Talk:Herb Caen/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Nationality in lede
I reverted per WP:MOSBIO. Please take a look at how 99% of bios are written currently. Thank you. --Mollskman (talk) 11:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps you can be more specific regarding what in MOSBIO supports your changing "San Francisco journalist" to "American journalist". What I see is:
- Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity) 1.In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident
- Notice the word most.
- S.F. is one of the universally-recognized cities which is, normally, neither linked nor qualified with a country (or state, in the case of US cities -- others are Chicago, LA, NYC, London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo, and so on), and combining this with the fact that Herb Caen's entire career, and personal identity, were inexorably intertwined with San Francisco makes it both completely appropriate, and completely intelligible, to identify him as a "San Francisco journalist." To call him, instead, an "American journalist" would be like terming Fiorello La Guardia an "American mayor" instead of (as his article -- resumably one of the 1% left over after your 99% -- calls him) "Mayor of New York City".
- EEng (talk) 23:24, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Caen based his fame on a very close connection to San Francisco, and to a lesser degree, Northern California. He was a San Francisco journalist, there's no doubt of it. Binksternet (talk) 23:40, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to write that he was an American journalist with strong ties to SF ect, that would be ok I guess. Most well written bios include the person's nationality in the lede and then why they are notable. If we said somebody was the major of jerk water, usa, we can assume they are American. I don't want to remove his SF connection or significance, just put it after his nationality like we do for 99% of well written bios unless there is an over riding reason not to conform to MOSBIO, thats all. This really shouldn't be that contensious.--Mollskman (talk) 00:52, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Caen based his fame on a very close connection to San Francisco, and to a lesser degree, Northern California. He was a San Francisco journalist, there's no doubt of it. Binksternet (talk) 23:40, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Anyone familiar with Caen would see a description of him as having strong ties to San Francisco as consciously humorous understatement, and as already explained SF and NYC are not comparable to "Jerkwater" but rather are universally recognized cities whose mention automatically implies nationality. American journalist with strong ties to San Francisco packs more words into less meaning than San Francisco journalist so if your goal is "well-written bios" please explain why the description of Caen shoudn't follow that of Fiorello La Guardia, whose article opens thus: Firello La Guardia was Mayor of New York for three terms from 1934 to 1945. What in MOSBIO does that override? EEng (talk) 10:29, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Whatever wording you can suggest would be helpful, since you know alot more about the subject of this bio than I do. Alot of political bios skip nationality because if they are the POTUS or commerce secretary or attorney general, its understood that they have American nationality. Look at the bios of famous actors, writers, historians, musicans, ect, they ALL have nationality listed first per MPOSBIO. Can you find an example other than politicians? Look at Steven Spielberg. You could make the case that he should be a Hollywood director, ect. Or look at famous atheletes, who maybe only played for one city, Cal Ripken, Jr.. We mention his nationality and then the city he was noted for. Again, this really shouldn't be that contensious. The BLP board is always a good place to get others involved and I would defer to what people there thought. Would that be agreeable? --Mollskman (talk) 11:52, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I only added the nationality back to the lede. --Mollskman (talk) 17:57, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- "San Francisco-based" establishes Caen as an American, with the added benefit that it is more specific than the general term "American". It is more concise, gives more information in fewer words. Binksternet (talk) 18:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Ah, no, it doesn't establish him as an American. There are lots of SF based folks who are not American. I am not sure why you don't want to follow the MOS but I will take this to the BLP board. --Mollskman (talk) 18:39, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with the already long established and now re-affirmed consensus - Herb Caen was a San Francisco journalist and should be identified as such in this article. I say 'was', because he's dead - so theres not much point in forum-shopping to the Biograhies of Living Persons noticeboard. Dlabtot (talk) 19:45, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I was just trying to get others involved, geesh. You like to go against MOSBIO, fine, got it. --Mollskman (talk) 20:26, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I never heard of Herb Caen until I moved to the San Francisco Bay Area, and then I heard about him a lot—I used to read his column in the Chronicle. I think it's weird to describe him in any other way than as a San Francisco writer. For heaven's sake, the word "San Fransciscaena" was coined to describe his writing! Abhayakara (talk) 20:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I was just trying to get others involved, geesh. You like to go against MOSBIO, fine, got it. --Mollskman (talk) 20:26, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with the already long established and now re-affirmed consensus - Herb Caen was a San Francisco journalist and should be identified as such in this article. I say 'was', because he's dead - so theres not much point in forum-shopping to the Biograhies of Living Persons noticeboard. Dlabtot (talk) 19:45, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Ah, no, it doesn't establish him as an American. There are lots of SF based folks who are not American. I am not sure why you don't want to follow the MOS but I will take this to the BLP board. --Mollskman (talk) 18:39, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- "San Francisco-based" establishes Caen as an American, with the added benefit that it is more specific than the general term "American". It is more concise, gives more information in fewer words. Binksternet (talk) 18:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I only added the nationality back to the lede. --Mollskman (talk) 17:57, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Whatever wording you can suggest would be helpful, since you know alot more about the subject of this bio than I do. Alot of political bios skip nationality because if they are the POTUS or commerce secretary or attorney general, its understood that they have American nationality. Look at the bios of famous actors, writers, historians, musicans, ect, they ALL have nationality listed first per MPOSBIO. Can you find an example other than politicians? Look at Steven Spielberg. You could make the case that he should be a Hollywood director, ect. Or look at famous atheletes, who maybe only played for one city, Cal Ripken, Jr.. We mention his nationality and then the city he was noted for. Again, this really shouldn't be that contensious. The BLP board is always a good place to get others involved and I would defer to what people there thought. Would that be agreeable? --Mollskman (talk) 11:52, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- BTW, an analogous article would be the one on Mike Royko, a well known and loved Chicago columnist who held a similar place in the hearts of Chicagoans as Herb did in the hearts of San Franciscans. Mike's article refers to him as "a Chicago columnist." I think this is correct, and I think referring to Herb Caen as "a San Francisco writer" is similar. Abhayakara (talk) 02:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing out that bio, I have added his nationality to the lede per MOSBIO. --Mollskman (talk) 02:53, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- And I've restored it to simply Chicago columnist. You seem preoccupied [1] with making sure every bio's lead includes the subject's nationality. But MOSBIO (which you keep citing without, despite multiple requests, pointing to a particular provision supporting your position) calls for the subject's
- Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity) 1.In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident
- It's clear that nationality (by which you seem to mean citizenship, given your comment that "There are lots of SF based folks who are not American") is not a desideratum per se, rather should be given if it happens to be the best way to set the subject's context -- simple "location" being one of two other choices suggested. According to overwhelming consensus "SF" is the best choice for HC's "context".
- BTW contrary to your statements above, US Cabinet officers need not be citizens (at least legally, though as a political reality they probably do).
- EEng (talk) 11:14, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- I added his nationality but left his location first. I would suggest looking at some or most of the highest quality written bios, ie feature articled bios, regardless of what nationality they hold. They include nationality in the lede. Adding it does not take away from the quality of the prose. Is there a good reason NOT to include it in the lede? --Mollskman (talk) 12:52, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- I left the SF-based part in. Why should his nationality be removed? Any reason? --Mollskman (talk) 14:19, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- I re-adddd his nationality AFTER the SF part but will try not to revert it again. --Mollskman (talk) 14:23, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- I can't believe you vandalized the Mike Royko article. I'm sorry I mentioned it. Newspaper columnists are something that I think the younger generation doesn't really get, because we don't have newspapers anymore in the sense we did in Herb Caen and Mike Royko's day. Herb was a San Franciscan first, and an American second. Same with Mike Royko. They were relentless advocates for their cities, and their view shaped their cities. Calling Herb Caen a "San Francisco-based" columnist is like saying that the Brooklyn Bridge is a "New York City-based" bridge. It's a bridge in New York and he was a San Francisco columnist. I get your motivation here, but your lack of familiarity with the subject matter is turning you into a bull in a china shop here. Please put this back. Abhayakara (talk) 15:38, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Nice work guys, it looks really good now. Ect ] and prize mentioned twice in lede. So lede is now crap. Happy? --Mollskman (talk) 17:01, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Also, Herb was a San Franciscan first, and an American second, do you know how patriotic Caen was? Didn't think so. --Mollskman (talk) 17:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm sure he would have been deeply torn if San Francisco had attempted to secede. Fortunately, that didn't happen during his lifetime, and indeed has not yet happened! :) Abhayakara (talk) 20:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- I can't believe you vandalized the Mike Royko article. I'm sorry I mentioned it. Newspaper columnists are something that I think the younger generation doesn't really get, because we don't have newspapers anymore in the sense we did in Herb Caen and Mike Royko's day. Herb was a San Franciscan first, and an American second. Same with Mike Royko. They were relentless advocates for their cities, and their view shaped their cities. Calling Herb Caen a "San Francisco-based" columnist is like saying that the Brooklyn Bridge is a "New York City-based" bridge. It's a bridge in New York and he was a San Francisco columnist. I get your motivation here, but your lack of familiarity with the subject matter is turning you into a bull in a china shop here. Please put this back. Abhayakara (talk) 15:38, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- And I've restored it to simply Chicago columnist. You seem preoccupied [1] with making sure every bio's lead includes the subject's nationality. But MOSBIO (which you keep citing without, despite multiple requests, pointing to a particular provision supporting your position) calls for the subject's
- Thanks for pointing out that bio, I have added his nationality to the lede per MOSBIO. --Mollskman (talk) 02:53, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Putting nationality in the lead of public figures is standard practice. "San Francisco" is not a nationality. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Good luck with this Bugs, but I have given up and will not revert again. Thanks, --Mollskman (talk) 22:26, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- It strikes me that there's some kind of snobbish POV-pushing going on with Caen and Royko, as if nobody outside of their cities ever heard of them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- I was even ok with having BOTH location and nationality mentioned in the lede as a compromise, but that was shot down. --Mollskman (talk) 22:44, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- He was an American journalist based in San Francico. That seems straightforward enough. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:11, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- I was even ok with having BOTH location and nationality mentioned in the lede as a compromise, but that was shot down. --Mollskman (talk) 22:44, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- It strikes me that there's some kind of snobbish POV-pushing going on with Caen and Royko, as if nobody outside of their cities ever heard of them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Good luck with this Bugs, but I have given up and will not revert again. Thanks, --Mollskman (talk) 22:26, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Neither of you is engaging what your fellow editors have said above. If you can't see the stylistic superiority of
- Herb Caen was a San Francisco journalist
over
- Herb Caen was a San Francisco-based American journalist
then, quite bluntly, you have a tin ear for language. You seem to think good articles are written by filling in blanks in a form. EEng (talk) 00:18, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly. I think a newspaper writer's bio should be the perfect place for succinct concision. I like "Herb Caen was a San Francisco journalist" for its perfect compactness. The practice of writing bios by filling blanks in a form reminds me of Emerson's hobgoblin. Binksternet (talk) 00:27, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
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Untitled
Caen wrote several books about San Francisco and environs. Exceelent reading for anyone wanting a "human view" of the Bay Area and, since some of the books date back 40 and more years, provide a valuable look at an earlier era of humanity.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.50.0.100 (talk) 00:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)