Talk:Goryeosa

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Requested move 20 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn with no prejudice against further requests upon changes to WP:NCKO (non-admin closure) Quadrantal (talk) 22:33, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Goryeosa → Koryŏsa – WP:COMMONNAME (ngram) and WP:NCKO (this is a pre-1945 concept, so McCune–Reischauer is preferred. This is a secondary argument to common name, either way) 104.232.119.107 (talk) 23:02, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Putting here to make visible for moderator, withdrawing request, per below. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 15:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There doesn't seem to be much difference between the usage, and WP:NCKO notwithstanding, McCune–Reischauer is not used much for pre-1945 topics (nb Goguryeo, Baekje, Silla, Balhae, Goryeo and Joseon, all in RR). — AjaxSmack 19:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree with MR not being used much for pre-1945 topics. English-language academic literature on pre-1945 Korea overwhelmingly uses MR; style guidelines for most major journals mandate the use of MR. You're pointing to Wikipedia articles, but precedent isn't everything.

WP:NCKO and MOS:KO have been pretty behind the curve for a long time, and are often poorly followed. I've been spearheading a number of changes to both; I've got a queue of proposals in mind, one of which is on the naming of Goguryeo, Baekje, etc. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 04:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I'm suggesting that ngram is missing out on spellings used in academic journals. Basically every paper about pre-modern Korea uses MR; that overwhelmingly suggests common name. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 05:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"English-language academic literature on pre-1945 Korea overwhelmingly uses MR..." RR was only invented in 2000, so naturally any source before that wouldn't use it. A parallel would be Mandarin Chinese pinyin that came in to wide use only after 1979/1982, but is nonetheless used in Wikipedia for pre-1980s topics. — AjaxSmack 16:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – WP:NCKO specifies pre-1945 names that should be romanized using MR. Goryeosa is not a name of a person and therefore, it doesn't apply. This is not the appropriate venue to discuss changes to the manual of style for Korea-related articles. If you wish to standardize the romanization of Korean words and phrases using MR, you are free to address this issue at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean), reach a consensus, and update the naming convention accordingly. Motjustescribe (talk) 05:03, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arghhg this is another issue with WP:NCKO though. "Names" in that header is vague, it lists scope as more than just people names; it says "Personal, organization, and company names". Does that include works or is it strictly limited to people, organizations, and companies?

The reason I'm criticizing NCKO here is because people are trying to point to a standard that's poorly written and defined. Yes, I'm going to propose changes and will get consensus. I've already been doing so (I'm one of the IP users on the talk page) 104.232.119.107 (talk) 05:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I generally agree that it is poorly written, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it. Adopting McCune-Reischauer for everything pre-1945 won't solve all the problems because there is continuity between premodern and modern names. For example, Chŏnju during the Joseon (or Chosŏn) dynasty is still Jeonju—just romanized differently. The fact that the Koreas are divided doesn't help either, as they use different romanization systems. So Korean romanization is divided diachronically and synchronically.

Anyway, the cart shouldn't come before the horse, and these decisions should be in keeping with applicable guideline and policy (see WP:RMCIDC#Determining consensus). I suggest this move request be closed without moving and be reopened once the naming convention has been updated. Motjustescribe (talk) 13:04, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear I'm not suggesting we ignore it. IMO nothing I said contradicts NCKO, which funnily is the issue: NCKO is too vague.

Latter paragraph is fair enough. I'll withdraw the nom for now and reopen later. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 13:37, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If WP:NCKO calls for MR for these types of topics, it has not been implemented for years as my examples above show. — AjaxSmack 16:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.