Talk:Just Like a Woman/GA1
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Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 09:32, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Good Article review progress box
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This will run over the course of two days. --K. Peake 09:32, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Infobox and lead
[edit]- Why is August 18 listed as the release date in the infobox when only August is sourced?
- Added date into the body text. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Genres should be sourced directly in the body, rather than having refs in the infobox
- Removed. Genre descriptions for songs on Blonde on Blonde are really inconsistent, so I'd rather leave it blank. (see Talk:Rainy_Day_Women_♯12_&_35#Infobox for variation in another track's descriptions). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:12, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- "first released on his seventh studio album," → "from his seventh studio album," and place the release year in brackets instead
- "It was written by Dylan and" → "The song was written by Dylan and"
- Amended per the two points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- The lead feels a bit out of order; writing/recording detail should be after the producer and songwriter, then release
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- Move the commercial info to the end of the second para and add more, as the song charted in multiple countries
- "some critics have suggested" start a new sentence here to avoid a run-on
- "allegedly wrote "Just Like a Woman" on" → "allegedly wrote it on"
- Avoid the world claim per WP:CLAIM
- "Dylan recorded the track" → "Dylan recorded the song" and capitalize the word Studio
- Amended per the five points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- "frequent collaborator Al Kooper along with" → "frequent collaborator Al Kooper, alongside" removing the guitarists introduction from the lead, but where are these two sourced as the ones that join them?
- I've removed these from the lead, no real reason to single out Kooper or two of the guitarists. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- "Dylan's version of the song at number 232" → "Dylan's version at number 232"
- "and became a hit across Europe," → "and was a hit across Europe,"
- Amended per the two points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- "It received good reviews" → "The song received positive reviews" remove the upon release part and add what was praised
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Background and recording
[edit]- The source on the img text offers no mention of organ
- Amended the caption and source.
- I don't think any of the albums need commas around them
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk)
- "Dylan's producer, Bob Johnston suggested" → "Dylan's producer Bob Johnston suggested"
- "his journey to Nashville, and" → "his journey to Nashville and"
- Pipe master take to Mastering (audio)
- Amended per the three points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:18, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Pipe Columbia Studio to Quonset Hut Studio and why is Studio B not mentioned?
- Turns out it was Studio A, not the Quonset Hut Studio. I added a reference. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- "Seven complete takes and multiple" → "Seven complete takes, and multiple"
- You are using the wrong AllMusic ref for the release date; cite the album's one instead
- Amended the ref. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:18, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Where does he write it was arguably the most commercial track?
- Hmm, on reflection that's not a good summary of "There was a time, specifically 1966, when a song like this ... could crack the Top 40. It is certainly one of the most, if not the most, radio-friendly track on the masterful double record". Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:18, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Wikilink bass guitar
- "Kooper on organ and" → "Kooper on organ, and" with the pipe
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:18, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- [4][12][13] why is [4] here when it does not provide any of the info?
- Removed as redundant. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:18, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- "unusually for Dylan," → "unusually for him,"
- "just can't fit"." → ""just can't fit."" per MOS:QUOTE on full sentences
- Amended per the two points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:18, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Composition and lyrical interpretation
[edit]- Pipe compilation to Compilation album and remove the comma after it
- Avoid the word claim per WP:CLAIM
- "at work on this song" → "at work on the song"
- "that Dylan improvised the lyrics in the studio, by" → "that he improvised the lyrics in the studio by"
- "This exploration of" → "Dylan's exploration of" per this being a new para
- "or some similar" → "or a similar" and is debutante really an appropriate term?
- Amended. I suspect that Heylin's use of the word was a reference to the debutante in "Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again" - he often uses terms or phrases from Dylan's songs in his books. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:51, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- "Discussing whether the biographical basis of this song is important," → "Discussing whether the biographical basis is important,"
- Removed as the source was not suitable, per WP:RSSM. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:51, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- "The target of the song is" → "The subject of the song is"
- "in Dylan's song." → "in "Just Like a Woman"."
- All done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:51, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Alleged sexism
[edit]- Again, the ref on the img text does not back up the info
- Removed it as there is no free to use rationale covering the US, as far as I can see). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Remove overly obvious wikilink on lyrics
- Should the newspaper be referred to as The New York Times or was the name different back in 1971?
- Shelton has "...wrote in The New York Times..." Looks from The New York Times like this has been the title since 1896. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- "of sexist slurs," and" → "of sexist slurs", and" per MOS:QUOTE
- Too much quoting from the AllMusic review is overkill; try to summarize this a bit more
- I trimmed rather than summarized. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- "Janovitz concludes by" → "Janovitz concluded by"
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Critical reception
[edit]- "Asbury Park Press columnist" → "The Asbury Park Press columnist"
- Add a space before Billboard and mention it was a reviewer of the magazine
- Either add the staff or a writer of before Cash Box
- "believes that Dylan" → "believed that Dylan" for consistent tense
- "The Sun-Herald's reviewer dismissed" → "The Sun-Herald's reviewer dismissed" with the wikilink
- Mention that Craig McGregor is from The Sydney Morning Herald with the wikilink
- "Arizona Republic reviewer Troy Irvine" → "The Arizona Republic reviewer Troy Irvine" with the wikilink
- "likewise, called it" → "likewise, called the song"
- "enough to compensate"." → "enough to compensate."" per MOS:QUOTE
- "Gray highlights the lyric" → "Gray highlights the lines"
- "He does, however, praise" → "He did, however, praise"
- All done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:03, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Live versions and later releases
[edit]- First para looks good!
- Remove pipe on compilations
- Maybe add the release years of the compilations in brackets?
- "of that album." → "of the album."
- Where are the live recordings sourced?
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- "and the Deluxe Edition of" → "and the deluxe edition of" per unnecessary capitalization
- Removed this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- "were released in the boxed set" → "were released in the box set" but this release is not sourced
- Removed this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- "and Ravi Shankar's Concert for Bangladesh" → "and Ravi Shankar's The Concert for Bangladesh" with the wikilink
- All addressed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Credits and personnel
[edit]- Good
Manfred Mann version
[edit]- The genres mentioned in the infobox are not sourced
- Removed. I struggled to find sources, and not having one would be consistent with what I suggest for the Dylan version infobox. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:12, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Remove overly obvious wikilink on London
- Removed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:12, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Background and recording
[edit]- "Mike Hugg and Tom McGuinness," → "Mike Hugg, and Tom McGuinness," on the img text, also shouldn't they be identified as a group?
- The Mann-Hugg Blues Brothers → the Mann-Hugg Blues Brothers per MOS:THEMUSIC
- "had started disintegrating." → "had started to break up."
- "the group had begun" → "Manfred Mann had begun"
- "early 1966 which left Jones unable to perform, the group hired" → "early 1966, which left Jones unable to perform, Manfred Mann hired"
- "in June of that year, leaving the rest of the band" → "in June 1966, leaving the other members"
- "also leaving the group" → "also leaving Manfred Mann"
- "d'Abo who had recently quit his band accepted" → "d'Abo, who had recently quit his band, accepted"
- Mention what year June was in since this is a new para
- "the band signed a contract" → "the group signed a contract"
- "with the group staying on that label" → "with them staying on the label"
- "who had produced" → "who had produced for"
- "the Who and David Bowie," → "the Who, and David Bowie,"
- "that the Manfreds were fans" → "that the members were fans"
- "The band had scored a hit" → "The group had scored a hit"
- Remove commas around Kenneth Pitt
- "much of the Manfreds'" → "much of their"
- All addressed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:28, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Release and reception
[edit]- "as the group's debut single on that label" → "as Manfred Mann's debut single on their label"
- "over who's version" → "over whose version"
- "Bob Dylan crashed his motorcycle," → "Dylan crashed his motorcycle,"
- "The Manfreds version was backed by" → "Manfred Mann's version was backed by"
- Introduce who Manfred Mann is to avoid confusion with the group as a whole
- Avoid the world claimed per WP:CLAIM
- "at number ten" → "at number 10" per MOS:NUM
- "It spent ten weeks on the chart." → "The song spent 10 weeks on the Record Retailer chart."
- "to Bruce Eder of AllMusic meant that Manfreds" → "to Bruce Eder of AllMusic, meant that the other version's" but is this really the link?
- Yes, but the quote wasn't exact. Amended, and added Eder as the author in the citation. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:58, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- "In Disc and Music Echo, it reached number nine," → "It reached number nine in Disc and Music Echo,"
- Pipe New Musical Express to NME
- "Across Europe it was" → "Across Europe, the version was" but you need a source for this
- Changed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:58, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- "reviewed both Manfred Mann's and Jonathan King's version, but preferred the Manfreds version," → "reviewed both Manfred Mann's and King's versions, but preferred the former,"
- "which she attributed to" → "She attributed this to"
- "she believed it would do better in the charts if Paul Jones" → "she believed the song would do better in the charts if Jones"
- "a "fine-tempoed arrangement."" → "a "fine-tempoed arrangement"." per MOS:QUOTE
- Add something like a writer or reviewer for Billboard and Cash Box
- "and predicted it to reach the" → "and predicted to reach the"
- Amended per the points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:58, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Charts
[edit]Manfred Mann version
[edit]- See MOS:TABLECAPTION
- I think Lyons Maid is linked to something of the same name that is irrelevant
- Judging by the online images I found when searching, that brand was actually the sponsor of those charts. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Why so many UK charts?
- As far as I can tell, all the UK charts meet the criteria in WP:CHARTS. (See, e.g. UK Singles Chart). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Pipe New Musical Express to NME
- Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk)
- Add Billboard and Cashbox in brackets instead
- Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk)
I removed the NZ chart - see Talk:Rainy_Day_Women_♯12_&_35#Charts_and_positions for some discussion on that one. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:03, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Bob Dylan version
[edit]- Shouldn't this be first since he is the original performer?
- Moved, to follow order in the article, although the Manfred Mann single was issued before Dylan's single. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- See MOS:TABLECAPTION
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Add Cashbox in brackets instead
- Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk)
Notes
[edit]- Good
References
[edit]- Copyvio score looks great at 24.8%!!!
- Wikilink Scarecrow Press
- Wikilink Broadway Books
- Wikilink Omnibus Press
- Wikilink Continuum International Publishing Group
- Wikilink Princeton University Press
- Wikilink Penguin Books
- Bodley Head → The Bodley Head with the wikilink
- Pipe Black Dog & Leventhal to Black Dog & Leventhal Publishers
- Wikilink Grove Press
- Wikilink University of Illinois Press
- Pipe Reed International Books to RELX
- Wikilink Billboard Books per MOS:LINK2SECT
- Pop Matters → PopMatters with the wikilink and shouldn't this be italicised?
- Wikilink Yale University Press
- Linked/amended the above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:26, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Wikilink Visible Ink Press on ref 1
- Removed rather than amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:26, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Always cite AllMusic as publisher and wikilink solely on ref 2
- Combined these as the different urls seem to go to the same content. BennyOnTheLoose (talk)
- Wikilink Rolling Stone on ref 3
- The San Francisco Examiner → San Francisco Examiner on ref 22
- Remove or replace ref 23 per WP:RSSM
- Removed - surprisingly, Ricks has nothing about the song in Dylan's Visions of Sin. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:42, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Pipe MBL to Marine Biological Laboratory on ref 31
- Wikilink The Post-Crescent on ref 32
- Why is C.H. in speech marks on ref 33
- Removed the speech marks. They were intended to show it's a pseudonym or initials. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:42, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Wikilink Asbury Park Press on ref 34
- Pipe Cashbox to Cashbox (magazine) on ref 36 instead of refs 86 and 93
- Sun-Herald → The Sun-Herald on ref 38 with the wikilink
- Wikilink The Sydney Morning Herald on ref 39
- Arizona Republic → The Arizona Republic on ref 40 with the wikilink
- Wikilink The Guardian on ref 48
- What makes ref 62 a reliable source?
- bestclassicbands.com has editorial overview; the author of that article was Jeff Tamarkin, who has credentials listed at [1]. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:37, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- WP:OVERLINK of Melody Maker on ref 71
- WP:OVERLINK of Disc and Music Echo on ref 74
- WP:OVERLINK of Record World on refs 87 and 94
- All done - subject to comments/exceptions noted above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk)
External links
[edit]- Good
Final comments and verdict
[edit]On hold until all of the issues are fixed! --K. Peake 12:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Many thanks for the thorough review, K. Peake. I've replied to your comments above; let me know what else needs to be done. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:31, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- ✓ Pass now, I copyedited some of the sloppy areas but your hard work definitely reached the mark! --K. Peake 20:36, 17 January 2023 (UTC)