Talk:Head of state

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July 13, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted
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old comments[edit]

I think the pictures look much better with black borders. When they are alone, they look all boring, and merge with the text.- user:J.J.

Borders are not generally used in modern layout. The general view is that they look clumsy and as if they are are cut out that was pasted in (which is what they used to be, namely a blank square to which an image could be added). The standard method is generally to leave them out if at all possible, because they are not needed and look like a pre-modern computerisation stick'n'paste job. They also shift on some browsers, causing major problems that can be avoided on their removal. Their absence leaves a much cleaner, less amateurish and less pre-computerisation looking page, as well as avoiding browsers problems, which is why they are being removed. STÓD/ÉÍRE 11:33 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC) BTW many browsers (eg Safari) are designed not even to show them, because they are generally viewed as something that really shouldn't be shown if at all possible.


Quite apart from the grammatical/vocabulary problem ("when vocabulary duty's to be done, to be done"), I think "Though the governor-general may fulfill many of the roles of a head of state, s/he is not a head of state themselves, but the representative of the head of state" needs tidying up - for instance, this is not true of Australia. But I don't want to improve the Australian side of things at the expense of accidentally misrepresenting how it is elsewhere. So, before I jump in with both feet, I want to offer other experts the opportunity to get it better expressed than I can myself ("be 'umble, Uriah, be 'umble"). PML.

Actually it is. The Governor-General of Australia is not a head of state, a fact agreed by all sides in the republican debate; from the pro-monarchist side and former governors-general to Malcolm Turnbell for the republicans. The Queen of Australia is the Australian head of state, the Governor-General her representative. FearÉIREANN 17:46, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You have been misinformed. It is universally agreed by republicans here in Australia that monarchists and others have agreed with them on this sort of thing. Only, they deceive themselves (or are trying to manufacture a spurious consensus on something that would affect the substantive discussion). You will get a better view of what monarchists really think from the published statements of David Flint, and of independent views from the statements of Harry Evans (Clerk of the Senate). Monarchists are always having to stop this line being put out in media releases from our public service. Please note, I don't want to assert the truth of either position but to find a form of words that notes the unresolved ambiguity instead of buying into the spurious consensus. PML.

No. Actually I am 100% certain. This is my main area of expertise and I have extensively researched it. In doing the research I consulted among others

  • 2 Professors of Political Science in Australia
  • 2 former Governors-General of Australia
  • read documents by both monarchists and republicans
  • read the reports of the Republic Advisory Committee
  • spoke to the Attorney-General's office
  • spoke to the Prime Minister's office
  • read the Australian constitution
  • oh and, also spoke to constitutional advisors on Commonweath and Australian affairs to her Majesty the Queen and was supplied with factual information by Her Majesty's Press Office.
It is the likes of that that the monarchists have to pull up, before their views become accepted as established; you cannot take that as an authority (any more than either the monarchists or the republicans). PML.

All are 100% agreed (from Malcolm Turnbell to George Winterton to Sir Ninian to the Queen) that NUMBER 1: The Governor-General is not the Australian head of state, never has been.

NUMBER 2: The Queen of Australia and no one else on the planet is the Australian head of state. There not one iota of doubt. It is a 100% rock solid certainty.

But then Chapter 1, Part 1 Section 2 of the constitution does state that
A Governor-General appointed by the Queen shall be Her Majesty's representative in the Commonweath, and shall have and may exercise in the Commonwealth during the Queen's pleasure, but subject to this Constitution, such powers and functions of the Queen as Her Majesty may be pleased to assign to him.

The Governor-General fufils many of the functions and duties of a head of state but is not one. He is, to use the word of the above section, the "representative" of one. And if today an ambassador arrives in Canberra today to present his credentials, they will not be addressed to the Governor-General. The GG will be given an envellope addressed to "Her Majesty the Queen of Australia". And the GG, in the name of the Queen, will welcome the ambassador and accept the credentials. And if the following day his head of state turns up on a state visit, at the state banquet no-one will toast the Governor-General. They will toast the Queen because she, not the GG is the head of state. If the GG was, the letters would be addressed to him, the toast would be to him. FearÉIREANN 06:00, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

We appear to be talking at cross purposes (and, by the bye, I have also reviewed the area thoroughly). You appear to be addressing the question "is the G-G a Head of State?". I was addressing the meta-question, "is that generally accepted and not disputed?". As it happens, regardless of the merits of the first question, it has not actually been settled - it is still a matter of controversy and any republican who says different is speaking incorrectly on behalf of monarchists. So, I want to find a form of words that, while not causing problems with Head of State issues, also does not make the POV assertions implied by assuming it's "nem con". After all, the whole point of "myth" is not whether it is true or false but rather whether it is a fact that it is a belief having an effect on the world at large. I think I ought to find the monarchist sites that manifest this belief, and place it before you - I think they cite the Harry Evans' comment I referred to earlier. PML.
Here we go, slap bang at the beginning of the current version of [[1]] we find [[2]] - PML.

The Governor-General is not a head of state. evidence

  1. The Australian constitution
  2. All letters of Credence from all diplomatics to Australia and all diplomats from Australia
  3. Buckingham Palace
  4. The Governor-General's office
  5. Two past governors general
  6. The Prime Minister's Office
  7. Report of the Republic Advisory Committee
  8. The Professor of Law in the University of New South Wales
  9. The Senior Lecturer and Research Fellow in the School of Politics and Public Policy, Griffith University

It is not a "some people think . . . " issue. It is a demonstrable fact.

Hang on a bit, do you see where you're sliding around, grasping related but distinct aspects the topic? Earlier you put "...a fact agreed by all sides in the republican debate; from the pro-monarchist side and former governors-general to Malcolm Turnbell for the republicans...", which is at least as demonstrably untrue. You see, you just there just now started talking about demonstrable fact, but you earlier used words to the effect of "undisputed fact". I am not trying to buy into whether you are right on the Head of State issue, at least not just yet, I am seeking a wording that shows it is still a matter of controversy. Monarchists plainly do not all accept that the Queen is Head of State - we have their own published statements to that effect. I'm going to put forward a draft rewording, but I don't want to attempt that until it is clear just what it is I am trying to achieve by it - namely, showing that opinion is divided on the subject. As to whether opinion is sound, well, ordinarily that would matter rather more, but in this whole area what counts is more what impels people than whether they are formulating a consistent position by the standards of Wikipedia's contributors. It's certainly POV to make out that this is a matter of general agreement, and false to boot. PML.

After all, some people think George Bush is not the legal President of the United States. Much as I disapprove of most of his policies, it is a statement of fact that he is. Some people claim Mary McAleese is not the legal president of Ireland. They can claim it all they like, it is a fact she is.

It is a fact that those groups don't matter; but there are groups that matter on this point. PML.

Some people claim Italy and Albania aren't republics; they are. Some websites claim Queen Elizabeth II is actually the world's mastermind in the drugs trade! They can claim it all they want, but it is a demonstrable fact that she isn't, just as it is a demonstrable fact that the Governor-General is not a head of state and other than through a change in the law and Letters Patent cannot become so. If the constitution says one thing, and a few websites say something else, there is no debate. The constitution is the source.

Er... no, most emphatically. Constitutions merely express, they do not create.
I guess you aren't a constitutional lawyer if you think that. Of course constitutions create. The constitutional of the Fifth French Republic created a presidency of the Fifth Republic. The constitution of Ireland created a President of Ireland, a national parliament, a courts system, fundamental rights, etc. In some cases they basically created a new version of institutions that had existed already, having been created in the 1922 constitutions. No wonder you are confused about the head of state issue, PML, if you have such a confused understanding of constitutions. :-) FearÉIREANN
I was afraid I was being too brief to be clear. JTDIRL, you have fallen into a common intellectual trap, that you are less prone to than some but still fall for sometimes. The constitution isn't the document. What goes in the document does indeed feed into what happens, but it's not the constitution itself. I was referring to the way that, whenever actual frameworks get out of step with the documents, it is the documents that are wrong - tautologically. To take one example, the constitution of Ireland did not so much create all those things as directed that they be created; to read that as "creating" is correct at one level, wrong at another - it is an immediate/ultimate cause thing, and it depends on just which question you are asking. The only reason I brought that whole thing up just there was as a reminder that constitutions are not documents. And by the bye, it is more helpful to ask what people think they mean than to tell them they don't know what they are talking about; I am sure you know that old rhetorical technique, the "Cork question". PML.

In the event that it was out of step with real events, it would be wrong, ipso facto. But we haven't got as far as exploring that yet; and in any case, it is still a matter of interpretation, since the constitution is silent on a great many things (including the Head of State question).

No it isn't silent on the head of state issue. *sigh* FearÉIREANN 18:04, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Add in every legal diplomatic document ever written, the Queen, a monarchist prime minister, a republican academic, the Governor-General and two of his precedessors and the case is closed. After all, if those sources don't know the facts, who else will? FearÉIREANN 13:55, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That appears to be a peculiar inversion of an argument from authority. I hope and trust that in due course, after researching the matter, we will. Just for now, I want to dispel the insidious part, the misinformation that republicans seem to have slipped in pretending that the matter has been agreed, in terms they themselves have put forward. It is not only disputed, it is also disputed by a material group, which makes it significant even though the POV aspect has to be allowed for - a significance previous analogies with cranks failed to parallel. PML.
That is complete balderdash. It not a republican invention. Her Majesty the Queen is not a republican. The Prime Minister is an open monarchist. The constitution predates the current republican debate by a century. All three and every other authoritative source agree on three things:
  • Australia is a constitutional monarchy;
  • The head of state of Australia is Queen Elizabeth.
  • She is represented by a Governor-General who is not, could not and cannot be a head of state. FearÉIREANN 18:04, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Sigh. One, no, not every other authoritative source agrees. That is precisely the fact I brought out in my reference over there. Two, I am not saying it is a republican invention, I am saying that it is a republican misrepresentation when they falsely tell others that the matter is agreed that way. PML.
The sites that reference Australians for Constitutional Monarchy seem to be glossing over the fact that it is the Queen who is the Head of State. As a Canadian and loyal subject of the Crown who has received two law degrees from McGill University I can state catagorically that the Governor-General of Canada is NOT the head of state, but merely her representative.
Ah - that's where I came in. I wanted to find a form of words that didn't impose Australian context elsewhere. Possibly they are glossing over it; and then again, possibly they are merely using normal Australian usage which it would be wrong to use more generally or more technically (terms of art, and that). After all, it is the usage in the 1975 constitutional crisis article right here in wikipedia. The monarchists do make the point that it is not a technical term within the constitution anyway. PML.
All this means in english??? FearÉIREANN 18:04, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Well, the monarchist material itself is clearer than I can make things in the time and space available. That's why I provided the link. PML.

My review of Australian constitutional history and law has not convinced me that there is any argument (even a minority argument) that the Governor General is the Head of State. Even Australian Republicans agree with this position: Australian Republian Movement FAQ, Head of State.

Also the point - it is typically the republicans who have misrepresented this as the consensus Australian view. It's not "even" they admit it, it's something they want to make into a fact of discussion as a support of other things. First and foremost, before even addressing its accuracy, I wanted to shoot down this attempt to set the ground of debate (they also often pretend that citing republican ex-G-Gs is an independent source). For what it's worth, the term "head of state" has settled along the monarchist lines in the discussion of the 1975 constitutional crisis - the usage isn't merely that of cranks. As far as crankiness goes, I wanted to establish that monarchist views are substantively represented; even if, especially if, we are cranks, our views have material consequences and should be acknowledged as facts of the developing situation.
I suspect JTDIRL was misreading what I meant, and I can see where I was unclear: rather than addressing the point about H of S just there and then, I meant to convey that JTDIRL had been misinformed about whether this view of the nature of a Head of State was "a fact agreed by all sides in the republican debate; from the pro-monarchist side and former governors-general to Malcolm Turnbell for the republicans"; the former G-Gs involved are republicans, so this is double counting rather than an independent view, and it's plain wrong about the monarchists - as borne out by the reference I gave.
I'm going to draft a version I'm happier with and post it here for comment in a day or so. PML.
OK - here's an attempt:-
In some cases, one person holds multiple crowns. Technically, these may be considered headships of state, and the crown may be represented in each state by a governor-general. Though the governor-general may fulfil many of the functions and responsibilities of a head of state, he or she is not a head of state in his or her own right but rather the representative of the Crown. See, for example, the Queen of Canada. However, for certain purposes - including ordinary speech - the governors-general themselves may be considered heads of state. This is complicated by the fact that the situation is evolving in all these countries, reflecting changes in their connection to the "mother country"; a considerable school of thought ([3]) in Australia does consider the governor-general to be head of state. One way to distinguish the situation is that the governors-general hold offices but the monarch does not - offices are "under" the Crown. Examples are Canada, Australia and New Zealand, where the monarch, Queen Elizabeth II, ordinarily resides in another of her kingdoms, the United Kingdom, and so is represented by a governor-general.
I hope this moves us on. PML.
The fact that a monarchist group thinks that the Governor General is head of state is unconvincing to me. If there are republican groups that believe it is so, I would like to find such people and examine their arguments. If it is just crackpots who think so, I do not think that the NPOV approach requires that we discuss every crackpot theory that is posted on the internet, this is an encyclopedia of knowledge not of crackpot theories. If there is a recognized group that has a reasonable theory about the republican nature of the Governor general, then yes, I think that would merit mention and even a seperate page, perhaps. Alex756 04:27, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Frankly PML's rewrite blurs fact and fiction,

Hold on there, it is precisely that join I am seeking to find, so we don't end up doing that. Case in point: you yourself made the demonstratedly false claim that all parties agree with the idea that the Queen is Head of State; regardless of whether she really is or not, clearly it is not a consensus view. We can probably find a way of working around that, and exploring the consensus separately from the reality; and that is what I am trying to do. PML.

treats demonstrable constitutional fact as opinion, and suggests that demonstrable facts be given equality with crackpot theories widely dismissed as garbage.

With such respect as is due, that is not what I am trying to do. If it were, I would have gone straight to editing rather than put forward a draft for comment. One, regardless of whether the theories are crackpot or not, they are a real and present fact and - what is more - a material one. (Read Edward Augustus Freeman on the subject.) Two, I am trying to deal separately with opinions and systems, presenting the factuality of each differently. The parts where I disagree with your understanding of the systems relate - as far as I can see - to your confusion of constitutional law with the whole of what constitutions are; again, we can leave that out, here, in this article, if we are careful enough to work around it. PML.

Wiki is an encyclopædia, not a home for crackpot theories held on the extreme fringe. We had another example of this some months ago when one person continually kept trying to change all Australian articles to state that "Australia is a republic". Now we have a monarchist trying to insist that the Governor-General is a head of state. Neither is correct and each is demonstrably not correct. Why is it that the Australian articles keep attracting such absurd theories? FearÉIREANN 21:42, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

May I suggest you take up that particular argument over this point here with the ACM spokesmen, and do not take it upon yourself to dismiss their views merely for not matching what you have been told they are? Specifically, you have stated that the Australian constitution does touch on the "Head of State"; I incline to believe the monarchists when they say that it touches on the Crown and the G-G, but that the "Head of State" only comes in once you add in some more framework. In other words, you get out whatever you bring in, after a process of interpretation. Now, I put these comments in here in search of a way round sticking in interpretation. If you see a way to do that that achieves it more cleanly than my draft above, feel free to suggest it; but do not leave in something that rests on the assumption that "Head of State" means all those things, when that very point is still unresolved. I'm not asking for it to be resolved my way round either, just that open questions shouldn't be made to go by default. PML.

There are no open questions. The Queen is the head of state. Period. A governor-general is not. Period. A governor-general fulfils head of state functions on behalf of the Queen or based on her or her own constitutional powers and functions, which come to the office in its royal representational, not state representational, role. As such he or she is the de facto head of state, which means they in effect act as a head of state. But they are not the de jure head of state, ie, they are not legally a head of state. As to the false claim that all parties agree with the idea that the Queen is Head of State THEY DO. The constitution does. Letters Patent do. The Queen does. The republicans do. The monarchists do. The governors-general, past and present, do. The Republic Advisory Committee does. The Australian embassy in Dublin does. Each and every one of the 128 states with diplomatic representation in Canberra do. The provincial states do. Judges do. Law texts do. Top academics do. No-one says she isn't.
People sometimes call a governor-general a de facto head of state. What that means is that in practical reality he or she fulfils many of the functions, both practical and in some cases symbolic, of the head of state. But no-one but a few isolated fringe people claim a governor-general is a de jure head of state. This article is about a de jure head of state, not a de facto head of state, ie, who is a head of state, not who acts like a head of state but isn't legally one. I can fulfil the functions of my professor of Politics if I stand in and take his lectures, if I deal with his correspondence when he is away. But that doesn't make me a professor of politics, merely a stand-in. In legal terms, all a governor-general is is a stand-in for the head of state, a de facto head of state while carrying out those functions. But he or she is not legally the head of state in his or her capacity. If they were, diplomats would not address letters of credence to the Queen, the Queen's authority would not be used in the exercise of constitutional functions, the Queen would not appoint the governor-general and have the power to remove him or her. Heads of state cannot appoint and dismiss each other. How bluntly does it have to be pointed out to you that you are wrong, that you are confused about what a head of state is. Alex is correct (below) in making that distinction, between a de facto head of state and a de jure one. A de jure head of state is a head of state, a de-facto a form of stand-in who fulfils many of the functions of a head of state, from the representational (on behalf of the Queen) to the symbolic (on behalf of Australia). But being de facto isn't enough. Donald Regan was often called the "de facto American prime minister". But that did not mean America had a prime minister. John Prescott has been the de facto British Prime Minister for the last couple of weeks while Blair has been on holidays. But that did not mean he was the prime minister, merely that he acted in effect as prime minister, as a stand-in for the absent prime minister. FearÉIREANN 15:09, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have found links to Governor-General being called the de facto Head of State in Australia; this by a well known and well respected Australian constitutional law professor: "Prof Williams, of the University of NSW, agreed with Opposition Leader Simon Crean that Prime Minister John Howard should consult more widely before making the next appointment. "The Governor-General today is seen as our defacto head of state," he said. "He or she is not merely a representative of the Queen and if a person is that important, we need the people to be involved, I think, perhaps even through a nominations process that will put people forward to the Prime Minister." (1). I am not Australian and this is enough authority for me, as someone knowledgeable about commonwealth legal history, and a loyal subject of Her Majesty, the Queen of Canada; I do not think this in anyway mis-states the office of the Governor-General. I think citizens of most Commonwealth countries would agree that even though the Elizabeth II is our Queen, that the Governor-General plays that role in a de facto manner — this is not to suggest that the Rt. Hon. Adrianne Clarkson is the de jure head of state, but she does fulfil those duties and in Canada is seen as representing all Canadians — is that not what a head of state is in popular terms? Also, the Queen does not interfere with what a Governor-General does; she does not set their agenda, they have, in fact, wide authority within their jurisdiction to do as they wish. They do not consult the Queen before making such decisions. An example is the role that the Governor-General plays as the Royal Visitor of McGill University, she actually makes judicial decisions that bind the University, she makes them, not the Queen — just like any other judge who is also just a representative of the Crown. Alex756 04:12, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Just to make it clear I still beleive that the Queen is the de jure Head of State of commonwealth countries, and the Governor-General, as her representative, is the de facto head of state —. even after reading Sir David Smith's paper on the subject. Is that confusing enough for you folks? Maybe there should be some material on Constitution of Australia about this debate. That would seem to be the most appropriate place for such a country specific issue, not here, where we are talking about head of state in a more general way.Alex756
Many countries in the Commonwealth have other heads of state. The independent Commonwealth countries with the Queen as the head of state (apart from the United Kingdom) all have a governor-general as her representative, and they are sometimes referred to as her "realms". I suppose that if the Queen went to live in the Bahamas, the UK would have to appoint a governor-general.
Probably not, the UK would probably appoint Councillors of State under the Regency Act to perform the Royal functions. This is the practice when the Queen is absent from the realm. An alternative would be to appoint a Regent under the Act but the conditions for that would probably not be satisfied.

Featured Article Nomination (not promoted)[edit]

(Contested -- Jun 30) Head of state[edit]

I haven't edited this one but just stumbled upon it a few days ago. What a fantastic article! As someone from a country that doesn't separate out the head of state function, it made for fascinating reading. The superb images, erudite quotes and well-analyzed breakdown of functions add a very professional flavor to the article, in my opinion. --TreyHarris 06:19, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Minor quibble - Under CEO, it mentions Sweden is somehow different is terms of executive power, but doesn't mention how. Burgundavia 07:58, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Image problems:
    • King Albert image has no source information
    • Putin image has source information, but it is not clear if there is permission to use the image.
    • Swiss council image has no source information
    • Bush signing image has vague source information, but it is not clear if there is any permission to use the image.
    • Jeronimo 08:40, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
A pity. I don't know how to rectify the objection (it's actionable, just not by me), and if I swapped out the photos with others, I'd no longer support the article as a FA--the great photos were one of the things that drew me to nominate it. So I suppose I had better withdraw the nomination. Too bad there's not a "not a FA, but you should read this anyway" page. ;-) --TreyHarris 15:32, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think we can overcome this. All five photos were uploaded by User:J.J.. I've asked him if he can help with adding more detail about image origin. I think this has got to be a case of crossing the "t"s and dotting the "i"s. Images of heads of state are not likely to cause copyright problems; we can claim fair use as required. Pcb21| Pete 16:21, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Support Avala 19:26, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • Support, assuming the image problems are solved. James F. (talk) 20:50, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Good article 1) The article has a "bulleted" style, presenting the information primarily as lists. Lists are great for presenting certain types of information,(for example the "Official residences" section) but I think they make a poor style for structuring an encyclopedia article. 2) Slightly over italicisation of things for emphasis when it's not necessary (I can probably fix these myself). 3) Need some history of the "head of state"; (of course, people have had rulers for as long as we can remember, but this article is about a more specific concept). — Matt 15:17, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Presidential System"[edit]

Surely there's a better term than this? By far the majority of presidential systems around the world have a separate office of Prime Minister. I think it's useful to make the distinction, but the way the article currently reads makes it sound like most republics follow the american presidential model, which is demonstrably false.

I don't know much about all this, but how abaou semi-presidential systems? Dustin Asby 10:33, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid the correct term is presidential system. It is irrelevant whether there is a prime minister or not. The definition of whether a system is a presidential system is not is - is the executive answerable to the

  1. head of state alone - if so it is a presidential system
  2. head of state and parliament - then its a semi-presidential system
  3. parliament - then it is a parliamentary system.

Some presidential systems have prime ministers, some don't. In most presidential systems the PM is a minor figure, a constitutional functionary and administrator who does the day to day dog work for the president. In parliamentary systems in contrast the PM is the key player, the head of government who leads government, chooses ministers, etc. PMs in presidential systems are servants, not masters. PMs in parliamentary systems are masters, not servants.

I have corrected the article to remove some inaccuracies that seemed to have cropped into the text and expanded the information. FearÉIREANN 15:42, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a whole lot clearer than the presidential system article. Ben Arnold 05:43, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Parliament" vs. "Legislature"[edit]

Are all legislatures automatically parliaments? Which is the more general term?

Legislature. Parliament implies a Westminster system. - Sekicho 03:20, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

In common parlance parliament is often used as a generic term for any legislature so we needn't be too strict about this. But, yes, in general the term legislature should be prefered for this kind of encyclopedia article. Iota 23:00, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wrong, totally and utterly wrong. To claim that this idiosyncratic and culturocentric usage is "common parlance" simply to claim an absolute and outright lie. All parliaments are legislatures. Not all legislatures are parliaments. The US Congress is NOT a parliament. To speak of a "parliament" is to SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDE bodies like the US Congress. Dogface 15:26, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Whose common parlance? Compare

[4] and [5] and tell me which one is more general... - Sekicho 23:47, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

It's not an important point so i won't argue it further here, but please don't shout (i.e. use capitals) or use inflaminatory language. Reasonable people can disagree you know.
On a separate point don't change the spellings in the article to US English. The rest of the article is in non-US English and it is the Wikipedia convention to leave it that way Iota 02:21, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)


In the text it is mentioned that presidents that acquire presidency by military means or by coup d'état are also considered as having a government running a presidential system. However, in the page "Lists of government" it says that presidential systems are a form of democracy (which dictatorships are clearly not), so where do you get the source that states that presidential systems also encompass governments where presidents have gained power via a coup d'état for example (i.e. by undemocratic means)?

Personal representatives of Andorran Co-princes[edit]

Can anyone tell whether the personal representatives of both Andorran Co-princes possess the same (or similar) status and authorities as the Governor-Generals of Commonwealth Realms, as the Andorran Constitution just states that the Co-princes can appoint personal representatives but does not mention their status and authorities. -- DD Ting 15:57, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)