Talk:Jifna/GA2

I have put the article on hold to give you a chance to deal with the issues I raise within the next seven days. I can't help feeling that it was re-nominated a bit too quickly, and I don't know whether it can be brought to GA standard within the hold time, but you are entitled to try.

A couple of general points first.

The prose is readable, but not uniformly of good standard, the grammar and punctuation being wayward at times. Sentences are sometimes too long , and wind round themselves. I will fix some of these points myself, if you like, while you are busy on the meatier stuff, but it may be a better idea to get someone to copyedit it.
The structure of the second part of the article is weak - in particular "Education" is too short and light to be a section on its own. We are talking about a relatively small village here, and I think that things like Economy, Education and Cultural life are all aspects of village life. Why don't to you include these three as subsections of a main "Village life" section? It would give the article a much better structure.

As to specific points:

Who "believes" that Jifna is the "biblical" town of Gophna? What evidence is this belief based on? It should be in the article
You have wikilinked Gophna in your text to Ophni, but without explanation. Who says Gophna is the Ophni referred to in Joshua 18:24? Again, some explanation is required in the article.
You make the firm statement that "Jesus passed through the village once in his lifetime, as did his mother Mary..." Your only source is an on-line document from the PNA culture department listing sites. This is not a source on which to make such definite statements. There is no biblical evidence whatever to link Jesus to Jifna, so your statement has to worded in far more tentative terms.
Antonius is linked to a disambiguation page, and I've no idea which of the various ones listed is the Antonius to whom you refer.
I have a major problem with the History section, which in parts is far too loosely written. Obviously ,with a 2,000+ year period to cover, the history won't be comprehensive, but it has to be coherent, with the various eras clearly defined by dates, to give the reader a proper historical perspective. Here are some cases that require attention:-
- "Around the 6th century CE Jifna became a Christian town..." You must be able to date such a significant event more precisely.
- The start of the Crusader era is totally undated.
- Phrases like "...destroyed sometime afterwards" could mean anything.
- Ottoman takeover of Palestine undated.
- British mandate years not mentioned in the history at all.
The Demographic section is presented in a muddled way. You should present the population statistics in chronological date order, starting with 1931. You must state clearly what year the age and gender distributions refer to.

That's enough to be going on with. I will continue monitoring the article and will let you know if I spot other problems. Brianboulton (talk) 17:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Changes

The prose is readable, but not uniformly of good standard, the grammar and punctuation being wayward at times. Sentences are sometimes too long , and wind round themselves. I will fix some of these points myself, if you like, while you are busy on the meatier stuff, but it may be a better idea to get someone to copyedit it.

I would really appreciate it ;) --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The structure of the second part of the article is weak - in particular "Education" is too short and light to be a section on its own. We are talking about a relatively small village here, and I think that things like Economy, Education and Cultural life are all aspects of village life. Why don't to you include these three as subsections of a main "Village life" section? It would give the article a much better structure. Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who "believes" that Jifna is the "biblical" town of Gophna? What evidence is this belief based on? It should be in the article

Should I write it in a footnote? --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have wikilinked Gophna in your text to Ophni, but without explanation. Who says Gophna is the Ophni referred to in Joshua 18:24? Again, some explanation is required in the article.

I'm not very good with bible sources. Could you tell me how to find or link (Joshua, Wars, 1:45; 3:55) and also (Joshua, Wars, 6:115). --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I took care of it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You make the firm statement that "Jesus passed through the village once in his lifetime, as did his mother Mary..." Your only source is an on-line document from the PNA culture department listing sites. This is not a source on which to make such definite statements. There is no biblical evidence whatever to link Jesus to Jifna, so your statement has to worded in far more tentative terms.
Antonius is linked to a disambiguation page, and I've no idea which of the various ones listed is the Antonius to whom you refer.

I also have no idea who it is. The source says "the inhabitants of Gofnah were sold into slavery by the Roman general Cassius for failure to pay taxes, but they were freed shortly afterward by Antonius." [1] The introduction. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have a major problem with the History section, which in parts is far too loosely written. Obviously ,with a 2,000+ year period to cover, the history won't be comprehensive, but it has to be coherent, with the various eras clearly defined by dates, to give the reader a proper historical perspective. Here are some cases that require attention:-
- "Around the 6th century CE Jifna became a Christian town..." You must be able to date such a significant event more precisely.

All the source gives me is "According to the Talmud, priestly families lived in Gophna; but in the sixth century the village must have been Christian and wealthy enough to be able to build at least one church, with three naves of well-cut stones and beautiful capitals and cornices." [2] "The Ancient Church" section. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- ~~The start of the Crusader era is totally undated.~~ Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~Phrases like "...destroyed sometime afterwards" could mean anything.~~ Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~Ottoman takeover of Palestine undated.~~ Done.--Al Ameer son (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~British mandate years not mentioned in the history at all.~~ Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Demographic section is presented in a muddled way. You should present the population statistics in chronological date order, starting with 1931. You must state clearly what year the age and gender distributions refer to. Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I note you have made some alterations. I'll get back to you a little later on these.Brianboulton (talk) 21:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA review, further comments

I’ve looked at the article again, following your latest revisions.

I am prepared to help improve the prose, but the substantive issues mentioned below must be tackled first

Jifna – Gophna – Ophni isssues: Gophna is a former name for Jifna, according to your source. But there is no mention of Gophna in the Bible – none whatever. Your assumption that the Ophni mentioned in Joshua 18:24 is Gophna by another name seems totally without evidence. So the only fact you can safely say in your article is that Jifna was known in ancient times as Gophna. You should remove all references to Ophni until you can cite specific evidence connecting it to Gophna.

Actually, I provided a biblical dictionary source that states that Ophni is the modern-day Jifna. The other sources state that Gophna was Jifna so I just put it together. Should I look for a specific source that says that Gophna and Ophni are the same and that both are former names of Jifna. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your mention of “Joshua, Wars, 1.45, 3.45” etc is confusing. I think that what you have picked up actually refers not to Joshua, but to the Roman historian Josephus, who wrote the histories of the Jewish wars. I don’t know how this source could help and I wouldn’t suggest that you chase it up.

I see you have solved the Antonius identification.

On the question of when Jifna became Christian, you can’t say more in the article than is said in the source. If there is vagueness in the source this must be in the article. So I suggest you rephrase the paragraph along the lines:-

“The building of a church during the 6th century CE indicates that by this time Jifna, now under Byzantine rule, had become a Christian town. The church was dedicated to St George, and from its remains it appears that the church had…”etc etc. You should cite this information precisely, including the St George information.

I just used your suggestion. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A more general problem is that your citations are generally very imprecise, referring to long articles without any hint as to where to find the specific reference. I also notice that, in the few book sources you have, you don’t give page numbers. References should be easily checkable.

Could you note which book sources don't have page numbers. If its the map of Madaba, I don't think its a book, but either way, I placed its number in the list (#52) if that helps.

The History section, although improved by more precise dating, is still quite poor, with too much concentration on odd incidents you have picked up from your sources. This makes the section far too bitty, with no sense of an historical perspective. A couple of examples: you mention the presences of Levanters – what is the significance of this to the village? Does it have any lasting consequence for the village’s history? Another point: in the 400-year period of Ottoman rule, is the only incident worth noting the “revolt” by several males? Note that these are just examples of your piecemeal approach – don’t try and fix these in isolation. The section needs a lot of rethinking and revising.

The problem is, the village isn't too significant, other than its brief position as a regional capital and its relative importance in the Jewish-Roman wars. The Byzantines gave them Christianity or at least built or helped build its first church. The Crusaders played a somewhat important role by renovating the church and thats about it as far as significant history. The source barely mentions anything on early Muslim rule and the only significance the Ottomans had was the jailhouse and putting down a minor revolt then exiling a number of the participants to Egypt. Since we must include Muslim/Ottoman rule of the village, I feel that I'm obligated to include any history they had in the village. I assume they're rule of the town did not change Jifna's demographics much since it remained mostly Christian. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have improved the chronology of the Demographics section, but the section is still pretty uninformative, dealing only with the period since 1931. Don’t your sources give any indications of the size of Jifna in other eras? Also, demographic information given in bald figures, without commentary or explanation, is uninformative. Some commentary is necessary

I have its population in 1922 but not further than that. This however, is not a problem; I could find its population from previous eras, I'm sure. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not sure about “Village structure” as a section heading. My suggestion was “Village life”. You mention PCBS (also in Demographics) without saying what this is. Culture and festivals should be combined into a single subsection entitled Cultural life.

I renamed the sections. PCBS is an abbreviation of Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics and its mentioned in full-form in the second paragraph of the "Demographics" section and the abbreviation is in parentheses right after its mention. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, I come back to the question of sources. Your list of references looks impressive, but what actual use have you made, for example, of the source you list at [15]? Did you need to cite this very long on-line article just to confirm a couple of dates?

I do not completely understand what you're saying. Should I remove the source altogether or find different specific sources for each date? The long article mentions everything since I provided the section that the info could be found.

This is just one example - your choices of other sources seem odd, too. In the Climate section , two of your sources are “West Bank Access and Closures”, and “About Ramallah”. I would have thought that geographic and meteorological information would have come from more specialist sources. In short, I would much prefer to see a shorter list of reputable sources, with your citations indicated to precisely located information within them, than the wide-ranging but rather hotch-potch list you have at present.

Well, the latter source you pointed to is just to cite that Jifna is located along the main road, just connected by a dirt road coming from the east of the village. As for the climate, I was wary of the source myself. Do you have any websites you could suggest that deal with the climate of the area?

You need to consider the article as a whole, rather than seeking immediate fixes for individual problems. Whether you can do this all in a week I don’t know. If it can’t be done, I am willing to work with you over a longer period to get the article right. Brianboulton (talk) 11:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will try to improve the article as much I can before the deadline, but if I can't its not a problem. I see that I might have renominated the article too soon. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right in thinking you renominated a bit too soon. Let's see if we can pull the thing round in a week. Incidentally, I have found a reference to Gophna in Josephus's Wars of the Jews, Book 3 ch.3 sect 5. This says: "Jerusalem was supreme, and presided over all the neighbouring country [...] As to the other cities that were inferior to it, they presided over their several toparchies; Gophna was the second of these cities, and next to that Acrabatta..." and then a list of other cities. This is a primary source, and we can cite it.

As to Ophni, OK, I confused you when I said there was no evidence to connect biblical Ophni with Gophna. There is evidence (your source [8]) linking Jifna to Ophni, but, if you read the source fully, it expresses doubt: "Jifna might suit as to position, but the change in the initial letter [...] is not easy". Another point to bear in mind is that a period of at least 1,500 years separates Joshua's Ophni from Josephus's Gophna.

So what we can say with certainty is that Jifna was known as Gophna at the time of the Roman conquest and was an important city, citing to Josephus. We can say that it may be identified with Ophni, a city of the Joshua era 1,500 years earlier, citing this to your source [8]. I will make the necessary alterations in the lead and in the first section, and you can see what you think. Brianboulton (talk) 23:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your additions were perfect. Does this clarify the biblical and Roman eras or does the subsection still need more clarifications? --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Biblical era" is a dangerous term to use, because it covers thousands of years. You have to specify which biblical era, as in "the time of Joshua", "the time of Christ", etc. I'll check this sort of thing as I go through the article. Brianboulton (talk) 23:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit revisions

I have done a complete copyedit on the lead and on the History sections, down to and including Modern times. I think these sections are in good shape now. I have done a bit of rearranging of content, for clarity. Also, where the source is tentative I have introduced a tentative note into the text. I have added bits of information found in the sources, but have dropped the reference to Raymond of Jafenia, which didn't seem to be serving any purpose.

Where possible I have included some more precise dates and organised the chronology. If you have any problems with what I have done please leave a note here. Brianboulton (talk) 15:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your edits are flawless, however, about the Raymond of Jafenia portion, I was thinking, could Jafenia be the town's Arabic name in later centuries? I agree the sentence is pointless, but is it worth noting that Jifna was called Jafenia at some point? Other than that everything is great.

You've mentioned the Arabic name Gafeniyyah alreday. I suppose Jafenia is a variant spelling. But honestly, I'd forget about Raymond. He isn't worth any more of our time. Brianboulton (talk) 21:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "Geography and climate" section could use some more reliable refs, but I have no idea how to find the specific climate for the village as far how many degrees C/F is the average temperature for Jifna in the summer or winter. Is it ok if I use Ramallah's climate (since there are only a few kilometers between the two towns), but from a reliable meteorologic source?

Yeah, use the Ramallah details. I'll copyedit when you've done this. Brianboulton (talk) 21:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done, I used "The Weather Channel" as the climate source[3] I did the averages with the calculator.

For "Demographics", could you give me an example of commentary. Do you mean like, "The majority of Jifna's residents are below the age of 15 (34.4%)...

I'm doing a bit of work on this and I'll get back to you shortly. Brianboulton (talk) 21:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could you give me advice on how to solve some of these issues and do you see any other problems with the article? --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're making good progress. There may be a few issues with the later parts of the article, but nothing insoluble. I think you're on track to be done within the week.

Brianboulton (talk) 21:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics and other points

I've looked at the various sources for demographic information, and it's all a bit muddled, with different information, not always dated, being given. I think maybe the best thing would be to stick to the details you've got in the section at present, and I'll copyedit it into reasonable shape.

On another matter, it seems that your source numbers 22, 24 and 25 are identical and should be combined in a single number. Same is true of 26 and 27.

Also, if you want to it would be OK to add a bit to the lead, saying that there is a local tradition that the Holy Family rested in Jifna (then Gophna) after fetching the 12-year-old Jesus from the Temple in Jerusalem. You must however make it clear that this is tradition, not historical fact. You can cite to [26].

The references 22, 24 and 25 all come from the same source (the PCBS), but each is a separate file; Each ref links to a different page. Should I combine them into one footnote? --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would tidy the reference list if you did.Brianboulton (talk) 00:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the lead, should I also mention this somewhere else in the article like in "Culture". This also brings me to another thought. What do you think of me creating a subsection in "Culture" called "Traditions"? It would include the info on the Holy Family and other info as well such as local legends and the village spring.

Good idea. To avoid repetition, just say in the lead that there are local traditions and legends relating to the Holy Family and to the village spring. Then describe them in a bit more detail in theTraditions subsection. Let's see what that looks like.Brianboulton (talk) 00:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the passages from the primary source in the article:

The village has survived for centuries thanks to the spring near the main road on its north side. The water sometimes runs low and according to popular belief this is the work of a djinniye, or female spirit. Dr. T. Canaan, in his study of the spirits that would inhabit the Palestinian springs, writes about this village:'In Jifna the priest has to go on such an occasions to the dry spring to repeat prayers and burn incense, and thus reconcile the djinniye or force her to let the water flow' (JPOS 1 [1921], 161). The Jifna spirits had the form of a bride.

Legends flourished also in Jifna. Don G. Villanis collected two, which were published in 1878 in the Florentine magazine La Terra Santa (II, 99-100). At that time, a big oak sttood two hundreds meters from the Latin church, and folks would say that the Holy Family had rested in its shadow on the way back from Jerusalem, when Jesus had remained in the Temple. This legent owed its origin to the closeness of the Jerusalem-Nazareth road. The mountain that stands opposite Jifna to the south is called Jebel ed-Dick, 'Mount of the rooster,' and a story is told about this name. In Christ's time there lived in Jifna a Jew who had been visiting Jerusalem during the Passion. Now, seeing Christ risen from the dead, he converted and on his return home told his wife what had happened. She replied that she would not believe it, unless the rooster she had just killed and half-plucked would come back to life. Instantly the rooster flew away toward the mountain. These legends circulated among the people, as is attested by the fact that this one had already been recorded by Brother Liévin de Hamme in his Guide -ndicateure (Venice 1870, 457. Moreover, the legend was read in some monasteries on Holy Thursday together with other biblical readings (initial Chaine, Catalogue Abbadie, 55).

[4]

I made the PCBS refs into one footnote. I created the "Traditions" subsection and added the info to the lead. The section and the last passage of the lead might need copyeditting, and the "Climate" section should be looked at. --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is OK, and I've looked at Traditions which seems pretty OK but I'll look at it again. I've simplified the climate subsection a bit. Personally I wouldn't have this as a subsection, I'd call the section "Geography and climate" and merge them, but that's up to you.

I've also tidied up "Demographics". I would recommend you change the name of this subsection. Demographics suggests a rather more detailed analysis than we have here, which is basically population figures with age and gender breakdowns. So I have tentatively re-named the section Population. Change it back if you want.

You will need to cite a source for Robinson's 200. Also I think that the section would be improved if you started it by saying that there are no available figures for the population of Jifna (Gophna) when it was a regional capital in Roman times, but it might have been larger then. Also it is likely that there would have been big variations in the village's population through the different eras up to modern times. Then continue with the Robinson information. This would certainly improve the section.

Brianboulton (talk) 15:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have copyedited the Economy and Education sections. I didn't understand the word "titularly" in the education section - thought it might be a misprint for "tertiary". I've changed it to that, but please say what it should be.

Brianboulton (talk) 16:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I thought titularly was the better word for high school. That's my mistake, the correct word is "tertiary". Thanks for the major copyediting. Do you see any other problems that would prevent its nomination to a good article? The issues you brought up have been settled. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All I've done with Culture is swop the paragraphs round, so that the Artists' Workshop gets first mention. I was a bit worried about Jifna being a "tourist attraction" - possibly not the right wording at the moment? How about saying it attracts many visitors. Change it back if you want. No problems with Traditions.

You should remove your second External link, because you are citing it as a reference - your main source, in fact.

I'm going to leave the article alone now for 24 hours, then read it with a fresh mind. I think it's in good shape. Read it through yourself again, see if it's how you want it. I will then have to decide whether, in its amended form, it meets the GA criteria. It's looking good I think. Brianboulton (talk) 21:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the main source from external links and I'm fine with your rewording. I will read the article right now. Thanks for your tremendous help! Couldn't have done it without out you. Regards, --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I read the article and fixed all of the mistakes I saw (most of them minor). It reads very well, but my view could be biased ;). --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have done my final read-through. I repositioned a few commas, corrected one or two typos, but nothing of consequence. One more citation needs to be added, after the quote in the Population section. This quote should be cited to [25], since it comes from the Jifna article on that website.

I'll leave you to do this. I am satisfied that in its revised form the article meets Wikipedia's GA criteria, and will write a final review to that effect. Don't forget to tell someone in Jifna that the article is here - they may like to read it, and perhaps offer some suggestions of their own. Congratulations on your perseverence. Brianboulton (talk) 16:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I corrected the footnote. As for notifying some Jifna residents, absolutely. I will email a friend from there (lives in Jordan now) and I will send an email to the village website. Maybe they could give me more info on its government. I cannot thank you enough for all your help in copyeditting and verifying the article, as well as giving me suggestions on how to improve the article further. Without your help and advice the article wouldn't be good-article worthy. --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC

GA review summary

This article was renominated for GA very soon after a previous failure. In my view the main editor should have been more clearly advised then that the article was a long way short of GA standard, and that immediate renomination was inadvisable.

However, the editor acted very positively to my quite strong criticisms of the article in the form in which it was renominated. I was able to help with fixing small problems, and with copyedits, while the editor concentrated on the substantial issues, and the result is a much better article, which I believe meets all the GA criteria.

The prose is clear and adequate, is fully referenced, and has appropriate coverage of the village's history, environment, demography and daily life. I did question the editor over the quality and reliability of some of the on-line sources, and as a result some citations ahve been moved to better sources, and some material has been deleted.

The article is neutral and stable, and the images are well-chosen. All the on-line links I tested worked. I have fixed a few MoS issues, but did not do a thorough audit in this respect.

All in all, a commendable article. Brianboulton (talk) 16:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A few minor issues remain

I already fixed some obvious style issues with the city templates and guidelines (changing 'population' to 'demographics' and moving the subsections under 'village life' to their own main sections). A few sections are missing: there's nothing in the article about the local government or governance, and this needs to be added. There should be something in the article about transportation (local roads, trains, buses (if any)). Some information about local infrastructure (electricity, water supply, sewage, fire/police, hospitals/healthcare) would be nice if it's there, though it's understandable if it's not due to the size of the small village. Cheers! Dr. Cash (talk) 18:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair to the editor, he changed Demographics to Population at my suggestion - I thought that there wasn't sufficient analysis available to justify the Demographics heading. So that was my fault. Also, there is a line in the lead about village governance (village council and a (named) mayor). Brief information is also included about electricity, sewage and water, in the Economy subsection, and roads links are mentioned in the Geography section. So the article does touch on the sections you say are missing. No doubt a little detail could be added, but as you say, it's a small village so there won't be a lot. Brianboulton (talk) 19:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I know the article needs a government section. I was telling Brianboulton that I might contact the village website for info on this. However, I don't know if they would reply So far we only have that Jifna is governed by a village council and its mayor. Transportation is somewhat covered (roads) in the "Geography and climate" section. I will try to find info on bus stations and stops though. As for the local infrastructure, we provided info on Jifna's connection to electricity, sewage and water supply, but I don't believe there are any hospitals, fire or police stations in the village. Ramallah or al-Bireh handles that I believe. But there must be a clinic(s), so I will try to find info on that. Thank you for your suggestions. Regards, --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]