diminishes the Gaelic association. All articles should not use the [[GAA]] link, but should use the appropriate disambiguated meaning. Then wikipedia doesn't have to do a redirect, and a 'mouse-over' of the link at least shows the meaning of the acronym. So, there is no reason for anyone to 'hold on' to the acronym. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 19:54, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

A quick look at the wikipedia usage statistics seem to point against a change (IMO): The GAA page got 2225 hits http://stats.grok.se/en/201005/GAA (those people went to Gaelic Athletic Association). GAA (disambiguation) had only 174 hits (http://stats.grok.se/en/201005/GAA%20(disambiguation)). My interpretation is - since the only link to the dab page is from the the Gaelic Association page, more than 90% of the people who entered GAA were "happy" they got there and less than 10% clicked on the dab page. That would (to me) mean that the current set up is correct. (as a side note: if consensus supports the current setup, the dab page should be formatted to reflect that the association is the primary topic). --John (User:Jwy/talk) 22:55, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Hang on - just looked at the history of GAA and see it has NOT been pointed at the association so this interpretation is off. Investigating. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 23:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused. Last month, did GAA redirect to Gaelic Athletic Association? The history of GAA would seem to indicate it did not, but I'm not sure if I'm reading it right. And if it did not, I don't understand Gnavin's edit comment of "been like this for 7 years." Help! --John (User:Jwy/talk) 23:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it did last month. Gnevin is correct about it having redirected to the Gaelic Athletic Aassociation page for the last seven years. However, as far as I understand it, alaney2k changed the redirect to the disambiguation page recently and then put in a request for a speedy deletion of the redirect to allow the disambig to be moved here. Alaney's redirect change was reverted back to redirect to Gaelic Athletic Association. However (may have been more reverts or other edits I didn't see in between here) someone then deleted the page and the move was made only to be reverted back to the original redirect by Gnevin. The original redirect page's history going back seven years now appears to have been lost due to these events. By the way, I suggest copying your comment to Talk:GAA (disambiguation) as it appears that alaney has opened his requested move there. Tameamseo (talk) 23:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

There were three occasions where people changed the redirect to point to the disambig page and Gnevin changed them back. I probably followed the wrong procedure. The requested move is probably what I should have followed from the start. Those stats that were mentioned probably just capture people going from Gaelic club sites to the GAA site, as the links all used the acronym rather than the full name link. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 23:42, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I restored the edit history of GAA. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. After a cache burp or something, I see it. It looks like it did redirect to the association for most of the time. My analysis would seem to stand (crossing out history questions). The only way to get to GAA (disambiguation) was via Gaelic Athletic Association. Less than 10% of the people who went through GAA chose to go to the dab page. No article currently links to GAA, so unless there has been a cleanup recently to switch links from GAA direct to the association, the only way to get to GAA is by entering it in the search box, so I still think the association is the primary topic. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 00:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Alaney2k changed 100's of redirect all of which went to Gaelic Athletic Association not anything else as far as I can tell [3]. To me this is more evidence of Gaelic Athletic Association as primary usage Gnevin (talk) 07:53, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

No all that points to is the fact that people noticed it pointed to one location and stopped using it or fixed pages that were incorrectly pointing to a redirect that went to the wrong page. That still does not show that GAA is most commonly known as an abreviation for Gaelic Athletic Association. In order for it to be the primary subject, the majority of people must automatically think of the Gaelic Athletic Association when thinking GAA. Which is clearly not the case. In fact I would be hard pressed to find many people in North America that even know what the Gaelic Athletic Association is, but they would be able to immediately tell you GAA is goals against average. As such the primary use of GAA is not even remotely the Gaelic Athletic Association. Remember we are a world encyclopedia, not a regional one. As such since there is no worldwide primary use of the term it should be a disambiguation page. -DJSasso (talk) 14:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

As I was saying above, I suggest you present your comment at Talk:GAA (disambiguation), and indeed any other editors their for/against comments, as that's where alaney was oopened a move request. Tameamseo (talk) 00:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.