Talk:Ihr werdet weinen und heulen, BWV 103/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Smerus (talk · contribs) 16:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC) Just starting on this, and reminding myself of the GA criteria. More soon.--Smerus (talk) 16:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:31, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Initial comments after first read through. I see no major issues at this stage but there are a few points I would make.

• Lead. Two paras is about right for this article though the first is pretty basic. Is there the opportunity here for some context (which is lacking in the article) -e.g. 'JSB wrote X cantatas between 'date' and 'date' - this is the Zth in order of composition'? Just so one can 'place' it.

  This cantata is one of many, I found them (those covered before I got interested in the topic) with a standard lead of two sentences. I more or less kept that standard also for those cantatas which I expanded further. I hesitate to say in every one of some 200 at what time Bach composed cantatas (from 1707 to 1745), and the scholars have been unable to establish a chronological sequence even for the extant ones. These topics (including a chronological sequence following Dürr) are handled in the linked article Bach cantata, and you can sort all cantatas to your liking in the also linked List of Bach cantatas. I added his position of Thomaskantor, for perspective. I hesitate to link "second cycle" to Chorale cantatas, because it's a complicated matter: he started the second cycle with the ambition to write only chorale cantatas, but stopped after some 40 of those and returned to "normal" ones, like this one, which he later assigned to his third cycle. All this could be mentioned, as it is in BWV 68. What do you think? Gerda Arendt (talk)

• See below for topics mentioned in the lead which aren't fully explained in the body.
• I'm not sure about the translation of 'Jesus as the only doctor who will be missed' -that suggests one might remember him later. The body of the article would suggest an alternative such as e.g. 'Jesus, besides whom no doctor can be found' (or 'can compare'?).

  It's both, perhaps you can help to word that: Jesus is the doctor, besides whom no other doctor can be found, and (therefore) he will be sadly missed when he leaves as he announces. The best translations (imo) are those from Emmanuel Music (in Sources), the (very Baroque) aria text is

  "Besides You is no doctor to be found,

  though I search throughout Gilead;

  who shall heal the wounds of my sins,

  since there is no balsam here?

  If You conceal Yourself, I must die.

  Have mercy, ah, hear me!

  Indeed You do not seek my destruction,

  therefore my heart will still hope." Gerda Arendt (talk)

• Body. Clearly written, verifiable refs, no OR, appropriately neutral. That all ticks.
• Note re Infobox. I am a known anti-boxer, but respect the opinions of the main article editor to do as s/he thinks appropriate. In any case, presence/absence of infobox is not a GA criterion. Before commencing this review I engaged with the editor on the article talk page on some minor aspects of the infobox (in response to issues raised by herself and another editor), and she in fact accepted my suggestions.
• 'Broad in coverage'. I would raise again here the issue of context. The article is highly (and appropriately) descriptive of the cantata itself but doesn't say anything about it in the context of Bach's other cantatas or his works as a whole. Maybe there's not a lot to say - the cantatas are largely terra incognita to me - but I for one would find some perspective helpful - is this possible?
• And this leads me to the comments made above re the lead. You have a sentence there- 'the movement combines the elements of the text-related motet with the new form of the concerto' which you just more or less repeat in the body. I would have thought this could be expanded and explained a bit - I am guessing that the 'concerto' elements are the ritornelli (?), but this is not clarified in the text.

  This again is a very general aspect of music history that cantata developed from motet by giving more and more weight to independent instruments. Do you know an article that explains it? "Concerto" is understood (in German) as a term for music where different groups play in concerto fashion, for example the oboes "against" the strings. I wonder if Concerto grosso might be a good link. Gerda Arendt (talk)

  I slept over this, see below, Gerda Arendt (talk)

• Minor quibble - 'redacted' is a bit abstruse - 'edited'?

  If that is strong enough for using only 2 lines of four, and those 2 changed? My English is not good enough in such matters, and any help is appreciated. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Have to nip out now; more tomorrow.--Smerus (talk) 17:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

My pleasure: learning, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

---

Second round.

• Yes, I think theinformation in BWV 68 is the sort of thing you should include.

  I will but probably not today. Gerda Arendt (talk)

• I would go for 'Jesus, besides whom no doctor can be found'.

  That misses the "going to miss" aspect, related to the Farewell discourse. I would rather drop the "doctor" in the lead. Gerda Arendt (talk)

fine, it's your article!--Smerus (talk) 07:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• The 'concerto' aspect - this really does some expansion for the general reader. The word 'concerto' genreally suggests to English lay readers the romantic concerto, I think. We shouldn't be writing for specalists here, especially in a GA. Think about this. I tentatively suggest that, in the section 'Music', you take the last sentence of the second paragraph (the Durr quote) and use it as the start of a new second paragraph, ('According to AD, the architecture of the first movement...') in which you explain it a bit more. (in what way was concerto 'new' -what were outline characteristics of the concerto form- etc.). In this way references to ritornello etc. will be easier going for the lay reader. Then have the para starting 'The opening chorus...' as the third para of this section. By the way, it should read 'The opening chorus has an unusual structure' (not 'is an unusual structure'). Hope this is clear.

  It is clear but also will take time in rest, Gerda Arendt (talk)

  I slept over this. I would follow if this was the first cantata to introduce "concerto" format, but it's rather the opposite, that he incorparated elements of the motet, it's still a "concerto" of different groups of performers, vocal and instrumental. Perhaps we need something about it in the general articles, but I see no need to enlarge on it in every case he does such such a thing in a cantata. Quoting from Bach cantata: "Bach did not follow any scheme strictly, but composed as he wanted to express the words." Gerda Arendt (talk)

Noted--Smerus (talk) 07:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• 'redacted' - I would say on the basis of your comments, e.g. 'drastically edited, for example, in movement 4, excising two lines of the four and rewriting the other two.'

  Can you help me to understand that word better, - I think I saw it in "Don't redact other peples' comments" or so, Gerda Arendt (talk)

  Good! Gerda Arendt (talk)

• NB Pictures. Much as I admire John Eliot Gardner, he already appears in GAs for BWV76, BWV 22,and BWV 36. I would go for something different! And possibly more than one. Why not put a pic of the church in the infobox (advantage of a colour pic), the pic of von Ziegler in the text, and e.g a pic of a flauto piccolo?

  He is my greatest inspiration, and there is no one of Hofmann or Wolff, who would be the next choices. I like the link to present time. Lead: the coloured picture of the Thomaskirche is only for feast days, and not liked at all by Matsci, as not historic. Also: do we know which church? On feast days they were performed in both, Thomas and Nicolai, compare BWV 40, but on the other Sundays they alternated. In the lead pic, we try to get as precise as possible, and she is the only female contemporary librettist, as far as we know ;) - I will look for an instrument, the little flute would be good, but probably you see its size only in comparison. Gerda Arendt (talk)

Fine, whatever pics you think appropriate, and wherever as you like, just so there's some variety! --Smerus (talk) 07:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Awaiting your responses before further comment (don't worry,not much!)--Smerus (talk) 07:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

---

Third round.

Unfortunately in the revisons, which seem fine as regards content, there are a few new problems as regards English usage -

Lead. 1st para. Better, 'the third Sunday after Easter, Jubilate Sunday'. (i.e. in full).

None of the source says so, Dürr and Gardiner agree on "Jubilate", Wolff has "'Jubilate' Sunday", I show both now, - don't like a mix of Latin and English too much. Gerda Arendt (talk)

2nd para.

'namely' should I think be 'notably'. (? German nämlich ?)

in German it would be "namentlich" or "besonders" or "vor allem". Gerda Arendt (talk)

'in the fugal choral singing' - do you mean 'within a fugal choral setting'?

I don't know ;) - I hear it, therefore used singing, but changed, Gerda Arendt (talk)

'usual concerto form' - I would suggest 'typical concerto grosso form' (you have 'concerto grosso' as the link anyway, so show it in the text).

The more I read the less I think it's a good link, it covers only instrumental, what can we do? As you remarked above, "concerto" is even more general, covering romantic solo concertos more than anything else. (In German we can make a difference by calling that Konzert.) Gerda Arendt (talk)

'named a doctor as no other can be found' - I suggest 'characterised as a doctor whose like cannot be found'.

"Characterised" seems to precise, referring to Jesus. I tried a change. Gerda Arendt (talk)

The sentence beginning 'In contrast he scores....' - I think this means 'He scores a trumpet in only one movement, a coloratura aria expressing joy at the predicted return of Jesus'. 'Coloraturas', whilst technically correct to a connoisseur, would mean to an average English speaker 'ladies with high voices'.

"Coloratura aria" might tell the average reader Gilda or Lucia di Lammermoor, therefore I suggest to drop the word in the lead. Gerda Arendt (talk)

History and words. (My suggestions in bold)

Para 2 end ' unusual exceptional workload of creating the SJP'

Para 3 'Bach composed chorale cantatas for each week between......

Not only for each week: for the high holidays three consecutive days each, plus several saint's days

Para 4: 'Her own poetry reflects , in a sequence of recitatives and arias , in two movements , the sadness about at the loss of Jesus, and in two others the joy about at his predicted return.'

Para 5. You write 'Bach first performed the cantata' which might suggest to the unifromed that he gave a solo version. ? 'Bach first led a performance of the cantata...'?

He also played, so "led" is not quite correct. About 100 cantatas have this wording, and by para 5 the reader should be informed enough ;) Should we perhaps add "with the Thomanerchor"? Gerda Arendt (talk)

Music.

Para 2.

' which includeswith an arioso passage for the bass voice inserted'

'rich in chromaticism '.

'bBut the world...'

the ritormello is repeated completely in its entirety.

Can you find some other words for 'coloratura' and 'coloraturas' (see comments above under Lead).

It is the word the sources use. Gerda Arendt (talk)

Hmm - that's it, I think, for now - awaiting your responses ---Smerus (talk) 13:54, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's an image of a flauto picolo which seems to be free under Creative Commons (CC BY-SA) --Smerus (talk) 20:24, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the pic find and your specific comments. I took what I didn't comment. It's fortunate that you help me, please don't say "unfortunately" again ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

---

Commercial break.

I'm waiting now, Gerda, until you've completed any further changes you intend to make. It looks to me as if there may still be some to come, but if or when you believe you have come to the end of the process, let me know. Best, --Smerus (talk) 19:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I did what I could and left some questions for you, such as if the choir should be mentioned. "Concerto" should be handled in "Bach cantata" and "Concerto", not in this cantata. I will ask for help with the pic, but think it would be nice but not vital, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:36, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

---

A few minor language issues now remain, to make the text standard English.

History and words.

Para 1, last line: I suggest 'basis', rather than 'base'.

Para 2, last sentence: 'at that time' is better than 'then'.

Para 5: Your proposal 'with the Thomanerchor' is a good one.

Music

para 2. Sentence 1. I suggest ' a ritornello, after which', instead of 'a ritornello, then'.

Sentence 3. I suggest 'with a sudden tempo change to adagio', instead of 'suddenly adagio'.

Last sentence in para 2: delete 'to combine elemtents of the text-related motet with the new form of a concerto' , which you have rewritten more clearly in the next phrase. Only what is now not clear is exactly what it was that Bach 'typically used' - the motet or the concerto? I suspect the motet, in which case the sentence should read something like 'a text-related motet that Bach typically used, with the form of a concerto....' (or the other way round if I have got it wrong).--Smerus (talk) 12:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

All taken but the last one, for which I will need your help one more time. What you ask me to delete is what Dürr wrote. Bach typically used concerto, motet was already old-fashioned. Would this be better: According to Alfred Dürr, the architecture of the movement is a "large scale experiment" to combine elements of the older style of a text-related motet with the typical form of a concerto of instrumental groups and voices."? Improvement welcome. Pic: I found this but it's of course more than 200 years after Bach's time. - A farewell is hard to illustrate, otherwise I would like a pic related to the Gospel. I would drop Gardiner for this time if he was not quoted, but he is. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the choir is cute! but as you say not of the period!

I didn't ask to delete what Durr wrote! only your repetition of the same phrase - thus -

According to Alfred Dürr, the architecture of the movement is a large scale experiment to combine elements of the text-related motet with the new form of a concerto, combining elements of the older style of a text-related motet with the form of a concerto of instrumental groups and voices that Bach typically used.

Then I wasn't sure exactly what the last bit of the sentence meant. But in line with your explanation I would propose:

'According to Alfred Dürr, the architecture of the movement is a large scale experiment combining elements of the older style of a text-related motet with the form of a concerto of instrumental groups and voices, as typically used by Bach.'

Apologies for being at cross-purposes over this. I note what you say about the pics, so this sentence is the only outstanding issue.--Smerus (talk) 14:38, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

no apologies, I like the love of detail, your suggestion went to the article, thanks for your interest! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   all dealt with

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   I had some reservations about the image of Gardner being used, as it is in other Bach Cantatas which have GA status. There is perhaps some risk of Bach Cantata GA articles becoming stereotyped. But this is not a relevant deciding factor for GA. And as the editor points out, Gardner is quoted in the article.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Congrats!.--Smerus (talk) 12:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)--Smerus

   Thank you, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:16, 14 June 2013 (UTC)