Talk:Katznelson

Etymology: Katzenellenbogen?

The text that katzenelson comes from katzenellenbogen is given without source.

In fact, all Katzenelson's are Kohanim, and, all Katzenellenbogens are yisrael. Therefore katzenelson cannot come from katzenellenbogen. To claim otherwise, you have to have a very good source. Absent said sources, I am removing that part of the text.

Here is a link to Beryl's tombstone showing the designation "HaCohen" http://www.israelimages.com/see_image_details.php?idi=24205. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.12.114 (talk) 02:31, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Edits May 20, '16

Cleaned up the text to focus on the point, that paternal lineage is not the same. There are many authors who confuse these two families, and it is simply an impossibility.

These two famous families have been well known as Cohen (Katzenelson) and Israel (Katzenellenbogen) since the time family names have existed. Indeed in Wikipedia, the family Katzenellenbogen is said to be founded by Meir ben Yitzhak also known as the Maharam de Padua and he is not call Meir ben Yitzhak haChohen.

Whether or not the designation Cohen is considered by some to be valid going back to the first temple, is entirely irrelevant to this article and entirely irrelevant to the point that the families are not the same. It is sufficient that Katzenelson carries the designation, and that Katzenellenbogen does not and did not at the time that the family name was founded. Therefore the discussion about Cohanim and converts etc is removed for being irrelevant. It belongs in a different article.

This is to add my somewhat belated signature to the above two comments.DrKN1 (talk) 00:01, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

OR, needs RS:

"It might be noted that Katzenelson and Katzenellenbogen are not the same lineage. Katzenelsons are regarded as Cohanim (descendants of the priesthood through male lineage, part of the tribe of Levi). For example, the designation "HaCohen" (the cohen) is engraved into the tombstone of Berl Katzenelson. The illustrious family Katzenellenbogen are regarded as Yisraelim (descendants of tribes other than Levi). In as much as the designations Cohen, Levi and Yisrael follow paternal lineage, it is unlikely that well known families that have different designations would share a paternal line." Arminden (talk) 12:56, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

See here:

https://surnames.behindthename.com/bb/sur/3387096

Marc (picard), 11/4/2008, 6:19 PM

Your answer is purely speculative and doesn't rest on any solid historical evidence as far as I can see. The ultimate source is Guggenheimer & Guggenheimer's Jewish Family Names and Their Origins wich is the most comprehensive and reliable Jewish onomastics dictionary. In it, you'll find that Katznelson, along with Katzeneleson, Kazenelson, Kaznelson, is derived from Katzenellenbogen (also Katzenlenbogen, Katznelbogen). This comes from the placename Katzenelnbogen, a small principality in central Germany whose major source of revenue was protection money paid by the Jews. There is additional information on this in The Oxford Names Companion which was cited in the original answer which there was no reason to question in the first place.

There you go. Let's see if G&G is accessible online.

Your arguments are of religious character, based on Bible, Talmud, and some farfetched speculation to unite the dots. Jewish history - any history - is much more than that, not Diaspora, exile, Galut, but actual life and history, which tends to escape simple dogmatic religious pidgenholing. Arminden (talk) 13:43, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Here it is: Guggenheimer, Heinrich Walter; Guggenheimer, Eva H. (1992). Jewish Family Names and Their Origins: An Etymological Dictionary. KTAV Publishing House. ISBN 0881252972. Retrieved 15 July 2024. Arminden (talk) 14:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

References