Talk:Glossary of the French Revolution

Ci devant nobility

The glossary now goes on a bit about "Ci devant nobility": perhaps this merits an article rather than merely a long glossary entry? Also, I'm not at all sure I agree with the claim that "The term is rather derogatory, and typically used by people hostile to the nobility." In Napoleonic times, there was a certain cachet to being ci devant nobility: as I understand it, the snobs rated these titles more highly than the newly minted Napoleonic noble titles (all at least nominally connected to territories outside of France). To be a ci devant nobleman meant you were the real thing. - Jmabel | Talk 08:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, perhaps this is a posterior usage, with a reverted meaning. I am currently studying the French revolution and, as a French, I have heard much about it (what with national pride and all this nonsense), and I have never heard about a positive meaning of "ci-devant", either during the Empire or any other period. I am positive that the first apparition dates from 1790, and had a derogatory meaning. As a quotation, we can observe the famous song "Ah ! Ca ira, ça ira, ça ira", sung by the revolutionaries. A reference is made to the "ci-devant comte" who is now "quite mute", because, well, the Revolution made him shut his aristocratic mouth. Also, there is this famous expression from the time of the Revolution, les ci-devants de Coblence, Coblence being the town where many exiled aristocrats had gathered to plot against the Revolution. This designation was, of course, derogatory, and meant to stress the fact that these exiles where just bittered traitors who clinged to titles no longer legitimate. As for the difference between nobility from before 1789 and from after 1805, the term Noblesse d'Empire ("Empire nobility") is often used, and has a derogatory meaning, even today (for people who care about nobility, that is). But, apart from the generic Vieille Noblesse ("Old Nobility"), I have never heard of any positive term applying to before-1789 nobility. Tovarich1917 13:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I did some web searching and this page, in French indicates that even before the Revolution, ci devant was used as a descrition "des personnes et des choses dépossédées de leur état ou de leur qualité", ("of people and things dispossessed of their station or quality"). Between that and your comments here, I more and more think this deserves an article. Would you agree to us shortening it down a bit here, but covering it more comprehensively elsewhere?

For what it's worth, here is a passage from The Scarlet Pimpernel, in which Baroness Orczy uses the term certainly without disparagement. Similarly, this passage from Joseph Conrad's The Rover. The negative connotation may be stronger in French than in English. - Jmabel | Talk 04:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I had found this page too, after posting my reply, and with it I discovered yet another sense of "ci-devant"... So yes, I would agree to shorten the entry in the glossary, which really is a bit long, and to co-write an article on the term.

About the references you gave, the second one seems to confirm the definition given by "Les guillotines", which is, I think, the "broad" definition, in which "ci-devant" is an adjective, with a mainly juridic sense. The first one uses the "narrow" definition, where "ci-devant" is a noun metonymycally used to refer to this nobility "dispossessed" by the Revolution. The negative connotation would not be absolute in french, especially when used today, in an historical sense ; but at the time, it would be mainly used by people hostile to the nobility, who were willing to stress the fact that this nobility had been "dispossessed", and was thus no more. Of course, people from the nobility who were willing to keep their titles would not use such a term, as it would be a recognition of their defeat... It seems quite logical.

But I would not rule out the possibility of a later inversion of meaning and an "appropriation" of the term by the old nobility, under the Empire or the Restauration, so as to put the emphasis on the fact that they were Ancien Régime nobility, and that they had been persecuted under the Revolution - that they were, as you said, "the real thing". I have never heard of such an use, but then again, while I am quite sure about the use of the term under the Revolution, I cannot say so regarding the Empire or the Restauration. So, it may very well be that we are both right, but are not speaking about the same era. That would be a perfect compromise, now wouldn't it be ? Tovarich1917 20:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that you are exactly correct that during the Revolution, the term was used entirely as a term of disrespect, but that later it was (at least partly) reappropriated. - Jmabel | Talk 00:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The new article is at ci-devant. You should certainly take a look. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

2007-02-6 Automated pywikipediabot message

--CopyToWiktionaryBot 23:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The guillotine

Included today because that term did originate during this revolution (although the idea for this machine came earlier). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.47 (talk) 19:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)