Talk:I'll Fly Away

Bob Marley

As far as I can tell - Bob Marley did not cover this song on Burnin' as presently mentioned in the article. Track listings on Amazon or wikipedia do not list it. --Pklala (talk) 14:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

i looked everywhere trying to find a bob marley version of this song, and as far as i can tell, one does not exist, and certainly is not on the album burnin. i'm going to go ahead and remove him from the list. - Shadowsill (talk) 19:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Jars of Clay section

It doesn't make sense for a version by one particular act to be spotlighted so prominently. This section should be deleted. It might be replaced with a section listing versions by different artists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucas gonze (talk • contribs) 16:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Lucas gonze (talk) 16:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

It does make sense for a version by one particartist, or multiple if need be. It's how we work on Wikipedia. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason the version by that particular band should be given its own section when it is already in the 'notable covers' section.

laurent (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes there is. It's one of their singles. It's done on many, many other pages. A song that is recorded and released as a charting single by several artists may have infoboxes for each artist. Remove it from the notable covers section if you want, but don't remove the infobox. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be moved down as per Light My Fire and other similar songs. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:01, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Particular info on the Jars of Clay version can be found by clicking on the Jars of Clay link and reading their discography. They are not, by far, the most prominent artists to have covered this song. Their cover, though it may be a fine piece of music, does not merit its own section on this page. I say delete it.--RyeWhiskey (talk) 01:51, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to disagree with RyeWhiskey and agree with Walter. If the song was a charting single it should have its own infobox. If any of the listed artists who covered the song released it as a single they deserve a infobox as well. Karl 334 ^{☞TALK to ME ☜} 22:42, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

We'll have to distinguish here between "charting single" and simply "single." According to Billboard.com the Jars of Clay cover never charted. I guess it is considered a single in that it got some airplay on Christian radio. Alison Krauss's cover is also listed as a single on her discography page, though it also never charted. Having been included on a soundtrack that went platinum, it certainly got more exposure. If we want to include an infobox for every cover of the song that might be considered a single, fine, but to have a section of the main article dedicated to the Jar's of Clay cover makes no sense whatsoever. --RyeWhiskey (talk) 00:25, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• I would also agree that the jars of clay infobox should go. Isn't the fact that there is a Jars of Clay footer here enough? The Jars of clay cover section should be removed or blended into a larger discussion of historic recordings of the song. Of course, these are the least of the problems with the article. The greater issue is the lack of history here, and the lack of important performers (e.g. Bill Monroe isn't even on the list). A good start would be to put the list in chronological order--better would be to develop a discussion of these performances into prose. -MrFizyx (talk) 01:04, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The infobox is here because they have a charting song using the lyrics and melody of the song. The nav box is here for the same reason. It's common practice to include both. If others have performed the song, they should be added, with references.

And yes, chronological order for the recordings is a good idea. I'll get on that shortly. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Since the section is notable covers, what qualifies as notable? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:31, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. I removed entries where the performer is listed but no album is referenced. Next,, possibly in a few weeks, I will remove entries where the album article does not exist. Also need to have references for everything, but that should be easy enough. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:54, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Walter, I think you misunderstand me. First, as far as I can tell, it is not a "charting song" for jars of clay. Was the single even released to the public or just to radio stations as a promo for the album? What chart? Either way, I think you should drop the infobox for now. Unless you're willing to do a good bit of research on other releases. Second, adding {{citation needed}} to every album on a list of albums is really nonsense. Albums themselves are published sources that in most cases and be easily verified (especially if the label and year are given). Do you really believe none of these recordings exist? Third, I think just cutting out all entries where just the name is given may be unwise. You may unknowingly be removing artists whose contribution here is a great deal more important than Jars of Clay from a cultural/historic perspective (e.g. Mississippi John Hurt). -MrFizyx (talk) 03:44, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand me.

1. It's a charting single as it charted on Christian radio's AC charts.
2. Adding {{citation needed}} to every album is necessary, particularly when the album has no article. If you want to remove them though, I won't stand in the way.
3. If the artist name is the only thing that was entered, without a reference, it may be very important. It may also be trivial. Those entries can be added back.
4. I'm not suggesting that any individual entry without accompanying album is more important that the Jars entry, it's just that they released a charting single and this is how it's done for any other charting single. The infobox does not indicate that their recording is more important than any other, simply that it's part of the project.

Hope that explains things. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:15, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Infoboxes should be before lists. I will move if you don't. The new list format is great. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Walter, you point to an big dilemma here in how to determine what qualifies as a notable cover. I think what rubs me and perhaps others the wrong way about the prominence of the info on the Jars of Clay cover is that so many important artists have recorded this song at one time or another. You might help your case if you can point to a specific chart that this version appeared on. --RyeWhiskey (talk) 05:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

As mentioned above, see Light My Fire. A few more minutes of searching found Bring It On Home (Sonny Boy Williamson II song), In My Time of Dying, Roll Over Beethoven, Twist and Shout, When the Levee Breaks, and also You'll Need Somebody on Your Bond. I'm sure that there are many more.

From these examples we can see that charting singles are listed before "other performances". Also, it might make sense to have the Carolyn Hester version in its own section, before the Jars of Clay single, since there's a section of prose that goes with that recording which makes that item -out from the others.

MrFizyx, I like the addition of hymn infobox. I didn't realize that they had their own infobox. Good find. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

In the current state of the article, the Jars of Clay section gives undue weight to their recording (WP:UNDUE?). One gets the sense that you didn't come to this page to improve the coverage of the song, but rather to improve coverage of Jars of Clay. [I apologize for this statement, I must do better at assuming good faith. MrFizyx (talk)] The articles that you've listed above are nothing like this article where Jars of Clay's take is just one of one thousand different recorded versions. Also, the "charted versions" in those other articles are not on some obscure niche genre airplay chart (which you've yet to cite by the way). Most of them charted on national sales charts. To illustrate my point: Among a group of folk music DJs, two versions of Gillian Welch and Allison Krauss' "I'll Fly Away" ranked at #7 and #47 on a list of the most played songs of the year in 2001 (see 2001 Top Folk Song Airplay). This might be worth mentioning in the article, but it doesn't mean I'm going to create infoboxes for (both?) their recordings. -MrFizyx (talk) 08:47, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I didn't come here to improve the article in general. I am here because it's part of the Jars of Clay project which is part of the contemporary Christian music project. The presence of the Jars of Clay version is not undue though. The project for that band is very thorough. Also, it was here before I arrived. Adding infoboxes for others is appropriate, particularly if they're part of the projects for those groups and their songs. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I get. You're on a mission. There's no point in reasoning with you. -MrFizyx (talk) 03:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

No. You're on a mission. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:48, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Jars of Clay charting

Earlier you (Walter) gave the impression that their "single" appeared on Radio & Records' Christian AC chart. The link to "Alaska Jim's" page appears to reference a list of favorites at a single radio station (WNFR 90.7, Port Huron, MI), I gather this not what you had in mind. I did find a list of the Top 30 Christian AC Hits Of 2005, but "Jars" were absent. this article notes another track as a charting single, but only references "I'll Fly" as an album track. Is there really no info available on this? Also, Should the artist be "Jars of Clay feathering Sarah Kelly"? This appears to come up on many web sites. -MrFizyx (talk) 03:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm starting to see what happened. The infobox was merged in from here an article where the authors believed that the Jar's of Clay recording somehow wasn't even the same song. Is it possible that they were also wrong about there actually being a single? Find me a reliable source that indicates this was more than an album track. -MrFizyx (talk) 04:22, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

My source is a list of individual radio station charts. What they list for 2005 are year end charts. One station had it as their number one chart. The chart you list is similar. It doesn't even list which stations contribute to those charts. Also, there are multiple formats for Christian radio. Inspirational, Adult Contemporary, Contemporary Hit Radio, Worship, Rock, Gospel, Urban, and many others. Also, there's a difference between the Billboard charting stations and stations that report to other charting services. They're not listed at Billboard probably because they usually only chart singles that are released for sale and released to radio. As I wrote when I submitted the reference, many other charts are not publicly available and certainly not available to me. I will not find anything more for you. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

OK so some radio stations track songs. Doesn't mean it's a single. I've gone through a bunch of articles on Redemption Songs and they all describe one radio single. Show me proof. -MrFizyx (talk) 05:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Show me Christian AC charts from 2005 and you'll see it there. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:34, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Nah, do your own homework. At this point it's an unverified claim and can be removed at any time by any editor. -MrFizyx (talk) 22:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Not at all. It's got a reference. Removing it can find an editor cited for vandalism. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:43, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

The reference, at best, indicates it made a list (in fact, may have topped a list) of "top 25 songs" on one radio station. It in no way indicates the track was released as a single (independent of the album) which is what you've claimed. For the record, I don't think you're lying. I believe that you believe what you say to be true and I'm willing to give you some time to find a source before I remove it. I've really made an honest effort to find a source to support your claim, but I keep coming up empty. The JoC version is no doubt notable for getting some significant airplay and being on a very successful album. I just have strong doubts that it was released as a single (or even "radio single"). How do you account for it's absence from every newspaper and magazine article about the album and from this pretty extensive discography? It is not the job of other editors to prove what you say is false. It is your job to prove that it is true. Come now, you don't need a lecture on WP:V, do you? -MrFizyx (talk) 03:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

FYI: If you follow the links from your source to the current page for 2010, it's a list of top songs as voted by the station's listeners--nothing indicative of them being "singles." -MrFizyx (talk) 03:07, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

That resource, which I've seen before, doesn't list all radio singles, but it does list Redemption Songs Advance Release, which is the full album released to radio before it's released to stores. I have several of these from other artists in my collection. The sleeve or insert indicates which songs are to be considered as singles, for which formats, and on which dates.

FYI: You assume that the way that station runs things now is the same way they did six years ago. Also, if people are voting on songs, they're usually not isolated album tracks but radio singles. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:08, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I didn't assume anything. But your usually/maybe assumption that it is a single doesn't meet WP:V. ALSO, consider this from WP:NSONGS: "Unreleased material (including demos, mixtapes, bootlegs, promo-only recordings) are in general not notable; however, they may be notable if they have significant independent coverage in reliable sources." (Added emphasis is mine.) -MrFizyx (talk) 06:13, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

"Other occurrences" section

I have boldly removed the "other occurrences" section. If others want to revert & discuss, that's OK. Some of the items can be added to other parts of the article. I don't find live performances to be very notable and they're not easily sourced. -MrFizyx (talk) 13:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)