Talk:Kalākaua's 1881 world tour/Archive 1

Archive 1

Homecoming

Why exactly is the homecoming section (i.e. his journey across the entire continental United States) so short?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:40, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm still working on the article, and would like to find more coverage on the homecoming than I've seen. You can only reword the newspaper coverage so much without verging on lifting the entire newspaper article. Also, there is very, very little about that journey across the United States. What you see, is what I've found. Feel free to add anything to that section you wish. — Maile (talk) 01:43, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

I will look into getting more detail about it.

I'm not surprised you found nothing. The last leg of the journey seems boring compared to his European trip. I wonder if it was possible he didn't do as much because he already visited the US in 1874-75. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:27, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

When you think about it, there are mostly no details of what happened while they were on ships or railways going from one country to the other. If no one reported back about it, there was nothing for the papers. It certainly was possible then, and now, to take a train all the way across America and do nothing but eat and sleep. I had found one small mention (a sentence or two) of the entire group getting off at some wealthy person's house in one of the northern states. It said they were too tired to do anything but rest. — Maile (talk) 13:27, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Did you happen to see this in case you missed any of the listed sources?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:54, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

I actually have this page bookmarked. I will re-check it to see if I missed anything important. I am so grateful for UHManoa library, and the Hawaiian Historical Society for sourcing. That's where he steps off the pages from being a one-dimensional historic figure to being a relatable human being. I had debated about whether this article could be FAC, but I think I've made up my mind to nominate it. — Maile (talk) 13:27, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

When I nominate it for FAC, would you like to be a co-nominator? You've contributed to the images, and have been invaluable with pointing me towards sourcing. Not the least of that has been the sourcing list on Liliuokalani. — Maile (talk) 13:30, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Sure I will attempt to help in anyway I can.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 13:40, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

KAVEBEAR I was just looking at Armstrong's book, page 275. In one sentence he mentions Kalakaua buying horses in Kentucky (which happened before the train trip). And the very next sentence/paragraph is "When we reached San Francisco ... " So, I guess if there was nothing for Armstrong to say, the train trip must have been uneventful. I knew about the horses, but that just fills a sentence and didn't seem important enough to put in the article. If you disagree, feel free to add something about the horses. — Maile (talk) 02:33, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

After visiting Yorktown, Norfolk and the Hampton School on the governmental vessel Dispach, they returned to DC and they then went from Cincinnati to Kentucky to Chicago to Omaha to San Francisco. I will add what I can later. Besides the horse buying, there is also his visit with Thomas Edison as well which may be an interesting lead since the king was an amateur inventor himself and electricity was used later at Iolani Palace in 1886. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:52, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

KAVEBEAR Along those lines ... do you know the PBS series Globe Trekker? Today they ran an hour-long travelogue on Hawaii. A brief few minutes are inside Iolani Palace. Don't know how accurate this is, but the tour guide said Kalakaua put electric lights inside the palace after the Edison meeting you are referring to, the inference being it was that meeting that made him get the electricity. They also mentioned he had telephones probably about that same time. — Maile (talk) 23:45, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

The palace wasn't completed until November 1882 and most sources state that the palace got electical lights on July 21, 1886 [1]. Don't know about the phone though, which may seem to have been installed earlier in 1883. Edison may have some role in sparking the king's interests in electricity though. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:16, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

KAVEBEAR I found a newspaper article about Kalakaua's visit to Edison, and I've added a paragraph. Edit as you wish. One of the interesting aspects of finding that article is that it dispels a story that I've found repeated in many normally verifiable sources while trying to find this article. The story that is so often repeated is that Kalakaua made a serious comment to Edison about generating electricity by harnassing the power of Hawaii's volcanoes. It wasn't Kalakaua who made the remark. It was Armstrong, and he was making a joke when he said it. — Maile (talk) 23:04, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Maile66 I've created an article for Charles Hastings Judd. There is a lot about him so its only a condense biography. Did you happen across anything about his role in the 1881 tour worth mentioning? I noticed Armstrong makes fun a lot about the king and his honorary army in his book, calling it a skeleton in his closet.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:40, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

KAVEBEAR Nice little article on Judd. The only interesting things I (so far) found about Judd, I put in this tour article. Regarding Armstrong, I thought he was often condescending about Kalakaua. Have you read the part where Kalakaua asks him why countries go to war? (pp 249-250). Speaking of Kalakaua's army, I don't see anywhere he brought along any armed security protection. It looks to me like it was just Kalakaua and his friends, unless a given country provided it as routine measures. Am I correct about that? If so, it's remarkable that he made it home alive. Thought I might mention it in the FAC blurb, but I'm not sure if he had his own guards or not. — Maile (talk) 00:03, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

He did have his own guards in Hawaii. There were the Royal Household Guards which was the only actual armed force in the kingdom, but no I don't think he had any arm guards during his travel nor were his traveling companion fit to be bodyguards. Judd and Macfarlane were just honorary military officials. I think a war department of some sort was created around 1886 during the Gibson administration in which Dominis was named Lieutenant General and Commander in Chief. It might be significant to mention the fact that the king tried to emulate the splendor he experienced in Europe back in Hawaii with Gibson encouraging him with grandiose ideas like the creation of the Polynesian Confederation (similar to the example of the confederacy he suggested to Emperor Meiji) and the consequential expenditure increase, which was used as points of criticism by his political opponents and we see that in Armstrong's satirical and critical tone in his book.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:26, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

FAC

KAVEBEAR Unless you have reservations otherwise, I believe I'll put this up for FAC the first week of January. I've added what I could find on the return to the United States/Hawaii. — Maile (talk) 22:49, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

No not really. Go ahead. Did you find anything on the cost of the trip or the attitude of officials back in the islands toward the trip and its cost?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:39, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

I believe I've seen blurbs about it. I'll go back through sourcing and look at what's there. — Maile (talk) 13:01, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Both taken care of and added/sourced. Kalakaua's expenses, according to Thrum's, was $22,500. — Maile (talk) 21:59, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

BTW, thanks for inserting the picture of President Arthur in the article. I, too, can see the resemblance between Kalakaua and him. It's like one of those Separated at birth joke images. Perhaps the beard/sideburns and chubbiness have a lot to do with that. And maybe because Armstrong put that idea into my head. Funny. — Maile (talk) 01:21, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Paris section

KAVEBEAR, this edit needs some clarification. Did they explain it? To whom? Are you saying they wanted an explanation, but were snubbed instead? Or is it just missing the word "yet", perhaps "while he was in London had yet to be explained". I'm unsure. — Maile (talk) 15:39, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

To the French. Because they did not call on the French during their first stopover and didn't answer Grevy's invitation in July, they were slighted by the French authorities and no one received them at the train station and basically from Armstrong's descriptions everyone in the French foreign office gave them attitude. The Hawaiian party had to explain to the French their errors and then the French foreign minister visited the King.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:12, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Kalākaua's emulation of European monarchies

KAVEBEAR, I added a small paragraph about this below the paragraph about Iolani Palace/electric lighting in the Aftermath section. I didn't mention Gibson, because that's such a complicated issue about how he oozed his way into the picture. Didn't seem like it could be made relevant in a sentence or two. — Maile (talk) 16:06, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

• Putting this source here for the moment: King Kalakaua's Silver Jubilee — Maile (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• Harper's Weekly says the birthday jubilee cost $75,000. — Maile (talk) 02:42, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Currency converter

I debated using a currency converter in this article to show the current valuation. It is only relevant to one figure in the Rumors section, and select places in the Aftermath section. I decided against it, because the currency converter templates for the US only take the valuation as far as 2015. Also, I don't care for the resulting format look. If we can't be up-to-date on the conversion, I see no reason in using the template. — Maile (talk) 17:28, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Sicily

Is there a way to date the landing in Sicily (mentioned by Armstrong) because before June 30 they had already landed in Europe and Italy.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:29, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your question. It is because I didn't really put a date on Sicily? I don't see Sicily mentioned in any source but Armstrong, and he didn't date it. They left Cairo on June 24 and arrived in Naples, Italy on June 30. That June 30 Naples date is confirmed by the source I just stuck next to it. Are you questioning the date on the section header? — Maile (talk) 01:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I placed it there. I'm just wondering if there was a way to date it if it is presumably before the landfall in Naples on June 30.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:00, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I'll think this over. Probably reply tomorrow. You are correct in that it looks awkward the way it is. In the meantime, if you have a better idea, go ahead and do it. I just checked Kalakaua's letters home, and he doesn't mention Sicily at all. He just says they landed at Naples at 11 a.m. on June 30. — Maile (talk) 02:05, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I doubt he would have written about everything. But presumably it could be the day before when they visited Sicily, but I wish there was a better way to know more definitely the date. I feel it is important to include but as you said it looks out of place under the current header and moving to the Egyptian section may not make much sense.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:14, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I did just adjust the wording somewhat. But, yes, we still need to find some kind of date. I doubt they did sight seeing on Sicily, and arrived at 11 a.m. on the same date in Naples. — Maile (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

And by the way, we've had 607 edits to this article so far. Whew! I no longer know who did what unless I search through the history. As you can tell that I didn't know who added the Sicily landing. I spent most of today going through the article to see what needed to be honed. I found errors that I didn't remember being in there. In some cases, it was my error, and in some cases not. The team effort has been good, but more to come ... — Maile (talk) 02:53, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I did find the Rick Steves - Catania to Naples, which says a ferry trip is a 12-hour trip. Maybe an 1881 steamship was faster, but still not fast enough for shopping on Sicily and lunch in Naples the same day. — Maile (talk) 22:53, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm wondering if it is possible to track the course of the steamship in the Mediterranean.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:17, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't know. That would be interesting in itself. Have a look at where I just edited in the article. I think I may have fixed the problem with the date. But please edit it as you wish. — Maile (talk) 23:23, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Date of departure from Hawaii

We seem to have conflicting sources, both of them in Hawaii.

The Pacific Commercial Advertiser of February 26, 1881 states, "On the morning of 22nd January, the City of Sydney steamed away from Honolulu with the royal party." "The King's Tour Around the World". Honolulu, Hawaiian Islands: The Pacific Commercial Advertiser. February 26, 1881. Retrieved December 16, 2016 – via Chronicling America: Historic American Newspapers. Lib. of Congress.

The Saturday Press of January 22, 1881 states, "Early on Thursday morning H. M. the King, escorted by the troops and band, and a large crowd of people, native and foreign, proceeded to the steamer wharf, and His Majesty embarked on board the City of Sydney, for San Francisco and the round trip of the world." "Saturday Press". Honolulu, Hawaii: The Saturday Press. January 22, 1881. Retrieved December 16, 2016 – via Chronicling America: Historic American Newspapers. Lib. of Congress.

One of those is not correct. I initially wrote it as a departure on January 22. KAVEBEAR changed it to January 20. The Pacific Commercial Advertiser of February 26, 1881 was most likely a typo on its date of 22nd January, so I agree to the change. — Maile (talk) 14:03, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

I made the change because Iolani Palace made a post on the trip yesterday and also the source (PCA 01/22/1881) following the sentence states the 20th .--KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:31, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Can you direct me to that? Not for this article, but because I don't find anything about the trip on Iolani Palace.org. Am I looking at the wrong site? — Maile (talk) 18:56, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

https://www.facebook.com/iolanipalace/?fref=ts Their facebook page. That just made me double check the sources here on the date. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:08, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Ah...I hadn't thought of looking there. Very good, thanks. — Maile (talk) 19:17, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

2017 Merrie Monarch Festival

@KAVEBEAR: Depending on how the timeline works out on the FAC, I'd love to be able to request this for the Main Page during this year's Merrie Monarch Festival April 16 - 22. That would be ideal. However, the process is slow, so ... — Maile (talk) 21:51, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Or his return to Honolulu (October 29) or his birthday (November 16), these are some good anniversary dates.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:52, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Labor

Labour not labor. This is written in English, use it properly or learn a different language. Bobbaker84 (talk) 23:03, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Labour is British. Hawaii is American where it's spelled labor. — Maile (talk) 23:05, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Removed

I have removed this content. It was an anecdotal quote that used a racial epithet about Kalakaua taken out of context and adds nothing of FA quality content to this article. In the full context of one of the sources given, the quote was used by the book's author to support their position on European racial problems and serves no purpose in this article. — Maile (talk) 16:06, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

The Edward VII quote is probably the best known incident from Kalakaua's world tour. It has been discussed by many sources as a way of illustrating the complex interplay of race and class status in European society at the time, and it illustrates an important aspect of Kalakaua's world tour that belongs in the article - how he and his royal status were received in societies that were racially prejudiced against Hawaiians.

https://books.google.com/books?id=mDFaAAAAYAAJ https://books.google.com/books?id=daDh_x2Ne_wC&pg=PA8 https://books.google.com/books?id=g24Bza22uSIC&pg=PT354 https://books.google.com/books?id=nNsXZkdHvXUC&pg=PA577 https://books.google.com/books?id=VG01nx2vezoC&pg=PA326 and discussed in The New Republic https://newrepublic.com/article/92620/ornamentalism-david-cannadine NY Review of Books http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2002/11/07/nobs-nabobs/ The anecdote belongs in the article per WP:NOTCENSORED. 1177BC (talk) 17:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Just because we don't want articles to be censored doesn't mean we automatically have to include a piece of content in an article. In this case, I agree with the primary contributor that the quote was put there for shock value; it's also possible that there was some larger political point being made with the edit (what Maile seems to be saying), but I don't know enough about the subject to state that with any certainty. I took the quote out, but can see that I've been reverted. Since I have no real interest in the topic I won't touch the article again, but put me down as opposing the presence of the quote as well. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:08, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Name

Is this an optimal name for the article? Kalākaua's 1874–75 state visit to the United States lacks “King” while this could be easily Kalākaua's world tour or Kalākaua's 1881 world tour. Are there precedents or naming conventions for other similar articles? KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:48, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

That thought crossed my mind, too, after we started the state visit article. — Maile (talk) 12:10, 17 November 2018 (UTC)