Talk:Jerusalem/Archive 22

This is an archive of past discussions about Jerusalem. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 15

←

Archive 20

Tariq's version

I think Tariq's version is the best one and I think everyone should support it:

Jerusalem ( /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea, Jerusalem is Israel's largest city in both population and area, if East Jerusalem is included, with a population of 801,000 residents over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi). Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally.[ii]

Alertboatbanking (talk) 21:31, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

This version has much to commend it, but I think it is a serious problem to be throwing in "...if East Jerusalem is included..." in the lead, prior to any explanation of why East Jerusalem might not be included. ETA: Yes, I do appreciate that this is how it is in the current lead, but that doesn't make it not a serious problem. Formerip (talk) 22:10, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Its only that way now because occupied was edit-warred out. nableezy - 22:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Also the bit on the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power doesnt quite get it right. Palestine has already declared it as its capital, that is what should be said. nableezy - 22:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

And the first sentence is missing a conjunction. nableezy - 22:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Chill down with the fervor and think before posting, as its annoying to see you double triple posting.--Mor2 (talk) 23:50, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Know your role. I dont care what you think is annoying, and I havent shared with you what exactly I think about your "contributions" to the discussion. nableezy - 00:58, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

What's the rush? The RfArb seems to be focusing on a binding mediation or a binding RfC. Why do we need to jump the gun, conducting confusing parallel discussions? -- tariqabjotu 22:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

~~ArbCom isn't going to make deterministic rulings on content, that's outside of their remit. Content will (certainly should) always be referred back to the talk page.~~ Never mind, I misread that part about the binding RFC. Still, pre-emptive discussion surely couldn't hurt. – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 04:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

There are major issues with this suggestions, this article is not about Jerusalem religions importance, it is not about its geographical location but about the Jerusalem the Israeli municipal city. Furthermore it seems that everyone agree that Jerusalem is currently controlled and administered by Israel, who established its capital there. So any suggestion not starting with:

Jerusalem ( /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] (is the capital of Israel / Israeli city something capital/ variations of that) the reset...

and instead try to bury the topic of this article, in the middle of an paragraph, will not gain consensus.--Mor2 (talk) 23:50, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Much of Jerusalem is not Israeli in any meaning other than Israeli-occupied. nableezy - 00:58, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

You already said that before and I agreed i.e. yes the world doesn't agree with Israel annexation in 1980 and regard the territory as occupied. I also said that that doesn't change anything in regard to the article, occupied or not, it still Israeli i.e. Israel is doing the zoning and planing, policing, sanitation, transportation, education etc. So what is the point you are trying to make now?--Mor2 (talk) 04:15, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, you're using criteria that you have decided constitute a legitimate decision procedure for establishing whether something is Israeli. Content decisions can't be made that way here. I have a decision procedure that enables me to decide who is an idiot and yet annoyingly I am not allowed to deploy it in articles about living people who clearly meet the criteria. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:42, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't need to decided anything, only take a look at the article. Other than standard history section, this article is about the city of Jerusalemand the services it provides, within Israeli municipal borders. Continuing to ignore this basic reality doesn't constitute a 'legitimate decision procedure' and repeating once again the fact that East Jerusalem is considered occupied, wont change that or magically create another City council, Mayor and legislative bodies with power in those areas etc. So if you can take a step back, look at it again and hopefully acknowledged this basic realty(that everyone else already did), we can't proceed with trying to figure a better way to present the geopolitical controversy. --Mor2 (talk) 06:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

If you agree to the fact that Jerusalem is partly occupied, will you then agree to the article saying something along the lines of "Jerusalem is a city in Israel and Palestine, it is currently occupied by Israel and functions as Israels capital"? PerDaniel (talk) 08:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

You ask me to acknowledge a reality ? My opinion about what constitutes reality isn't relevant to anything here. If there ever comes a time where I start thinking my opinion about reality matters, I would urge editors to file a report and make sure that I am blocked to ensure that I can't contaminate an encyclopedia that is supposed to be based on reliable sources with my version of reality. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:06, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

@PerDaniel, Not 'in Palestine', even the Palestinian representative don't say that, but yes for Palestinian claim to it, and yes to the UN/world position in regard to Jerusalem. But I am not saying anything new, as I already said this before. If you have better wording which is informative to readers, reflect this article and more neutral please suggest it.

@Sean.hoyland, you mastered the art of Seinfeld. --Mor2 (talk) 18:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

it still Israeli i.e. Israel is doing the zoning and planing, policing, sanitation, transportation, education etc.

It would help if people familiarize themselves with the literature on Jerusalem before posting inane comments or generalizations like the above. Mosheh ʻAmirav's, Jerusalem Syndrome: The Palestinian-Israeli Battle for the Holy City, (2009) or any number of comparable books for the reality which is that Israel's policies do not run, but 'run down' or leave in neglect most of those 'services', and don't zone or plan anything for ther Arab population. A Supreme Court case last year was required to impose an obligation on the municipality to provide Palestinians there with equal opportunities for education. Nishidani (talk) 12:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Unless you suggesting that someone else is managing the city, your comment would be helpful only in one of the subsections presenting the POV that ISRAEL is doing a poor job of it.--Mor2 (talk) 18:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Cant support this proposal at all, we cannot just remove the fact this is a city in Israel / capital of Israel. If so the WHOLE article needs entirely changing. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:30, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Much of Jerusalem is not a city in Israel. I really do not get what is so difficult to understand about that. nableezy - 17:03, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm somewhat incredulous of the notion that perhaps the only city to have ever been the subject of a UN decision designating it as "a "separated body" with a special legal and political status, administered by the United Nations" under the circumstance of a yet to be resolved conflict should be introduced as if its status with respect to that conflict had been resolved.

Moreover, I'm interested in hearing specifically what sections of the article BritishWatcher is concerned about having to be rewritten. The scope of the article encompasses much more than the contentious point as to the current disposition of the city/cities.--Ubikwit (talk) 18:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Would a more concise 3-paragraph lead along the following lines be feasible?

Upon examining the remainder of the lead after receiving questions and comments regarding the above-proposed opening paragraph, it came to appear that the lead in its present form is not in a clearly defined relationship of correspondence to the main body of the article. It seems to me that three paragraphs might better accomplish the introduction of the material in the main body than five. I think that the lead can indeed be presented in a much more logical and concise manner with better coherence and readability than it has at present.

I've simply taken text that was already in the lead, slightly modified some passages (such as the Judaean Mountains name), rearranged sentences and deleted duplicate content with respect to the content presented in the opening paragraph, and added a sentence for balance (not a single Palestinian affiliated cultural institution is mentioned in the present lead).

I look forward to comments from those of you more familiar with more of the specifics as to whether this would be a feasible approach.

Paragraph 1

Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is a site of religious veneration connected to the founding of the three major monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Israel has established the seat of its government in the city, which was partitioned as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 1948, while claiming the entire city for its future undivided capital city. The international community, however, does not recognize the claims of the Israeli government, while the Palestinians claim the eastern part of the city--East Jerusalem--as the capital of a future sovereign and independent state of Palestine. The United Nations has identified Jerusalem as one of five core issues in the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Paragraph 2

During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE. In 1538, walls were built around Jerusalem under Suleiman the Magnificent. Today those walls define the Old City, which has been traditionally divided into four quarters—known since the early 19th century as the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters.[8] Despite having an area of only 0.9 square kilometres (0.35 sq mi),[19] the Old City is home to many sites of tremendous religious importance, among them the Temple Mount and it’s the Western Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque. The Old City became a World Heritage site in 1981, and is on the List of World Heritage in Danger. Modern Jerusalem has grown far beyond its boundaries.

Paragraph 3

Jerusalem is located in a mountain range that includes Mount Hebron (Judaean mountains/Jibal al-Khalil) stretching between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. The total population of the city, including East Jerusalem, is 801,000 residents, over an area of 125.1 km2(48.3 sq mi). According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, 208,000 Palestinians live in East Jerusalem. All branches of the Israeli government are located in Jerusalem, including the Knesset (Israel's parliament), the residences of the Prime Minister and President, and the Supreme Court. Jerusalem is home to the Hebrew University and to the Israel Museum with its Shrine of the Book. Jerusalem was designated the Arab Capital of Culture in 2009, and is home to the Palestinian National Theatre, The Edward Said National Conservatory of Music, and the Islamic Museum.

--Ubikwit (talk) 12:09, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

One nice point here in para 3 is that there is no mention of the nonsense which has proved refractory to removal despite its patently unhistorical character:

Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Jewish tradition since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c. 1000 BCE, and his son, King Solomon, commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.[10]

That's totally unverifiable, since the concept of 'holy city' (setting aide the issue of 'holiest city in Jewish tradition') is only recorded several centuries later, in the post-exilic period, in Deutero-Isaiah, to be exact), and the Tanakh says no such thing.Nishidani (talk) 13:25, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Interesting point. I wasn't aware of that detail, but it would seem to be an important detail.--Ubikwit (talk) 13:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Repetition in lead

Why are all these various sentences needed?

"...is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such"

"The international community does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and the city hosts no foreign embassies."

"The international community has rejected the latter annexation as illegal and treats East Jerusalem as Palestinian territory held by Israel under military occupation" Ankh.Morpork 11:26, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

There are two sentences which describe Israel's POV regarding its claim over Jerusalem as its capital:

"....is the capital of Israel,[neutrality is disputed]"
"Israel's Basic Law refers to Jerusalem as the country's "undivided capital""

Each explanation of the Israeli minority viewpoint obviously needs to be balanced with the overwhelming majority of global opinion per WP:NPOV.

The third sentence you quote is a related, though distinct concept that needs to be discussed in the lead. Note the difference between the capital city issue, and the issue of sovereignty over the territory and the illegality of Israel's annexation. Dlv999 (talk) 14:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Fully agree with AnkhMorpork. I do not know for any Wikipedia article where one negation is repeated in every 10 sentence.--Tritomex (talk) 21:48, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Since I consider the detailing of the current political stances re Jerusalem in the lead as excessive, and you state that it is the result of balancing Israeli claims that you list, would you consider the removal of Israel's Basic Law and concomitant "balancing" from the lead as satisfactory? Ankh.Morpork 18:42, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

No. nableezy - 19:27, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Why not? Can you explain to me what the addition of "though not internationally recognized as such" adds to the lead not already contained in the next couple of paragraphs? Can you make clear whether you think there is any repetition at all, and if yes, what justifies it. Ankh.Morpork 19:28, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm somewhat incredulous of your posing a question here regarding a key phrase to the dispute in a manner such as to ignore the fact that it is a qualifying phrase to the primary focus of the dispute, which is the inadmissible identity statement that precedes it, separated by a comma, and opens the lead. Since a majority of editors would seem to want that statement removed in light of WP: NPOV, maybe I'm not following you.

Why don't you propose an alternative text so that your intentions can be assessed in context? That might serve a purpose during the deliberations to be conducted during the RfC--Ubikwit (talk) 20:31, 23 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

A qualifying phrase is redundant when a qualifying paragraph is soon to follow. My point was why both were necessary, of course, some form of qualification is required. Ankh.Morpork 20:37, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

If the identity statement at the heart of the dispute wasn't present in the lead, there would be no need for any superfluous qualification. That forms part of the reasoning underpining the manner which I have adopted in attempting to present the elements pertaining to the defacto and dejure disposition with respect tot he past, present and future that involves no disputed assertions on the part of of any party, thereby prejudicing no party, and hopefully facilitating the creation of an article that is more approachable for the reader.--Ubikwit (talk) 10:19, 24 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

And now for a response that actual addresses my comment. "A qualifying phrase is redundant when a qualifying paragraph is soon to follow. My point was why both were necessary, of course, some form of qualification is required." Ankh.Morpork 15:00, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Jerusalem

Resolved by motion at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case that:

The community is asked to hold a discussion that will establish a definitive consensus on what will be included in the article Jerusalem (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), with a specific emphasis on the lead section and how Jerusalem is described within the current, contested geopolitical reality. As with all decisions about content, the policies on reliable sourcing and neutral point of view must be the most important considerations. The editors who choose to participate in this discussion are asked to form an opinion with an open mind, and to explain their decision clearly. Any editor who disrupts this discussion may be banned from the affected pages by any uninvolved administrator, under the discretionary sanctions already authorised in this topic area. The discussion will be closed by three uninvolved, experienced editors, whose decision about the result of the discussion will be binding for three years from the adoption of this motion.

For the Arbitration Committee, Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 22:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Discuss this

Recognizing (and reflecting) the suspended status in no uncertain terms

New here. Having read through some of these comments, it seems that the opening sentence of the lead is tantamount to tilting the perception of the reader in a manner such as to impart the impression that Israel is only temporarily not recognized under international law by the international community, but that their lawyers are working on that and will have the matter taken care of in not time. One editor has favored the term "dejure" in describing the city as the capital of Israel, and another has tried to emphasize that the article is more about administration of the municipality than history or political status. Those would seem to be clearly biased POV positions. I don't have the time to go through this presently, nor do I have an alternative to propose, but it would appear to be self-apparent from a grammatical standpoint that using the verb "is" in the univocal opening sentence serves to substantiate Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in a manner such as to circumvent admission of the surrounding controversy. That would seem to be maybe a little duplicitous, as it amounts to a surreptitious representation of the hoped for outcome of the real world state of affairs as promoted by editors favoring that outcome, in disregard of the countervailing circumstances.

The statement by PerDaniel seems accurate with respect to the fact that the current opening prioritizes the Israeli agenda over and against the declared position of the Palestinians vis-a-vis East Jerusalem, as well as that of the international community, and therefore constitutes a non-neutral POV.

Firstly because the minority POV is mentioned first, and secondly because using the word "is" (in the first clause) we are declaring that it belongs to Israel. To qoute WP:NPOV: "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts".

Clearly the issue of the city's (cities?)has not been settled, so why shouldn't the opening sentence more accurately reflect that circumstance?--Ubikwit (talk) 11:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

And, again, this entire comment is predicated on the idea that recognition makes a city a capital. The idea that Jerusalem is actually the capital of Israel and that the rest of the world doesn't recognize Jerusalem as legally the capital of Israel are not necessarily mutually exclusive statements. If you are in the camp that detests the current wording, they are as you believe recognition or legality makes the capital. But if you're in the camp that's fine with the current wording, they aren't as you do not believe recognition or legality makes the capital. This is a central issue. Neither belief has really been explicitly substantiated by sources, so it is wrong to flatly state that those for the current wording are violating NPOV, as it is wrong to flatly state those against it are violating NPOV. It's a matter of interpretation.

From my perspective, the onus is on those against the current wording to provide substance to their interpretation to get the wording changed. But even if we were to start at zero and assume both sides have an equal responsibility to prove their interpretation is correct, that has proven to be an impossible task for those in support of the current wording, as our proofs by omission have been stymied by claims of WP:SYNTH, when not being attacked by suggestions that those making them are just Israeli apologists. I feel that if the interpretation made by those against the wording was actually correct, it'd be much easier to demonstrate. Find a source that says, because of the lack of recognition, that Israel has no capital, we'd find the counterpoint to the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". Find a source that says, because of the location of embassies or because Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem is illegal, etc, that Tel Aviv is actually the capital of Israel, we'd find the counterpoint to the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". But repeated requests for such have not been fulfilled.

Now, this isn't to say I'm against any change to the current wording. I'm perfectly happy with an in-between, although not one as pithy and uninformative as in most sources, that allows the reader to draw their own conclusions based on the points (that Israel claims Jerusalem as its capital, that Israel's government is focused there, and that most countries don't recognized Israel's claim) that in sum have led to the conclusions on both sides. Readers can decide for themselves what they believe is or is not relevant. I've come to this conclusion less because I believe those supporting change have ever given a convincing reason for their allegations that the statement "Jerusalem is the capital" is against any of our policies, but because (aside from decreasing the likelihood of someone complaining about the article) it's more informative than what we currently have. I, for example, would not definitively say, from the perspective of someone with no background knowledge, that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" juxtaposed with "although it's not internationally recognized as such" implies that Israel's government is situated in Jerusalem. -- tariqabjotu 18:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Tariq, I'm not sure your description of the various positions captures everything. I oppose the current statement of fact because it's inconsistent with the numerous sources that don't present the information as a statement of fact. Why some sources don't present it as a statement of fact doesn't matter. All that matters on this specific "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" statement is that there is an inconsistency between us and them. That's enough to show that there is something wrong from a policy perspective. Whether recognition or anything else makes a city a capital isn't relevant to the statement of fact issue at all. Whether lack of recognition is why some sources present it as a claim doesn't matter. Recognition is a separate issue. Even if every single source agreed that recognition is required and a city cannot be a capital without recognition, we would still have to deal with the "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" statement the same way we have to deal with it now, by changing it so that it reflects the way the diversity of sources present the information. We would still not be allowed to say "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel" on the basis that it is not recognized. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

That's a convincing reason and reasonable approach, but that's not the approach most have been taking. -- tariqabjotu 19:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Actually, the more I think about it, they stranger your approach sounds. It's still fine -- as I said I'm already OK with rewording the first paragraph -- but it's a bit unorthodox to say that even though some sources say X, because many/most other sources don't say X, we can't say X -- even if there are no sources that say X is not true. Unorthodox, but I'll let it slide as it's not worth my time to argue against a point in order to keep something I'm fine dropping. -- tariqabjotu 20:35, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Well Tariq omitted what for me is the most important consideration, the semantic ambiguity of 'Jerusalem', which in Israeli usage is a unified city, and in international usage refers to a divided city (Seddon's definition, which I've cited elsewhere). It follows that the NPOV character of any generalization must be calibrated against this fact, which has nothing to do with recognition, but with the contested denotation of the term Jerusalem. When Ben-Gurion declared Jerusalem its capital in 1949 ('Jerusalem is an integral part of Israel and its eternal capital'), was he asserting that Jerusalem across the Jordanian cease-fire lines, in Jordanian-held territory, was part of Israel? No. He was declaring that 'West Jerusalem' was the capital of Israel. The occupation from 1967 onwards changed one thing. Israel extended its denotation to include East Jerusalem, so that 'Jerusalem' in the Israeli POV refers thereafter to the whole city. The word 'Jerusalem' however, in international usage, is inflected by conflicting land claims to title, meaning that the city remains a divided city, and as a consequence, East Jerusalem cannot be called part of Israel, because it is, as a matter of fact and law, not in the state of Israel. Even the ostensible annexation law is questioned as not in fact annexation (Ian Lustick). So assertions that (undivided) Jerusalem is the capital of Israel is to assert that Israel has its capital partially in a foreign country, which is without precedent.Nishidani (talk) 10:28, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Copied from my statement at the current arbitration request:

After the 1967 War, the UN passed a series of resolutions stating that any current or past unilateral Israeli attempts to change the status of Jerusalem, East and West, were invalid, including Israel's Basic Law of 1980 which declared Jerusalem its capital.

As one example, see Resolution 478 of 1980: "[the UN Security Council] determines that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which have altered or purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, and in particular the recent 'basic law' on Jerusalem, are null and void and must be rescinded forthwith." As another example, see Resolution 267 of 1969: "that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel which purport to alter the status of Jerusalem, including expropriation of land and properties thereon, are invalid and cannot change that status." (see article Positions on Jerusalem)

Accordingly, the UK government, for example, takes the position that: "... no state has sovereignty over Jerusalem. The UK believes that the city's status has yet to be determined, and maintains that it should be settled in an overall agreement between the parties concerned." One recent demonstration of the disputed status of Jerusalem was at the London Olympics, where the BBC listed Jerusalem as the seat of government, rather than capital, of Israel (and East Jerusalem as the intended seat of government of Palestine). Another concerned a complaint made to the UK Press Complaints Commission about The Guardian stating that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. The Commission ruled that there had been no breach of its code (The Guardian subsequently updated its style guide so that it no longer calls Tel Aviv Israel´s capital, instaed just stating that Jerusalem should not be referred to as the capital of Israel).

← ZScarpia 18:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok. And? What are you responding to and what conclusion are you drawing from this? I don't think anyone in these discussions has not seen the text of UN Resolution 478 and I, at least, have seen the other sources already. None of these statements are tantamount to saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is false. -- tariqabjotu 18:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, as you can see from the indentation, it's a response to your comment. And? It shows that, as far as "the international community" is concerned, Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel, nor, East or West, Israeli territory. On Wikipedia, facts are things that reliable sources agree on. If something is disputed, it must be presented as an opinion rather than a fact. Your comments indicate that you can't get your head round that (an odd state of affairs for an admin). To you, it is a fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital and that is the way it should be presented in the article. To you, the contrary views make no difference to it being a fact. However, your view of what a fact is and Wikipedia´s definition of what a fact is don´t mesh. Here, the contrary views do matter. Your "fact" is only an opinion. Your comments also indicate that you can´t get your head round what the presentation of the status of Jerusalem in terms of opinions means or what the aim of those opposing you is. Stating that it is the Israeli view that Jerusalem is Israel´s capital doesn´t mean that Jerusalem is not Israel´s capital. ← ZScarpia 19:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Putting aside your minority stance that not even West Jerusalem is considered Israeli territory today, if you're going to take the stance that "Most countries don't recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital" is equivalent to "Most countries believe Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel", you're going to need a source that says that. Your sources support the first statement -- which has been in the first sentence for years and in the article since its inception -- but they do not support the second. You'll have to find a source that says recognition makes a city a capital. Or you're going to have to find a source that says, based on the lack of recognition, some other city is the actual capital of Israel or that Israel actually has no capital at all. Unless you can do that -- and I don't believe you can -- I suggest you stick to Sean's approach, perhaps the only presented here that could necessitate a change to the lead while not requiring proof [which doesn't seem to exist] that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is false. -- tariqabjotu 20:28, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

It astonishes me that, after so many years, you still can't understand what the arguments being made in opposition to yours are. That includes mine and Sean's, which, I think, is the closest to mine of any editor here. The sources I provided show that the status of Jerusalem, including its status as a capital, is disputed. The UN resolutions say that any Israeli acts which change the status of Jerusalem, including the Basic Law, which declared Jerusalem Israel´s capital, are not valid. As far as UN member states are concerned, actually, Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel, which is why the guidelines for The Guardian and the BBC state that Jerusalem should not be referred to in that way. Wikipedia policies being what they are, therefore, you can't state as a fact rather than an opinion that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, as is done in the first part of the sentence (though you can state that it is the declared capital of Israel or the capital under Israeli law as no sources would dispute that). The sources I provided don´t support the first part of the sentence in any way. I am curious to know how you derived that opinion. Given that you seem to be having extreme difficulty understanding editors' viewpoints which oppose yours, perhaps you're having difficulty understanding the sources too? When something is disputed, the neutrality rule says that all significant sides should be presented and presented in the form of opinions. What is proscribed is editors arguing that the opinion of the side they support is the true one and presenting it as a fact. That is what your argument about what makes a city a capital, for which there aren't any fixed criteria in any case, amounts to. The name for that is point-of-view pushing. Minority? Oh right! You quickly deleted the last source quotation you provided to try and argue that, my guess being that you might have had an inkling that it tended to oppose, rather than support, your argument. ← ZScarpia 10:18, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The sources I provided don´t support the first part of the sentence in any way. I am curious to know how you derived that opinion.

You're shooting yourself in the foot. You're accusing me of "having extreme difficulty understanding editors' viewpoints", and then you make that statement. I did not say what you said I did in the comment you're responding to. You're misunderstanding a central tenet of my comment, which suggests you didn't understand any part of my comment. Let me repeat what I did say:

...if you're going to take the stance that "Most countries don't recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital" is equivalent to "Most countries believe Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel", you're going to need a source that says that. Your sources support the first statement...

In other words, I see a difference between not recognizing the status of a city as capital and believing it's not, as a point of fact, the capital. You don't see a difference, as you've suggested repeatedly. From my perspective "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" and "Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as the capital of Israel" are not mutually exclusive, as recognition doesn't decide the status of the city; from your perspective, they are. This difference of opinion then points back to my comment at 18:03, December 20; absent any evidence that your interpretation is correct and absent any sources that explicitly state that regardless of the indicators that generally denote capital status (national proclamation, placement of government), because of the lack of recognition, Jerusalem is not the capital or that some other city is actually the capital, you have no basis to denounce the opposing view as just an Israeli POV. Your sources do not provide such evidence, and yet you are speaking about them as if they do.

So, we are left with some sources that say Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, many sources that waffle about the issue, and no sources that say Jerusalem is not the capital. In that case, you are left to argue that either (a) we should put "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" because it is supported by some sources and negated by none (my position) or (b) we should waffle about the issue simply because most sources do (how I understand Sean's position). The staunch assertion, though, that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is a minority, Israel POV is without basis, considering you have yet to present reliable sources that negate the point -- as I requested you to do more than a month ago.

Minority? Oh right! You quickly deleted the last source quotation you provided to try and argue that...

I have no idea what you're talking about. -- tariqabjotu 17:11, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

"... many sources that waffle about the issue, and no sources that say Jerusalem is not the capital."

I'm guessing that the sources doing the "waffling" are the ones which present the situation in terms of points of view, Israeli and otherwise. That is, they're describing the disputed status of Jerusalem (which, under the neutrality policy, the article should also be doing).

Question of Palestine and the United Nations (Revised Edition, 2008) - the United Nations, Chapter 12: "When Israel took steps to make a united Jerusalem its capital, the Security Council on 30 June 1980 adopted resolution 476 (1980) urgently calling on Israel, the occupying Power, to abide by this and previous Security Council resolutions and to desist forthwith from persisting in the policy and measures affecting the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem. After Israel's non-compliance with the resolution, the Council, on 20 August, adopted resolution 478 (1980),in which it reiterated the position that all actions altering the status of the city were null and void, and called upon States that had established diplomatic missions in Jerusalem to withdraw them. ... The General Assembly has annually revisited the question of Jerusalem. In resolution 61/26 adopted at its sixty-first session on 1 December 2006, the Assembly determined that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel which have altered or purported to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, in particular the so-called "Basic Law" and the proclamation of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, were null and void." The UN resolutions indicate that, as far as the international community is concerned, Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel. That has been repeated time after time, yet you're still trying to assert that "no sources that say Jerusalem is not the capital" or that none have been supplied.

"In other words, I see a difference between not recognizing the status of a city as capital and believing it's not, as a point of fact, the capital. However, as the resolutions show, as far as the international community is concerned, Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel. It's not just a matter of not having recognised the Israeli position, they have actively said that the Israeli position is "null and void". That is another point that has been repeated time after time.

"... recognition doesn't decide the status of the city." That's a political judgement which has no basis in policy. It is, since it's being used to bolster a point-of-view, point-of-view pushing.

← ZScarpia 00:48, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

To sum your post, you simply referenced UN security council Resolution 478 and one of the general assembly yearly auto votes. Few quick notes(no time) a) as was noted many times before, there is no argument that Jerusalem Law was not recognized by the UN, or that Jerusalem is subject of geopolitical controversy. b) Can you backup your claim that "recognition doesn't decide the [capital] status of the city." is a "political judgement which has no basis in policy"? because all the indicators tariqabjotu noted fit perfectly with the definition of Capital City. --Mor2 (talk) 01:42, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, to sum up part of my post more accurately, I quoted from a chapter about the status of Jerusalem from a book published by the UN which is about Palestine and the UN. As I wrote, the quotes show that as far as the international community is concerned, Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel. The international community's position is that any Israeli acts which attempt to change the status of Jerusalem, which includes declaring Jerusalem Israeli territory and the capital of Israel, have no standing. All the editors taking the Israeli position on the status of Jerusalem seem to be trying to pretend that non-recognition means something other than it does mean.

The neutrality rule requires that things that are disputed, such as that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, are not presented as statements of fact. That "recognition doesn't decide the [capital] status of the city" is an opinion being put forward as to argue that the Israeli position is a "fact", despite the international community's position that Jerusalem is neither Israeli or the capital of Israel. That is, it's contravening the neutrality rule.

"... all the indicators tariqabjotu noted fit perfectly with the definition of Capital City." Well, there is no single, fixed definition of what a capital city is, isn't there? Have a look at the Capital City disambiguation page you linked to which notes that there are exceptions to the general rules. Also note that it says capital cities are "the area of a country, province, region, or state regarded as enjoying primary status." Firstly, Jerusalem is seen widely as not being part of the Israeli country or state. Secondly, the word "regarded" indicates that, as with Israel, what constitutes a country's capital may be a matter or subjective opinion. Your opinion, and tariqabjotu's, are only opinions, opinions which you are trying, in contravention of the neutrality rule, to foist on the article as a fact. Either follow the rules or go and start an encyclopedia of your own, where you can indulge your views, and ignore those of others, as much as you like.

← ZScarpia 19:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I was trying to hint that you can simply state your argument by referencing the res.(because we all know what it says and especially since you already quoted it in the post before that as well..)

As for the rest, the only people who try pretend something about the meaning of 'UN non-recognition' are those who say that the 'UN recognize Jerusalem a Palestinian capital' at the same breath. The fact is that all of those resolutions worded carefully on the legal and silver lined with a reference to 'peace process'(including 478). The UN position is that Jerusalem issues should be resolved by the parties involved and that's all. Jerusalem is Israeli(defacto), as such you see resolutions like 478 that make sure it doesn't become dejure, stating that they will not see unilateral moves to alter its status. Not because they have trouble with the definition of capital city(like you do) or care which one of you put claim to it. --Mor2 (talk) 06:58, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Btw Ubikwit, you know that there is whole article that deals exclusively with political/legal positions, instead of the city it self? --Mor2 (talk) 18:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Content forking does not relieve us of the responsibility of outlining an overview on the main topic page. Welcome Ubikwit! ClaudeReigns (talk) 20:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome, ClaudeReigns, and to Mor2 for the tip on the existence of that article.

I meant to write a couple of brief abstract comments and once I started looking at the pages I ended up spending an hour or more writing the following comment. It will be apparent, I would imagine, that I haven't read a lot of sources on the topic, but believe I am familiar enough with the basics to contribute something that may move the discussion forward.

I can see that this is going to take some sustained study and effort, but I'm sure there must be a way to either find a compromise solution or at least expose the fault lines for what they are, which may contribute to explicating the real world scenario in a manner that facilitates a better presentation of the subject matter. I just found the Positions on Jerusalem article, and having read the first paragraph or so, am of the opinion that the lead of this article should reflect the content of that article instead of pretending that the disposition of the city has been defacto and dejure settled.

Since I am not familiar with the specifics, I will try to restrict this comment in response to Tariq to more abstract issues.

I think that the notion that

Readers can decide for themselves what they believe is or is not relevant.

is important to the discussion, because of both the various possible dispositions the city/cities could take on in the future, and because of the linguistic mode of presenting that to the reader.

Why I am opposed to the positivistic attribution of the current sentence is because it implies that the status of Jerusalem is fundamentally established in a semi-permanent way, only awaiting "recognition". That presents an existential status to the reader that does not reflect the complexity of the situation in a manner such as to "decide what they believe is relevant or not".

To me, it is not even clear, given the historical relevance of the city, that the attribute of its contested status as capital city of Israel belongs in the opening sentence. If you put that in the opening sentence, you cut off some avenues of explicated the complexities of the history as it relates to the potential configurations that might take form in the future.

In fact, at a glance it seems to me the opening sentence should start with the phrase, "Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world," because that immediately opens up the historical horizon of the city for the consideration of the reader, whereas the current version of the sentence closes that horizon off.

It seem that the force with which government of Israel is trying to present the city as its undivided capital city represents an attempt to efface history, and the opening sentence in its current form would seem to support that, insofar as, once again, it closes off the routes of considering the alternatives to that unilateral, highly unlikely hoped for outcome of the Israeli government with respect to the eventual disposition of the city.

The solution I think lies in some phrasing that presents the temporal horizon of the current control of the city by the government of Israel against the broader historical horizon, with oblique reference to the most likely courses of progress toward an eventual compromise disposition of the city at some point in the future. And that is complicated by the Jerusalem-East Jerusalem division, annexation, etc. ::But to allow the opening sentence to state in a substantiating manner that the entire city is the capital of Israel would seem somewhat misleading (and perhaps not neutral) as to the reality of the situation. That is why the use of the phrase "dejure", in particular, is something I feel compelled to take issue with--though I am not an attorney--because would seem to be dejure only with respect to the laws promulgated by the government of Israel, which would appear not to be recognized as having force under international law. Does international law have "force"? That may soon be found out if the Palestinians go to the ICJ, but I don't know whether even an attorney could answer that in a definitive manner.

Just looking further at the lead paragraph, from a literary/rhetoric point of view, the introduction of East Jerusalem would seem rather disjointed. Why is there not a prior mention that the city is divided in the first place? Again, this would seem to support the agenda of the Israeli government to present it as unified, which in turn is another means to substantiate their claims on the entire city. And that is further supported by the statement that, "It is Israels largest city... if East Jerusalem is included." This sentences, too, effaces the historical status of the city. What does a phrase like, "if East Jerusalem is included" do there. Well, it might indicate to an astute reader that there is more to the picture than meets the eye, but it might cause another reader simply to gloss over the issue of the existence of East Jerusalem as a non-issue.

Is there no better way to introduce the existence of "East Jerusalem". That is perhaps the crux of the problem. The existence of East Jerusalem is in fact something that the Israeli government would seem to be intent on changing by integrating East Jerusalem with Jerusalem, wiping the brief existence of East Jerusalem out of the collective memory before the Palestinians with the support of the international community make the division permanent in a two-state solution. Anyway, that is a major controversy that is being glossed over, it would seem.

I'm inclined to think that there is a possibility that the continued existence of "East Jerusalem" as such and the status of Jerusalem as the "undivided capital city of Israel" may not be compatible in view of the position of the government of Israel vis-a-vis the disposition of the city/cities of Jerusalem (/East Jerusalem), but perhaps that is obfuscated in the lead.

The inclusion of the word "also" in the end sentence of the opening paragraph, "Jerusalem is also a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam" would seem to subordinate the substantial historical import and actual religious status of the city to the political claims being pushed by the current government of Israel.

OK, well, I intended to just write a couple of theoretical statements and have ended up doing a preliminary analysis, so I'm going to make some preliminary comments on some specifics.

From a quick check of the Judaean Mountains article, it seems that they span Palestinian territory as well. Do the Palestinians call them the Judaean Mountains, too? If not, then one would assume the naming convention would only apply if Israel had sovereignty over the entire mountain range. Maybe Hebron Hills is more neutral? Maybe geography and demographics could be moved to the second paragraph.

In lieu of the forgoing, it seems to me that maybe the entire first paragraph be dedicated to concisely explicating the current scenario against the complex history, with an eye to the future. That in itself seems a rather difficult task, but the present version seem to me a disjointed effort that deprecates the historical background and fails to foreground the most likely possibilities for an eventual compromise disposition in favor of presenting a hypostacized version of the present.

I should read more about these issues (including the related Talk pages), but I don't think I will have much time for that in the near future, so I will probably be more of a follower than active participant on this article, excepting the unlikely event that these thoughts generate some impetus. --Ubikwit (talk) 20:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

This article is not about the capital city of Israel, nor about History of Jerusalem but about the Jersualem city. Since you think that its historical relevance is not explored enough, I decided to drill down of what we have in the lead of this article:

First Paragraph: Introduction, providing a basic overview of the city article(see also infobox)
Second Paragraph: Stipulate the city Historic roots.
Third Paragraph: Stipulate the city long religious significance to Jews,Christian and Muslims.
Fourth Paragraph: Stipulate the city current status as a core issue in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.
Fifth Paragraph: Points Palestinian stake in East Jerusalem.
Six Paragraph: Something notable I presume.--Mor2 (talk) 23:31, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Not that it isn't worth discussing, but maybe discussion of the extent to which Jerusalem can be divorced from its history and the overall structure of the article could be moved to its own section. Formerip (talk) 01:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I think what Ubikwit was saying was that the semantics which we use in the lead section have a certain power which should be minded and respected. A single word can the shift balance. I had also mentioned earlier how the brief mention of East Jerusalem in the smallest way promotes a divided city. I think what he's saying is, it's a divided city - don't hedge.

Mor2 has given a rundown of when we do have. Here's what we should have in the most general terms:

Define the topic
Establish context
Explain why the topic is notable
Summarize the most important points-including any prominent controversies

My understanding was that we promote the capital controversy because it also speaks to notability. Trivial basic facts are also something which add flavor to lead sections and are suggested. I suggest that since he has an elegant pen for such things, we should invite Ravpapa to edit for flavor once we decide how we will present the harder aspects of lead. ClaudeReigns (talk) 01:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

@Formerip, The point wasn't to discuss the article structure, but note the lead structure. Contrary to what it may seem to anyone following the discussion, the lead is composed from more than just the first sentence. --Mor2 (talk) 23:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Ubikwit draft

I see that several of the issues have been discussed above (even though I’ve yet to read through all comments). Let me just clarify that as ClaudeReigns stated, there are a number of semantics issues that relate to neutrality, as well as some syntactical points that are important to the presentation of the content.

At least until the present dispute between the government of Israel and the Palestnians/international community over the disposition of the city is resolved, the opening paragraph should present the current situation in the broader context of the history of the city. I see that several drafts that do open with the statements situating Jerusalem with respect to historical aspects that are reflect the priorities I have suggested.

Does Israel have administrative facilities in East Jerusalem?

Is there some phrasing other than “is considered holy” that reflects the religious import without embracing monotheism by the use of terms such as holy? Same for Abrahamic, something more generic seems more neutral in respect of the status of Jesus and Muhammad to the second and third religions on the list.

Here is a quick draft of a lead intended to be more concise as well as inclusive, and less controversial. I have tried to present the relevant aspects in a manner that would facilitate their explication and access in the main text with better readability with respect to each of the various views on the respective issues.

Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is an object of religious veneration in relation to its connection to the founding of each of the three major monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Israel has established the seat of its government in the western part of the city, which was partitioned as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 1948, while claiming the entire city for its future undivided capital city. The international community does not recognize the claims of the Israeli government, and the Palestinians claim the eastern part of the city--East Jerusalem--as the capital of the future state of Palestine. A sentence introducing demographics and geography could be tacked onto the above paragraph or integrated into another paragraph that introduces those in a more comprehensive manner integrated with other modern characteristics of the city.

--Ubikwit (talk) 04:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Seems like an improvement. Some thoughts and concerns:

The first sentence is a bit wordy. Could it be more concise?
I believe Palestine claims all of Jerusalem as its capital, just as Israel does, not just East Jerusalem.
Palestine is already a "state" (according to most of the world); it just isn't a sovereign and independent state.

Kaldari (talk) 04:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

A diplomatic nuance: one may believe based on previous reliable sources that Palestine claims all of Jerusalem as its capital. A recent contrast may be found. According to Ynetnews, as of 29 Nov 2012, Abbas' stated position is that "the Palestinians will not accept anything less than an independent state with east Jerusalem as its capital on all territories occupied in 1967"

Benhorin, Yitzhak. General Assembly recognizes Palestine as observer state Ynetnews 30 Nov 2012

Would this, if believed, represent a shift in position? Is it reliable? Does it have any weight? ClaudeReigns (talk) 10:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment. I hope I'm up to this task. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ubikwit (talk • contribs) 20:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

How's this (changes bolded)?

Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is a site of religious veneration connected to the founding of the three major monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Israel has established its seat of its government in the western part of the city, which was partitioned as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 1948, while claiming the entire city for its future undivided capital city. The international community does not recognize the claims of the Israeli government, and the Palestinians claim the eastern part of the city--East Jerusalem--as the capital of a future sovereign and independent state of Palestine.

I replaced the definite article with the indefinite before the mention of the "the state of Palestine" on the basis of the intimate connection of the resolution of the question of the status of Jerusalem to the as yet somewhat tenuous "two-state" solution, but I'm not sure that's accurate.

Here's an alternative draft of the first sentence.

Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is an object of religious veneration as a site connected to the founding of the three major monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

--Ubikwit (talk) 06:24, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Strongly oppose this proposal which seeks to completely change the introduction and would have implications for the entire article, fundamentally changing the way these matters have been handled for MANY years. If people seek to push ahead with such radical changes, then they better be prepared for the article to need entirely rewriting. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I understand. It seems like this is going to change everything. I can't guarantee that the article won't need some further revision. I just ask that you remain patient a little while longer as the semantic equation is being worked out in anticipation of a second draft to add some lightness and warmth to the tone. If you are still uncomfortable at that point, then let's talk about those further changes. I don't want to make assumptions about how you foresee them. Is that okay, BritishWatcher? ClaudeReigns (talk) 11:06, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The whole process is going to be deeply flawed anyway so it is hard not to look at this situation with a lack of confidence. It seems now that 3 administrators will decide the outcome by decree. An absolutely terrible method that entirely undermines everything that wikipedia is meant to be about.

Just as long as people recognise the fundamental nature of the changes that are going to be needed if the changes being talked about are implemented. This is no longer about the basic wording of the first paragraph or introduction as a whole. This is about if this entire article after many many years should be changed to no longer treat Jerusalem as a city in Israel. I dont think people quite realise the magnitude of the potential change that is being required if that is altered, it will will have far reaching consequences not just for this article but numerous articles on wikipedia. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that the proposed lead obscures the fact that, "Jerusalem is a city in Israel", but that statement about Jerusalem is something of a loaded statement, and only represents only a slice of the scope of the significance of Jerusalem and its status as a city/cities. I do not see how the proposed change to the lead--of which there have been similar versions proposed heretofore by others--preculdes the adequate treament of Jerusalem as a city in Israel, along with the treatment of Jerusalem as all of the other aspects of the city that should be presented. --Ubikwit (talk) 12:48, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Let's suppose, without looking too far ahead, that you could write the very next passage in the lead section. I am interested to hear what you would say. You may wish to speak of Jerusalem as an Israeli city. I think the object would be to speak to a number of facts which indicate Israel's de facto position and things as they stand. You may also remember that trivia is allowed and welcome in the lead section. How would it go? ClaudeReigns (talk) 11:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe the approach we should take to the first paragraph should be along these lines..

"Jerusalem is capital of Israel, though not internationally recognised as such. It’s future status remains one of the core issues of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with the Palestinians claiming East Jerusalem as the capital of a future sovereign and independent State of Palestine. It is one of the oldest cities in the world and is located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. Jerusalem is also a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam."

I have no view or preference in terms of how the religious sentence should be handled or if it is needed in that first sentence, but im just working from the current paragraph and the proposal above trying to alter it as a compromise. Removing the specific mention of the population / area size, which could be handled better in the later paragraphs of the introduction where the whole dispute is gone into in more detail in terms of if East Jerusalem is or isnt included. But the opening two sentences state the position fairly in my view without forcing this article to be radically changed throughout after many years of one style. Id also not object to it just saying Palestinians claiming Jerusalem rather than East Jerusalem if that is more accurate. But i believe to try and avoid stating Jerusalem is currently in Israel would be far too problematic for the whole article and not reflect the reality of the situation. Just because some countries do not recognise something, does not mean it does not exist. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Jerusalem largely is not in Israel. That is the reality of the situation. nableezy - 15:53, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

"Just because some countries do not recognise something, does not mean it does not exist": No one is trying to deny that Jerusalem exists, the problem is where it exists. According to most sources it exists on the internationally accepted boundary between Israel and a palestinian state which may or may not control part of it in the future. By using the phrase "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", we (wikipedia) are saying that it rightfully belongs to Israel. This is not in line with WP:NPOV. Just because one change will cause a lot of change in other articles is no reason to break core principles. PerDaniel (talk) 13:29, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

By using the phrase "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", we (wikipedia) are saying that it rightfully belongs to Israel.

Ugh. That conclusion is nowhere in that sentence. If you infer that, it's your fault. -- tariqabjotu 15:22, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Which is why one of the motivations for at least some of the people supportive of the current wording is because Jerusalem is in Israel or Jerusalem is an Israeli city. Must be our fault for seeing that. nableezy - 15:53, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, that is a complete misrepresentation and misapplication of BritishWatcher's point. I'll leave it to him to explain why, if he so chooses. -- tariqabjotu 18:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

this is not about who is right or wrong in terms of the final status, which is why i proposed including that wording making it very clear its future status remains part of the conflict. It is about reality on the ground, and the massive changes that would be required to this article and many others if all of a sudden we decided that wikipedia will not explain the situation in the way it does. I fail to see how my proposed wording of the first two sentence is in any way a violation of NPOV, it states boths sides point of view and the fact that its future remains up for negotiation. Its not so much the is Jerusalem the capital of Israel or not, its more the city in Israel bit. It does not take long looking through the article to find dozens of things that would need changing, if we change things to a situation where we do not say if this is a city in Israel or not. We cannot say Jerusalem might be a city in Israel or it might be a city in Palestine. We can be clear that the future remains to be decided. But the first sentence of this article must not overlook the fact that it is the defacto, dejure capital of Israel. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:48, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Im not talking about a final status. The current status is that East Jerusalem is Palestinian territory that Israel has held under military occupation since 1967. East Jerusalem is not in Israel, and if you want to have an article about an Israeli city you need to remove everything on East Jerusalem, including the Old City. Your final sentence is confusing to me, as it is de jure the capitol of Israel only under Israeli law. It is, at least EJ, de jure occupied Palestinian territory under international law. And Tariq, you still think I was misrepresenting his position (or Mor2's for that matter)? nableezy - 19:07, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, why don't you just ask him if he believes all of Jerusalem rightfully belongs to Israel (or, rather, that the article should say that)? So far, I don't see anything suggesting he's saying that. From my understanding, he's saying we can't pretend as if half of the city is not currently Israeli, i.e. pretend that Jerusalem functions as a divided city. While the ideas of West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem do exist and have legal importance, they are not two separate cities with two separate governments. They are not divided by walls. Jerusalem is a single city, and we shouldn't ascribe excessive weight to the idea that it was, and perhaps might be again, divided. If we were to imply otherwise (and I'm not sure the proposals are really suggesting that), then we'd have to drastically change the article. -- tariqabjotu 22:17, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

None of my previous comments have anything to do with it rightly belonging to anybody, so Im unsure who you are supposed to be replying to. What he has said, and what Mor2 has said, is that it currently is Israeli or in Israel. Which is what I would expect a reader to think when they see this article. No, there are not any walls dividing Jerusalem, but that does not mean that the Green Line does not exist or that a large portion of Jerusalem is in the Palestinian territories. I havent said that this article should remove material related to EJ, what I said is if people insist on having this article take the position that Jerusalem is strictly Israeli or in Israel then material on locations that are not in Israel or Israeli in any sense other than Israeli-occupied should be removed. Which was what I was trying to get at earlier with my question What is Jerusalem?. If Jerusalem is (1) whatever Israel defines as being Jerusalem, city limits, ring neighborhoods, united capital ..., then nobody can argue with a straight face that an article that takes the Israeli position represent[s] fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. If Jerusalem is (2) a city that straddles the Green Line between Israel and the Palestinian territories then the lead should reflect that. And if Jerusalem is (3) only what is in Israel, then everything on its history prior to the 20s and everything east of the Green Line should not be in this article. People seem to want to take 3's position for the first sentence but have the rest of 2's content included, minus the pesky bits about Palestinians and international law. nableezy - 02:01, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

None of my previous comments have anything to do with it rightly belonging to anybody

Okay, but you see, it's not all about you. I responded to PerDaniel's comment about "Jerusalem is the capital" meaning Jerusalem is rightfully Israel's. If you didn't disagree with my comment, you probably should not have responded or at least not said, and I quote:

Which is why one of the motivations for at least some of the people supportive of the current wording is because Jerusalem is in Israel or Jerusalem is an Israeli city. Must be our fault for seeing that.

I assumed you don't just ejaculate one of your trademark quips every time you see me comment, and actually say something relevant to the discussion. Spare me the step where you explain how your words meant something totally different from what you said; I'm not interested. -- tariqabjotu 02:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Tariq, if you cant spend the time to read and understand what people write then you should really stop complaining about others distorting your view or attributing to you the views of others who arrive at the same conclusion as you. Otherwise, somebody might get a certain, Im sure mistaken, impression about the quality of your character. I meant what I wrote, and you seemingly choose to ignore that to argue against an easier position to discredit. Something that you have, repeatedly, found insulting when people do it you. Theres that impression forming again. nableezy - 02:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

But it seems that the sources provided above by ZScarpia are basically being ignored, for starters, and even by attempting to push a statement that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel you are pushing a POV that the conflict has been resolved in favor of the position of the Israeli government, and that cannot possibly be considered a balanced presentation of the situation with a neutral point of view.

What are your objections to my characterization in terms of

"Israel has established the seat of its government in the city"?

That introduces the state of affairs in a balanced manner with a neutral point of view and accommodates the further presentation of the various standpoints of all parties concerned in the main body of the article, serving as a reference that frames the more detailed discussion in the main body.--Ubikwit (talk) 19:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

The problem with that phrase is that it isnt true. Israel has built government buildings in East Jerusalem, for example the Ministry of Public Security. nableezy - 19:25, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, I've removed "western part of the" from that phrase in the working version of the paragraph below. I left the wording as is, that is to say, as "city" instead of "Jerusalem", of course. I had actually asked at some point in my ruminations above whether it was in fact the case that the Israeli government had (or had not) established any administrative facilities in the east side, as I am probably the least well-informed person with respect to the specifics, though I would not say I am uninformed, and this is within my scope of competence, just in a geographical area somewhat outside of my focus.

At any rate, the fact that they have established administrative facilities in East Jerusalem is a further point of controversy, no doubt, and would seem to further problematizes the balance/neutrality of the current opening paragraph. Not only is the Israeli government violating the UN declarations related to Jerusalem, they are flaunting their violations.--Ubikwit (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

current draft with sentence added to end of paragraph

So that everyone can examine the actual paragraph as a whole as it stands at this stage.

Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is a site of religious veneration connected to the founding of the three major monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Israel has established the seat of its government in the city, which was partitioned as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 1948, while claiming the entire city for its future undivided capital city. The international community, however, does not recognize the claims of the Israeli government, while the Palestinians claim the eastern part of the city--East Jerusalem--as the capital of a future sovereign and independent state of Palestine. The United Nations has identified Jerusalem as one of five core issues in the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

--Ubikwit (talk) 19:50, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Does anyone else read it a different way if you forget to process the comma in "Israeli government, while the Palestinians"? It may be genius. ClaudeReigns (talk) 22:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I think it's genius. There may be a way for everyone to get what they want on this one. Who hates it? ClaudeReigns (talk) 23:03, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

ClaudeReigns, a belated thanks for the flattering comment, but I took it in the flow of developing discussions that you heartfully approve of the text, and neglected to acknowledge the compliment. Compliments higher than "genius" are hard to find! Much obliged.

In light of the questions from Mor2, I have been compelled to further examine the lead in its entirety, and was somewhat put aback by what I found. At any rate, I'm looking forward to our input regarding the proposed 3-paragraph structure for the lead I've described below in rough form.--Ubikwit (talk) 17:06, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

I don't see this as anything but a rehash of previous proposals. In this case you ignore what is and provide a bad summary/repetition of another paragraph in the lead. Hiding the fact that this an Israeli city(nothing todo with politics, but administration), removing other basic info and giving prominence to the political issue, that has nothing todo with article.(like future Palestinian state?!) Even though this is the article about the city and not the political positions on Jerusalem. This maybe your current draft, but it looks like another draft that in has proven to have no consensus.--Mor2 (talk) 23:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

To try and keep it constructive, i'll elaborate/repeat several of the concerns/issues that I see here:

The phrase "holy city to the three major" was replaced, with "site of religious veneration connected to the founding". While I don't mind the change, I'd like to know why cahnge the current more popular and common terminology.(btw is it actually connected to founding or has religious significance?).
The fact that this article is about the Israeli administered city, which has been established as their official capital was dropped between the lines.
When the subject of capital brought up, Israel established capital becomes "established seat of its government". When the term "capital" is brought up its in relation to Israel "future undivided capital city"(future?!), followed by "this claim is not recognized, while Palestinians claim it as their capital"(paraphrased). - Also note that that between the established and the claim there are 30 years.
Why expand the current "capital of future Palestinian state" to "the capital of a future sovereign and independent state of Palestine". If you add that they claim is since 1988 you'll be half way to 'state of Palestine' lead.
Also the city wasn't "partitioned as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 1948" but divided by the Israeli-Arab war of 1948.
Overall it seems that you are trying todo a lead section to the lead, providing unnecessary repetition. Note how the current lead provide informative summary and logical progression. The only thing that goes out of that way is the "capital of Israel," part, IMO it can't be avoided as it is one of the main/standard characteristics of a city, but it is immediately balanced by as imple statement that is not recognized as such and later expanded. --Mor2 (talk) 01:57, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll respond to several points in line.

Not everyone in the world is a follower of one of the three religions that trace their founding at least partly to the city, so it seems to me that the article should not adopt the vocabulary of monotheism to describe an important city related to its history. I would propose that its religious significance and connection to founding are related, but I’ll defer to the section on “Religious significance” for the specifics of its connection to David, Jesus and Mohammad.
ClaudeReigns has addressed that concern in terms of suggesting that the second paragraph address things like demographics, geography and administration, and has mentioned some specific statistics.
I think the sentence introduces the fact that the Israeli government currently controls the city, and foregrounds the pending issues in terms of indirect reference to recent claims made by the respective leaders of Israel and the Palestinian Authority against the background of the partitioning, while simultaneously introducing East Jerusalem as a proper noun following the description of the historical fact of the partitioning.
This was introduced based on a concern voiced by Kaldari above. I had contemplated removing future, but could find no other way to reflect both the current flux in the status of the state of Palestine and the relation of the eventual official recognition of a sovereign and independent state of Palestine with respect to the issue of the status of Jerusalem.
I think that the phrasing with “partitioned” is more inclusive, encompassing the full scope of the events, including the UN involvement. The specifics relate to the existence of the Green Line, etc., as pointed out by nableezy, but the status of the current political situation is clearly being presented against the historical background in a manner such as to facilitate reader comprehension of the complexities involved. The final sentence presenting a definitive statement by the UN brings resonance to that aspect.--Ubikwit (talk) 04:22, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

I agree that not everyone is a follower of one of the three religions. In fact some of us don't follow any religion and yet I fail to see how the use of the term "Holy city" offend or a problem to anyone.(btw look inside link, its not only monotheistic religions).

Furthermore Jerusalem religious significance is related in the third paragraph of the lead, while the first paragraph gives a quick run around of the city characteristics per the article topic. i.e. its Holy city, Capital city, oldest city, largest city etc. Trying to introduce it in the most neutral way, avoiding any pandora boxes that can't be explained in a couple of words and thus have their own sections.

As for ClaudeReigns addressing the issue in 2. I have already addressed his addressal before, infact many other objected to similar drafts and taking one side wont get you a consensus. Furthermore the lead suppose to be as informative as possible with the least amount of words, so take care how you address each concern. I suggest looking at the article/lead as whole, or better start small. I don't know why everyone think that they can build a whole new lead that would satisfy everyone, when in the past several years less than a sentence was introduced!.--Mor2 (talk) 08:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

@Mor2 - sorry, what was your reply? ClaudeReigns (talk) 17:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The term "holy" is a term that has origins in a specific cultural context that does not readily translate into languages of countries that have other religious traditions. I am something of a linguist, and the Wikipedia Holy city article is somewhat problematic with respect to that point. This is related to the general topic of naming conventions, or alternatively simply using generic descriptive language that is neutral. I used the phrasing incorporating the term "veneration" because that represents a cross-culturally readily translatable emotional and social phenomena related to "religion", which is also a phenomena that in its generic capacity is intelligible across cultures; thus, "religious veneration" is a phrase that neutrally describes the disposition (intentional state) held by followers of any of the three monotheistic religions mentioned with respect to the city.

Here is a link to a search result for "holy city" on a popular online dictionary in Japan. Space ALC Japanese-English/English-Japanese dictionary. Note that all but one of the results (and that usage is a descriptive statement) pertain to one of the three monotheistic religions mentioned in this article. Generally speaking the fields of descriptive linguistics and prescriptivism are concerned with such questions.

I have taken a brief glance at the entire lead and corresponding portions of the article, and must admit that it seems somewhat disjointed and lacking cohesion. From a rhetorical perspective, I have to beg to differ with regard to the avoidance of "pandora boxes", as it seems to be to lack thematic focus of any sort, and mentions various important points without indicating how they are related, when in fact they are intimately related. First, considering the fact that there are only four relatively brief paragraphs under the "Religious significance" section, it seems to me that the somewhat lengthy paragraph in the lead (the longest paragraph in the lead) is disproportionate to the amount of text in the main body. I think that the opening paragraph under consideration would enable that paragraph to be substantially condensed or even removed from the lead, as the relationship of the historical importance to the religious significance of the city has been stated in a concise manner; moreover, there is an entire separate article on the Religious significance of Jerusalem.

I also think that lead paragraph under consideration would allow for the fourth paragraph of the lead to be integrated and condensed, as the points relating to the "undivided capital" and the UN statement in the final statement have already been set forth in a concise introduction. With respect to the fifth paragraph, it would seem that the demographics, geographic and administrative introductions could be incorporated into a single paragraph, which I would propose be third, as opposed to second, which was the order put forth by ClaudeReigns. I think that if that paragraph is placed between the proposed lead paragraph and the current second paragraph the lead becomes disjointed and doesn't flow.--Ubikwit (talk) 10:22, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Though only a minor concern, I still don't see in what way the term "Holy city" is somewhat problematic to you, or violates NPOV, only that is a very common one. Moreover, this English Wikipidea and not Japanese one and if you have issues with the Holy city Wikipedia article, you may want to express your opinion there. Also you still didn't addressed my and others issues with your proposal, and if you didn't get the hint before "X addressed it" or "this was to address X" doesn't solve the issue. Especially when you only addressing the concerns of a very limited group.

As for your thoughts about the entire lead, that your opinion. I find the current led very informative, with great thematic focus(you can see my brake down above) and that it covers everything in most natural way possible. Also while I can't care less about religion, I don't think that we should drop the 'religious significance' paragraph that is important to a huge part of the population on earth(Christians+Muslims+Jews) only because you find the political angle more interesting.

Overall I agree with some of the points you made, but I don't think that they applicable here. This an article about the city not about the political views on it, its history or any number topic that other articles covers and this should be reflected in the first paragraph of the lead. Once you see that, you'll realize that various other "issues" are actually solutions that have been introduced to address issues of neutrality and NPOV .--Mor2 (talk) 00:39, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

@Mor2, some agreement is progress, so I welcome and appreciate your constructive comments.

It dawned on me after a couple of hours of sleep that alternative phrasings are possible for incorporating the term "holy city", two of which follow:

Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is venerated as a holy city associated with the founding of the three major monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is venerated as a holy city in the monotheistic religious traditions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is venerated as a holy city in the monotheistic religious traditions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

I agree that the religious significance of the city is intimately connected with its historical importance, which is what I have tried to focus on. It seems to me that the political situation as present relates to the historical importance. We can work on further drafts of sentences and paragraphs. I proposed the reduced version of the 3-paragraph lead in part because the balance between the corresponding amount of text and level of detail with respect to the religious significance seemed to be incongruent. It seems to me that by drawing the explicit connection between religious significance and historical importance in the openining paragraph, and then mentioning the major religious institutions in the second paragraph after a statement or two about ancient history and interposed before the indication of its designation as a world heritage site due in no small part to the religious sites suffices to set the stage for more detailed exegesis in the main body without diminishing the stature of the city with respect to its religious significance. --Ubikwit (talk) 01:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Not a fan of it either. For example, I have no idea what "while claiming the entire city for its future undivided capital city" means. Again, can we wait for the RfC or mediation? -- tariqabjotu 23:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

You want should I add more Yiddishkeit?

About 64% of the city's current population is Jewish and the city has a strong connection to Jewish history. King David first estabished it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c. 1000 BCE and his son, King Solomon, commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city. Today, the mayor of Jerusalem is Nir Barkat, who matriculated from Jerusalem's own Hebrew University. Under Israeli rule, the city has become increasingly modern.

Or add more to it. What more convincing evidence can we offer of it being an Israeli city? Obviously we cannot state it de jure without challenges. But we can lay out the facts and let the reader make up their own mind. ClaudeReigns (talk) 00:40, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

You're not responding to me, are you? -- tariqabjotu 01:08, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a line from the draft script to Taxi Driver. Formerip (talk) 01:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

LOL FormerIP. @Tariqabjotu Bibi said he wants an undivided Jerusalem for the capital now and forever. Abbas said he wants no less than East Jerusalem for his capital. Straight out of the horses' mouths. ClaudeReigns (talk) 01:26, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Um... so were you actually responding to me? I can't imagine how my comment (23:45, December 21) could have led to that response; hence my question. -- tariqabjotu 01:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

@Tariqabjotu - At this point I am lost as to which question or clarification I should begin addressing first, if indeed you were speaking to me. Perhaps bullet points and @ might be appropriate. It's weird how we get lost with each other sometimes. I apologize for the confusion. ClaudeReigns (talk) 05:03, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I presented only one question/clarification: are you talking to me? I'm not sure what was confusing about that. Ideally, people should indent in just below the comment they are replying to; no "@" would then be necessary. I tend to adhere to that strictly, so there should never be confusion about who I'm replying to. But some people don't do that. You indented in just below my comment, so I should have assumed that you were talking to me. But your response seemed so irrelevant to and unwarranted by my comment that I thought I'd ask for a clarification before simply railing you for your ridiculous suggestion. Perhaps you were replying to Mor2, but if that was your intention, you should have placed your comment below his (as Ubikwit did) and not mine.

So, again, it's a simple question: to whom was your comment at 00:40, December 22, intended? -- tariqabjotu 05:31, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Tariqabjotu, may I ask you to focus on the content, which is already difficult to follow ?

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:13, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Pluto, I know you enjoy playing the peacemaker (ha!), but there are times where your holier-than-thou attitude hinders not helps. This is one of them. I don't need your condescending tone because I asked the most basic of points of order: who was ClaudeReigns speaking to? If it was me, I'll respond to his suggestion. Otherwise, I'll leave it to whomever Claude was actually speaking to. Geez. Get off my ass. -- tariqabjotu 16:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Why do you think that WP:CIVIL doesn't apply to you? PerDaniel (talk) 19:01, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

@Tariqabjotu - It seems that the content you have noted by Mor2 is no longer present. If my memory serves correctly, it was he who first responded, and as I usually prefer to respond to one comment at a time. You were always welcome to comment in return. Perhaps I have done a disservice to discussion in the placement of my comment, so I wish to again apologize for any confusion.

If we were to focus on content, as Pluto2012 has suggested:

Shall we allow for paragraph 2 to present trivial and/or notable, yet always non-disputable facts about Jerusalem from a Jewish/Israeli perspective be appropriate, given that a majority of Jerusalem's citizen are both Jewish in faith and Israeli by citizenship? In my opinion, this would allow the lead section the freedom to explore other points of view similarly, without making de jure arguments about a wider border dispute of which Jerusalem seems to be only one particular disputed area. ClaudeReigns (talk) 17:10, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Claude, you are making a valiant effort to forge consensus on this matter, but I'm afraid that it seems there are some intractable positions involved.

With respect to the order of the paragraphs of the lead, although it might appease the moderates of the "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" proponents, it won't sate the appetite of the megalomaniacs that are determined to deny international law, etc.

I also think that, perhaps even more importantly, such an ordering of the paragraphs would not correspond to the order in which the article is laid out in the main body. If one were to assume the proposed draft as the opening paragraph, several elements noted in the lead in paragraphs other than the opening paragraph are already accounted for in a much more concise manner, meaning that it is not necessary to repeat them. So I've ordered the paragraphs in the 3-paragraph model proposed below in a manner such as to correspond to the order in which the content is presented in the main body the order presented; wherein the first paragraph basically represents a synoptic statement of the current state of affairs, and the second and third paragraphs basically represent the corresponding relevant points of ancient history and present disposition, respectively, of the city. --Ubikwit (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

No, Claude, Mor2's comment is still there. It has just been distanced from my comment because everyone who was responding to him rightfully responded below his comment and not mine. He did respond first, but Mor2 and I are not the same person. If you had a comment to him, you should direct it to him, not assume I can or should respond on his behalf. Just because Mor2 and I agree on one thing, doesn't mean we agree on everything. But since you've now asked me, I'll take the comment as directed at me:

In response to the content you suggested... uh, no, not in agreement at all, and -- again -- I don't know what in my comment made you think that that is what I wanted. I was simply noting that you have an unclear clause in ~~your~~ Ubikwit's (-- tariqabjotu 21:22, 22 December 2012 (UTC)) proposal. In fact, I assumed the paragraph you suggested was just a joke to make me (or someone else?) look bad. The desire to keep the current capital statement is not necessarily a desire to add more "Yiddishkeit" (whatever that means) or promote the Jewish connection to the city, and I request you stick to the arguments I've actually made rather than tailor to preconceived notions about me. -- tariqabjotu 17:51, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The intent is to make sure that points of view are balanced. I seldom joke, but when I do, the intent is to create a warmer atmosphere in which consensus can thrive. Personal comments made towards one editor or another seem not to serve that goal. I recognize that you additionally have a content concern, namely, "You have an unclear clause in your proposal." I was unaware of a content concern in my proposal, which actually a very rough draft meant explicitly to be modified. The proposal it was meant to augment, Ubikwit's by summary of other editors, is one which I support, though it may indeed have an unclear clause. Would anyone like to offer an amendment to it? ClaudeReigns (talk) 21:01, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, which part of You want should I add more Yiddishkeit? did you think would create a warmer atmosphere? The stereotypical "Jewish accent" or the misuse of the term Yiddishkeit? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Last sentence of opening paragraph

I would please like the last sentence to read: The United Nations has identified Jerusalem as one of five core issues in the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 12:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The notability factor and the manner in which it ties in the present status with respect to the historical context and the significance thereof attested to by the notability of the UN make that a fine closing sentence to the opening paragraph.--Ubikwit (talk) 12:50, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

I would also be willing to defer the idea to the end of the entire leading section for flow if the need calls for it. BritishWatcher has a strong point in being cautious that our process is not flawed. I envision a process that submits gladly to the notion that each voice will have its say in deference to the predominance of its view. An opening statement that tries wherever possible to focus on people, since that is truly what makes up a city. A process in which the romantic past, realistic present and hopeful future all are represented in equal voice, since it may be impossible to discern which has the most actual weight for any particular reader. When do we get to say something about the mayor? Who will be the first to talk about the founding? Are we accurately introducing the topic to the multitude of Palestinians who have hopes of living there but have no firsthand knowledge of what the city actually is today? I am excited to see how this will turn out. ClaudeReigns (talk) 15:02, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm listening to what BritishWatcher has to say, but insofar as he ignored your invitation to draft a second paragraph presenting the viewpoint of "Jerusalem is a city in Israel", and instead posted a slightly revised version of the flawed current lead paragraph under the subsection you created titled "Ubiwit draft", I don't see that representing much in the way of a spirit of collaboration. One could even see it as retrenchment.

I think that the working version of the draft reflects the same perception that several other editors gave voice to before I began participating here and of which I wasn't even aware when I wrote the initial comments about historical context. That would seem to indicate that those perceptions are fairly prevalent. Aside from the religion-history register of significance, the partition/divide register of significance was the other aspect that seemed glaringly problematic with respect to the half-crocked, semi-veiled, disjointed and rhetorically inflected presentation in the lead.

With respect to reader reception, there will be different reactions to different points, but isn't it the point of the encyclopedia to present the subject matter in a manner such as to reflect the current state of knowledge as per reliable sources and enable diverse and various readers to interpret that themselves? --Ubikwit (talk) 15:40, 21 December 2012 (UTC) Ubikwit

Good points. But maybe at some point BritishWatcher will want to reengage, and he's welcome. He may be looking to start the next paragraph instead. This may be the silent version of "wait, guys". I'm not a mind reader.

Looking back over the article as a whole, I think it already reflects the main ideas I had thought about. We do talk about the past, not usually sensationally, but in good taste. We do talk about the present, and the article as a whole does not pull punches nor speak too rashly. And we do talk about the future from the day-to-day planning to grand schemes. It seems to me that those perspectives are balanced in the article. If we do the same in the leading section, we'll be doing the article justice. ClaudeReigns (talk) 18:24, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Let's hope that BritishWatcher is doing just that. I hope that he is hearing your and nableezy's comments with respect to the dejure position to which he seems to be clinging.

Aside from the one outstanding point raised by Kaldari and addressed by the source you provided with respect to the status of the Palestinian claim on East/Jerusalem, I'm inclined to think that the draft might already be nearly ripe to have Ravpapa take a look at it.--Ubikwit (talk) 20:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The strong opposition of Britishwatcher to any proposal should not stop you. Have in mind that he just disagree with any proposal. I suggest you both to focus on the content and try to comply at best with NPoV.

More, as underlined here above, the ArbCom decided to ask the community a binding RfC on the topic so nothing should move until the conclusion of this RfC. Anyway, you work and propal should be suggested there.

I suggest you to gather numerous sources that proves that what you suggest is in compliance with these.

Thx for your good work. Pluto2012 (talk) 11:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I fully support BritishWatcher and there is not going to be forced POV editions against consensus made prior. There are numerous reliable sources from National Geographic to CIA factbook, both political, geographical, academic etc which do states that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Therefore it is not truth that there is "unanomues consensus" that it is not. Any proposition which is just aimed to deny this in not acceptable---Tritomex (talk) 11:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

There are no less sources to state that East-Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine and there are no less source to state that the choice of Jerusalem as capital is not recognized by any country in the world. And we all know that is the choice of a country to decide where to establish its capital and we all know that East-Jerusalem is not in Israel.

It is useless to behave the way you both do as if your life was depending on this and to try to move forward.

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I wish to point out, that the initial question of this subject was the both part of this sentence. Those two parts namely "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" and "although not internationally recognized as such" were equally but separately viewed as they are already balanced. Numerous sources are relating to this subject, without mentioning international dispute in the lead. F.x CIA fact book [1] National Geography and [2] and [3] Index mundi [4] even in sports and entertainment [5] etc. So if this sources without any dispute point out that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, our lead is at least already balanced with the negation of this claim through "international community" which could be also challenged. There are also sources which are dealing with the question of the lack of international recognition, although no source I have found which categorically claim that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel. Concerning East Jerusalem as capital of Palestine, I did not found any source uninvolved to the Arab-Israeli conflict on the Arab side, which support such claim.--Tritomex (talk) 12:35, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Clearly none of the sources you just listed would meet the criteria of "reliable" in this context. None of the sources are published by scholarly/research publishers, one is a popular magazine, and another a political tainted publication due to its being issued by an agency of the US government and reflecting the policy standpoint thereof: the CIA, no less. You might as well cite a publication by the Mossad as reliable.

There is the fact of the recent vote at the UN, for example, that squarely puts the US in the minority POV with respect to the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

There is the USS Liberty incident, which was covered up by the CIA, with several The Puzzle Palace, by James Bamford, Penguin Books, 1982, has a detailed description of the Israeli attack on the SIGINT ship USS Liberty, and the events leading up to it, on pages 279–293.--Ubikwit (talk) 16:22, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Tritomex, there are sources that present things as a fact and there are sources that present things as a claim/opinion/Israeli view, not a fact. For example, the BBC says "Israel and many of its supporters regard a united Jerusalem - Israel captured East Jerusalem from Jordan in 1967 - as its undivided capital. Most major powers do not, including the US which, like many other countries, has its embassy in Tel Aviv."[6] Look at how the source presents the information. There are many sources like this that do not present the Israeli view as a fact. They present the positions of various parties as just that, the positions of the parties, and they attribute the views to the parties. These sources exist and can't be ignored. Also you say "our lead is at least already balanced with the negation of this claim". What claim ? If it is a claim present it as a claim. Right now there is an unattributed statement of fact in the voice of the encyclopedia that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. That is not a claim. It can't be negated by anything other than a sentence that follows it that says "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel" and that would be ludicrous, to have a statement of fact followed by its negation. An opinion can't negate a fact.

Ubikwit, the CIA factbook qualifies as an RS. There are many RS that present it as a fact and the CIA is one of them in the sense that they say Capital: name: Jerusalem. What Tritomex didn't say is that the CIA don't mention Jerusalem at all in their lead (...not really an option for us) but they do also present the information as a claim - "Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as it's capital in 1950, but..." etc on the map and in the Capital section.[7] The CIA do the same thing in the annotation for Greater Jerusalem SPOT 5 based map File:Greater_Jerusalem_May_2006_CIA_remote-sensing_map_3500px.jpg. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:18, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Tritomex, please could you confirm that you acknowledge the existence of RS that do not present the Israeli position that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel as a fact ? Sean.hoyland - talk 17:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Just so that editors such as tariqabjotu know, what Sean says, though more elegantly put, matches my own views. ← ZScarpia 19:49, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

draft including "holy city" in first sentence

Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is venerated as a holy city in the monotheistic religious traditions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Israel has established the seat of its government in the city, which was partitioned as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 1948, while claiming the entire city for its future undivided capital city. The international community, however, does not recognize the claims of the Israeli government, while the Palestinians claim the eastern part of the city--East Jerusalem--as the capital of a future sovereign and independent state of Palestine. The United Nations has identified Jerusalem as one of five core issues in the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Alternative versions with "holy city"

- Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is venerated as a holy city associated with the founding of the three major monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is venerated as a holy city in the monotheistic religious traditions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Version w/o "holy city"

Jerusalem (pron.: /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is a site of religious veneration connected to the founding of the three major monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ubikwit (talk • contribs) 03:32, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Which question to put to the proposed "binding RFC"?

The "binding RFC" motion seems to just be lacking one vote to gain a majority, do we have ideas concerning which question the RFC should ask, assuming it goes ahead? My thinking would be to keep it as simple and plain as possible, optimally just asking whether a specific edit should be done, or whether one of two possible edits should be done. If the proposed edit is simple, there ought to be less to discuss which would improve the odds of reaching a conclusion with a reasonable amount of text. --Dailycare (talk) 12:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I think it just needs to get to the nub of the thing: Should the lead to the article on Jerusalem state, in Wikipedia's voice, that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?. I think other supplementary questions that could be asked don't actually need a binding RfC and can be sorted out afterwards in the normal way. Formerip (talk) 12:42, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

A slightly different suggestion: Does stating that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel in the Jerusalem article comply with the policy of WP:NPOV? This has the advantage of narrowing down the discussion to a strict application of policy, (hopefully) avoiding arguments of the more personal kind. --Frederico1234 (talk) 13:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, actually, I have to agree that referencing policy in the question would be better. Formerip (talk) 13:18, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I suggest we take the highest care to what we'll be discussed.

The question is complex. I think that people could agree stating that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel is acceptable but then they would also agree stating the East-Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. The same way, people who would not consider adequate to state that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel would not consider stating this for Palestine.

I think we should suggest several paragraph that just concern the political status and let the RfC comment or amend these.

We would have :

Option 1/ Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.

Option 2/ Both Israel and Palestine chose Jerusalem as capital but the final status of the city should be the object of peace negocations.

Option 3/ Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally

Option n/ Israel has established the seat of its government in the city, which was partitioned as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in 1948, while claiming the entire city for its future undivided capital city. The international community, however, does not recognize the claims of the Israeli government, while the Palestinians claim the eastern part of the city--East Jerusalem--as the capital of a future sovereign and independent state of Palestine. The United Nations has identified Jerusalem as one of five core issues in the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Pluto2012 (talk) 14:37, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I really don't think that is the way to go, because it inevitably drags in lots of tangential issues which will make both voting and reading the votes harder. Isn't "should be the object of peace negotiations" an opinion? Is the main reason for the Israeli claim to J as its capital that "maintains its primary governmental institutions there", or is it a fact of Israeli law? Would many Israelis agree that Israel is "claiming the entire city for its future undivided capital city"? All of these issues will keep us from deciding the central question. Personally, I couldn't support any of the options listed.

I could add versions of my own which I think are less problematic, but by the time we have let everyone do that, we'll have twenty versions and no chance of a consensus for any of them. Formerip (talk) 14:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I am curious as to why you don't put a version you think would be best up for everyone elses consideration in advance? I am in no way indicating that I disagree with the preceding comments regarding simplicity and reference to policy. Making direct reference to policy may have represent a strategy that makes the process more efficient and workable by clearly delineating the scope.

What I am suggesting is that putting out concerns in advance, especially in the form of tangible sentences that people can read, contemplate and discuss in advance might further facilitate efficiency in the RfC negotiations.--Ubikwit (talk) 15:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

I don't really have a version that I think is best, all I really think is necessary is to decide one way or the other in taking the "in WP's voice" option off the table. That could be achieved, for example, by "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel according to Israeli law, though not internationally recognized as such". But I wouldn't want to insist on any particular version or stand in the way of further honing after the RfC. Formerip (talk) 16:06, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I much prefer providing several options and having people choose among them. Asking a question leaves what the actual wording of the lead should be open to interpretation. In addition, I'd rather not waste time resisting attempts to formulate the question in a manner that prejudices respondents toward your perspective. When an RfC is started, it should not be apparent from the way the question is formulated what stance the initiator holds. -- tariqabjotu 16:13, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I think Frederico1234's proposal sounds elegantly simple. That way, the discussion is focused on the major point, and not minor issues that editors see with specific proposals. Then, if the RFC finds there is no NPOV violation, the current wording stands, and if the RFC finds there is NPOV violation, the current wording is removed. We'd then separately agree on a new wording. The risk of course would be that agreement might be difficult to reach.. Maybe we could have two questions, 1) Frederico1234's question and then 2) "If the answer to question 1 is 'no'", a choice between 2-3 options. The two questions would be closed separately, and question 2) would only be closed if 1) is closed with a 'no'. --Dailycare (talk) 16:44, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Issues such as whether the current wording is neutral should be sorted out first. The wording should be sorted out afterwards, which is when editors should be choosing between versions, if at all (in fact I don't think that we should be trying to come up with a binding wording). The narrower the focus the better, otherwise the result will just be another gargantuan, untangleable morass of discussions. That means trying to deal with a single issue at a time, stopping the discussion from going of at tangents. ← ZScarpia 19:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, but I also think it might be advisable to prepare versions in advance that illustrate the differences and possible alternatives corresponding to the various positions to with respect to NPOV, though I don't quite understand the details of the process of "closing" the RfC. --Ubikwit (talk) 06:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

I think that there are four types of solution: to omit mention of the capital status of Jerusalem; to say that Jerusalem or bits of Jerusalem are the capital of one or both of Israel and Palestine; to state the capital status in terms of points of view; to use statements about the status which no-one disputes (such as that Jerusalem is the "declared capital"). Some editors here, including me, obviously think that the second type of solution breaches the neutrality rule. Once that was confirmed or rejected, I think that choosing one of the other solutions wouldn´t be too difficult. Looks as though we may need some assistance to formulate a suitable question though! ← ZScarpia 18:31, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, those are four good starting points for discussion. I agree with those that feel the second type of the four solutions you mentioned is the most problematic and therefore the least desirable, so we should establish the arguments that support dismissing that type from consideration. I actually don't think it should be that difficult to accomplish that, but it calls for advanced preparation in light of the various circumstances.

Before I point out some concerns I have with the approach/strategy of those supporting the current lead, let me point to a couple things in the first paragraph I've proposed above that pertain to the problems you have drawn out a bit by elucidating the above-described four types of solutions.

First, the two appearances of the word capital in the paragraph I proposed are both prefaced with the modifier "future", and in that manner I think that the question of the status as capital is effective deferred, which parallels the actual state of affairs in the real world--though the supporters of the present lead would deny that. There might be some problems in the details regrading Israels claims, that is to say, that they claim the entirety of Jerusalem is already their undivided capital, but it doesn't seem to me that would be sustainable, as you have pointed out that sovereignty is at issue, probably the most direct refutation of their argument under international law, but that argument is reflected already in the UN resolutions, right?.

In relation to the first point, note that the generic term city is operative here, because the various circumstances at issue regarding the status of the city, i.e., its partitioning, whether it is capital, etc., are introduced subsequently vis-a-vis the city as such and the various claims being made on it. The article is about the city, first and foremost. Whether it has one attribute or another is a secondary order matter that has to be decided for each attribute. An identity statement that presupposes a specific attribute is not a manner of describing the city but a means of presrciptively appropriating the city as capital in order to subsequently describe the capital in terms of secondary attributes, such as "occupied", "not recognized". I need to go through some of the "dictionary definition" based arguments, but such arguments seems utterly facile when you shift registers from "dictionary" to "encyclopedia".

Second, I believe that I have covered the presently admissible state of the claim of the government of Israel with the phrase "Israel has established the seat of its government in the city". That acknowledges the physical presence of the administrative organs of the central government of Israel in Jerusalem, but nothing more than that with respect to status "as capital".

The approach/strategy of the supporters of the current lead would seem to rely heavily on two threads that they may try to weave together. The first is the attempt to argue for a "dejure" capital status for Israel. The second is the language games that relate to the framing of the of the "positions", "status", "claims", etc. The opening sentence for the new section that has been created after this one is useful to illustrate the point.

The lead currently documents the current position of there being no foreign embassies in Jerusalem.

That sentence attempts to present as a mere "position" the present physical reality of the fact that all governments having diplomatic relationships with Israel have removed their embassies from Jerusalem to demonstrate that Israel has acted against international law with their various transgressions against the rights of the Palestinians vis-a-vis Jerusalem. That is an attempt to frame the topic in a manner that shifts the register of significance from a verifiable reality to a merely subjective "position". The other side of the coin in that strategy might be to then attempt to assert the physical reality that the Israeli military effectively controls the entirety of Jerusalem in support of arguing for the status of its "undivided capital city" that is simply not recognized. The present lead represents to me a mess that has been built on false compromises related to such language games.

I think that a solution that minimizes the possibility for friction arising in relation to such language games might be the shortest distance between two points. Now, ClaudeReigns has demonstrated a highly polished level of diplomatic acumen as well as penetrating insight, so maybe he will grace this conversation with a comment.--Ubikwit (talk) 19:34, 24 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

To be policy compliant, any statement of fact made in an article has to satisfy to conditions, is it verifiable and is it undisputed. The "reality on the ground" and "dictionary definition" arguments are red herrings; they have no basis in policy and their purpose is to circumvent the neutrality rule. We´re not here to vote on what the reality on the ground is, but to figure out how to neutrally present what sources say. Even if the dictionary definition argument had any relevance, as we've seen, it's pretty easy to dismiss by showing that dictionary definitons aren´t definitive as far as what words mean. As far as the statement of fact, "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", goes, the question to keep asking is, do sources dispute that? Since the answer to that is yes, any argument seeking to uphold the current wording is, automatically, an attempt at pushing a point of view.

When supporters of the current wording dismiss things as positions, claims etc. they may well be correct. Where they fail is in not recognising that the things they support are just positions and claims too.

As far as the word games go, we have the text of the original UN resolutions to refer to in order to demonstrate what terms such as non-recognition mean when applied to the international community´s view on the status of Jerusalem.

I'm all for advanced preparation.

← ZScarpia 13:21, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

" Does stating that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel in the Jerusalem article comply with the policy of WP:NPOV?" - is blatantly biased question, if it is going to be along those lines, it should include what is actually says. The article does not just say it is the capital of Israel, it says it is the capital of Israel but not recognised by the international community. BIG Difference! BritishWatcher (talk) 16:54, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

We could have:

In the sentence Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such, do you believe the clause "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" to be compliant with Wikipedia's policy on adopting a neutral point-of-view?

Formerip (talk) 17:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

You cannot make an identity statement that is inadmissible and then try to retroactively justify it with a qualifying statement. --Ubikwit (talk) 17:15, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Although that's what the article currently does, which might may "can you..?" a legitimate aspect to the question in an RfC. Formerip (talk) 17:24, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is why we need a third party to set up and provide direction to whatever process is used. I'm not convinced we'll get some in favor of changing the current wording to agree to anything that isn't a leading question. In case I wasn't clear, that, FormerIP, is a leading question. -- tariqabjotu 17:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

What makes you say that? Is it because it attempts to "lead" the reader to consider the question in terms of policy?

If we need a third party, then a request for meditation would be the way to go. Formerip (talk) 17:31, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Tariq, I'm not sure that you've made the case. In my opinion, there is no question that either of the statements that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" or that "Jerusalem is a city in Israel" is unequivocally not in correspondence with reality; therefore, I find it hard to even comprehend what it is that you are trying to get at. What is "leading" about presenting sources against which to conduct a reasoned discussion as to whether the sources verify the validate the identity statement?--Ubikwit (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

@Ubikwit, I don't think that you'll find many disagreements here, UN/world regards Jerusalem status as undetermined. However that doesn't change the fact that Jerusalem is under Israeli control, or that they established their capital and seat of government.(i.e. the difference between de jure and de facto).--Mor2 (talk) 00:58, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Maybe, but then why are we trying to formulate questions? It would seem that a more neutral opening along the lines of the description I believe nableezy wrote to the effect that "Jerusalem is a city straddling Israel and the occupied Palestinian Territories" would be in place, as that recognizes Israeli control as well as the international law position of the Palestinians. Questions could be framed in terms of the defacto and dejure positions being argued by BritishWatcher. I'm not an expert on international law, but if it can be established that international law is the prevailing frame of reference discourse related to this issue, then the sources cited by ZScarpia would seem to easily refute the neutrality of the current wording as well as support phrasings such as the "straddles" version.

Are you suggesting a question worded win terms of the dejure and defacto status of Jerusalem?--Ubikwit (talk) 06:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

What is the problem with asking whether the current wording "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such" is compliant with Wiki policy? Ankh.Morpork 17:47, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Not much, although I think you do need to specify which proposition is being asked about, or you risk a lack of clarity if you get a "no" vote. Formerip (talk) 17:53, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I was as clear as I could be in my comment. I've already spent excessive amounts of my time commenting on this talk page, explaining again what I've already said. I'm not doing it anymore. Reread my statement a couple times. Reread the comment that I was replying to. Still don't understand what I'm saying? Fine. I don't care that you don't. -- tariqabjotu 18:03, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is an identity statement Counterpart_theory#Counterpart_theory_and_the_necessity_of_identity that: implies that Jerusalem is a city in Israel, which is an unsustainable statement with respect to the status of Jerusalem under international law; and two, attempts to divert the questioning of the verity of the identity statement by appending a qualifying statement to the a priori inadmissible identity statement. --Ubikwit (talk) 18:13, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Ubikwit, please read Wikipedia:Indentation. -- tariqabjotu 18:36, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Well if your view is that the current version is unacceptable, then vote against it at the RFC. However, there are proponents of the current version who contend that the initial sentence is acceptable and the qualification and proposition should be regarded together, and that being the case, the current version should be presented in its entirety at the RFC for other editors to decide upon. Surely other editors possess the mental faculties to determine for themselves whether it is an "inadmissible identity statement" or an "attempt to divert"? The issue at hand is whether the first sentence is acceptable, I fail to see how you can construe presenting the sentence in question as problematic. Ankh.Morpork 18:30, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Ankh, please read Wikipedia:Indentation. -- tariqabjotu 18:36, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Tariq, OK, I will do that tomorrow, after I get some sleep.

Ankh, the problem with your PROPOSITION is that the statement "Israel is the capital of Israel" is not a proposition, it is an identity statement. This is not an exercise in trying to prove a hypothesis. That identity statement is not in conformance with international law, and is therefore inadmissible on Wikipedia, at least that is my take on the situation.

There have been a couple of proponents of that statement that have been trying to argue a "dejure" position in order to validate that identity statement, but that would appear to be a patently false position.--Ubikwit (talk) 18:49, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

The formulation of the RFC is independent of your personal misgivings regarding the current lead sentence and reiterating them does not negate that there is still support for the current form. As such, the RFC question should be designed to ascertain the validity of that opinion, however "patently false" you consider it, and a prerequisite for that is presenting the full version in question. Ankh.Morpork 19:07, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I suppose you have a point, I'm just not sure what it would mean to "present the full version in question" when what you actually have are two separate statements, one of which is being used as an expedient to try and gain passage for the other, which is not in conformance with the discourse of international law that one would imagine to be the prevailing discourse with respect to matters such as this on Wikipedia. For your erudition in light of my less than optimal presentation of the topic of identity statements: First-order logic. The point I have been trying to make is that, the question of the disposition of the city of Jerusalem is pending--to say the least--in the arena of international law as represented by the pronouncements of the UN and many nation states. It is therefore a contradiction to make a statement that identifies Jerusalem with respect to the criteria of the prevailing discourse of international law when the identified status is not in conformance with the criteria. Therefore, it is a foregone conclusion that a phrasing of an RfC question of identity predicated on a statement that attempts to qualify that identity in terms of acknowledging that the applicable criteria are not met is inadmissible. It is nothing more than a duplicitous rhetorical maneuver. It is not a "proposition" which is presented in order to evaluate its truth conditions, because the horizon of the "truth conditions" is not the unknown but an established discourse; in this case, international law.--Ubikwit (talk) 19:30, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Once again, how you think the RFC should be adjudicated does not affect the manner in which the question should be posed. Your dogmatic exposition of how you would answer the question is of no relevance to this section which attempts to decide upon the question itself. What is a relevant "duplicitous rhetorical maneuver" is dismissing the opposing view as "patently false" or omitting to fairly present it in the RFC because its inadmissibilty is a "foregone conclusion". The purpose of the RFC is to present the current version and decide on its validity and you should allow for due process to take its course. Ankh.Morpork 20:10, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The comments were addressing the mode of the question, as there were two proposals: one proposing to simply ask whether "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" violates WP:NPOV; and the other inserting the qualifying statement "though not recognized internationally..." or something to that effect.

I don't think that posing the question in the second of those two is logically consistent as a question. I wasn't trying to answer the question, just point out a problem with asking it in that way to begin with. If you ask the wrong question how can you expect the right answer?

That was what I meant to point out.--Ubikwit (talk) 20:17, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

"and the other inserting the qualifying statement "though not recognized internationally..." or something to that effect." Are you actually aware that this is the current form adopted in the article and is supported by a number of editors, and is not simply a gratuitous qualification dreamt up a few moments ago? What could possibly be "wrong" with presenting the current version - which arose out of previous lengthy deliberations - when requesting people to pass an opinion upon it? Ankh.Morpork 20:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest that quite a lot has changed even within the events of the past year to throw that statement into stark relief--especially with respect to international law considering the elvated status of Palestine at the UN--as to the problems moving forward with the two-state solution. That should not be trivialized. I am inclined to believe that a two-step or even a three-step approach might accommodate the various modes of approaching the question.--Ubikwit (talk) 01:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

I would note that nothing has changed that effects Jerusalem. Sure PLO delegate at the UN has been upgraded, but neither Palestinian Sovereignty or Independence status has been changed and more importantly UN/world position on Jerusalem hasn't been changed. As for the rest, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, when we will have a two state solution or some other solution/change that will effect Jerusalem status, municipal borders or materialize Palestinian claim, add something notable to the article etc then changes will be in order.--Mor2 (talk) 01:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Personally I don't see problems with modifying Federico1234's question as Ankh.Morpork suggests. The modified question could be question 1) Does stating "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such" in the Jerusalem article comply with the policy of WP:NPOV?. If we adopt the two-step approach, the proposals in question 2) to replace "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" might be e.g. a) "Israel claims Jerusalem as its capital" b) "Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government", c) "Under Israeli law Jerusalem is Israel's capital". --Dailycare (talk) 20:36, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I see several problems with it. That isnt the only dispute here, and the 500 kB of text on this page should make that clear. nableezy - 21:27, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

d) Jerusalem is Israel established Capital e)Jerusalem is Israel official capital. need more?--Mor2 (talk) 01:15, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

^^^^ is why an RFC is a stupid idea for this. This dispute cannot be boiled down to a simple statement that could elicit a support or oppose. Mediation that is binding on everybody, whether or not they accept it, is the only thing that will resolve the issue. nableezy - 21:19, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know whether or not an RfC would be a good idea or if it would further answer any of the questions I have. I don't know how the arguments that it is or isn't NPOV would be presented if at all. As a general principle, I do like it when other editors get involved. ClaudeReigns (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

It's a bit moot, because the RfC motion has the votes needed to pass. Do we think we can get as far as a question in this discussion, or should we cut to the chase and ask for mediation? Formerip (talk) 22:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

After participating in this discussion for a short couple of days, it does seem that the insistence of the statement on the status of Jerusalem as a city in Israel (only) or the capital city of Israel is the main sticking point to forging a more neutral lead for the article. In that respect, addressing that point would appear to be a priority, though certainly not the only issue of concern.--Ubikwit (talk) 01:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

If there is going to be a large RFC which is binding for several years, it must have specific options for people to choose from so they know what the alternatives are, otherwise nothing is resolved at all. It need not necessarily have the specific proposed wording but a basis for how the article should be handled. Like 1) Current method which has existed in the article for years. 2) Say it is the proclaimed or claimed "capital of Israel" 3) try to avoid saying it is the capital of either. 4) say it is the capital of both. etc. That sort of approach would give us an insight into how people want the situation resolved. Unlike a question asking is the current wording or saying Jerusalem is the capital NPOV? BritishWatcher (talk) 12:11, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Whether it's an RFC or mediation, whichever question is posed to respondents, people's responses need to be consistent with the data. Whatever happens, I suggest we provide the data in the form of a compilation of 20, 50, 100, or however many is regarded as an appropriate number of sampled RS that deal with the status of Jerusalem. Much of this sampling work has already been done. Many samples can be found in the archives and high quality sources that describe the status of Jerusalem are plentiful. Without the data there is nothing to anchor people to the RS-based evidence. Providing the data should help ensure that people base their statements on the evidence and policy and nothing else. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:29, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I share your mind.

Whatever our point of view on the matter, the most important is to compile the sources on the topic and provide them at the beginning of the RfC. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:54, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Sean, if a 100% of sources were to describe Jerusalem as the captital in a particular way, and a 100% of sources defined the word "capital" in an incompatible manner, how would you suggest we proceed? Ankh.Morpork 21:26, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Nableezy, of course the issue is complex, but I think we should aim the binding rfc to the core of the issue to have a focused, meaningful and hopefully brief discussion. It's not realistic to assume this rfc will settle all issues in this article, but it can settle the key point that has caused years of discussions. In order to get a result we should be solution-oriented and focus on getting an acceptable result that can be lived with permanently. A perfect result for everyone isn't a realistic goal. Merry Christmas, --Dailycare (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Ankh, is it not the case that an encyclopedia is a higher order text than a dictionary with respect to describing any given topic?

This article is not about "capitals" per se, but about a city. Attributes such as "capital" are secondary to the taxonomical category of "city" with respect to Jerusalem.--Ubikwit (talk) 04:59, 25 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

I don't think I understand your question. If I read you literally it would be something like a scenario where 100% of the sources say "Jerusalem has been proclaimed as the capital of both Israel and Palestine and the letter I is the capital of Israel". I'm sure that isn't what you meant. When it comes to what might happen I'm more concerned about what is likely e.g. respondents not answering the question asked because it involves looking at data and thinking and instead answering an easier question that wasn't asked such as "Do I think Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?" Sean.hoyland - talk 17:53, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I was trying to say that trying to rely on a dictionary definition to comprehensively describe the scenario at hand would appear to be an extreme oversimplification. Jerusalem does not have all of the attributes that grant it status of "capital city" of any country; therefore, the attribute of "capital" would appear to be a misrepresentation of the facts, which are borne out by RS more definitive than a dictionary--to paraphrase ZScarpia--such as "non-recognition by UN", for starters. Or the fact that Israel does not have sovereignty over the city, which I would think should be another attribute that precludes the appellation of "capital". It is my understanding that there are UN sources that support definitions in terms of those attributes (not recognized, no sovereignty); accordingly, I find the recourse to the dictionary definition stuff to be somewhat facile, but not to be made light of while others are still intent on resorting to such sources.--Ubikwit (talk) 04:55, 29 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit