Talk:Kauhajoki school shooting/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Quote

Could someone edit that whole quote is from lyrics song named "War", band Wumpscut(also his YouTube account-nick, Wumpscut86)? Yakuzakyuu (talk) 12:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP

Since Saari is still alive we need to be aware of WP:BLP issues. He is the "alleged perpetrator" until he is officially convicted. It is just reported that he died. Harry the Dog WOOF 14:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

still alive after suicide attempt

More news will probably trickle in, but for now I read that he tried to kill himself and didn't succeed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.102.208.34 (talk) 13:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I just heard that he died too. I'm trying to find a source... --86.60.200.155 (talk) 14:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
It's on YLE page too, ref [2] --86.60.200.155 (talk) 14:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

In the news?

 Done

Nine feared to have been killed, so this should also be "In the news" on the main page,..shouldn't it? -- Jepa (talk) 12:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

In the future, see WP:ITN/C to suggest ideas. SpencerT♦C 19:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggested change to "shooting" section

From: Saari remained at large for on the college grounds for approximately 90 minutes

To: Saari remained at large on the college grounds for approximately 90 minutes

59.100.201.243 (talk) 23:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion. Done and credited![1] —Sladen (talk) 00:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The actions of the police will now be investigated.

obviously it should be "being investigated." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.102.111.57 (talk) 17:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC) or, on the other hand, I'm apparently an illiterate idiot and should keep my mouth shut...

This currently[2] reads "It was announced that the actions of the police would be investigated", hopefully that's in keeping with the encyclopedic style. Thank you for the suggestion! —Sladen (talk) 00:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow

I Havent Seen Much Of This On The News. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.5.90 (talk • contribs) at 00:46, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Any injured?

Did anyone survive being shot, or were all of the shot people killed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by McLoaf (talk • contribs) 19:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

One woman is critically ill. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Name change

I think this title needs to be changed to "school shooting" instead of "shooting incident." Seen any articles of school shootings similar to this one with "shooting incident" in the title? No. They're either "___ school shooting" or "___ school massacre," etc.

This must be changed. {Tim C} 23:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyanidethistles (talk • contribs)

I think it might be worth hanging on until the media and people in general standardise on their common usage, we can then follow that. Some end up being massacre (eg. Dunblame, Texas), others "shootings" or "school shooting". Current the school/college itself has used "shooting incident"[3]. —Sladen (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed incident, so now it's just Kauhajoki shooting. School shooting wouldn't really add any specificity, but "incident" is redundant and bureaucratic. However, if there's demand for another title, let me know. Superm401 - Talk 09:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Naming the article

There's already Jokela school shooting so should the name of this article, accordingly, be Kauhajoki school shooting? Or Kauhajoki vocational school shooting? (I admit, the latter is quite long) -- Jepa (talk) 10:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The former is good. Kittybrewster ☎ 10:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
(I mean, the incidents are similar in the way that this occurred also in a school, therefore "school shooting") -- Jepa (talk) 12:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Its not a school though. Its a vocational college. I think the name is fine as it is. brob (talk) 18:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
A vocational college is also a school. -- 145.92.14.237 (talk) 10:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Copycat?

I do not think the BBC news source is enough to call this a copycat shooting.

It may bear some similarities to the Jokela school shooting, but there are also numerous differences.

  • Jokela was a high school
    • Kauhajoki is a vocational college (TAFE right?).
  • Auvinen used a SIG Mosquito
    • Saari used a Walther P22 (ok, weak, both .22 semi-automatic pistols).
  • Auvinen used a gun alone
    • Saari is suggested to have used incendinary devices to start a fire.
  • Auvinen did not conceal his identity from my understanding
    • Saari wore a balaclava.
  • Auvinen considered himself an extremist god-like revolutionary judging humanity
    • No similar motivation appears to be from Saari. He seems a vindictive gun/war-fanatic obsessed with death and murder.

There is nothing more than journalistic speculation that this is a true copycat event, where Saari has deliberately gone to lengths to imitate Auvinen. I'd rather an official source (police) saying this is a definite copycat.

Or am I misunderstanding the use of teh term – will all Finnish school-shootings be considered Auvinen copycats?--ZayZayEM (talk) 23:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

He used YouTube to "warn" people. He published strikingly similar photos in terms of angles, he listened to industrial music (okay, this is pointless but good for the giggles), he used a .22 LR gun, he tried to set the school on fire but failed, he shot himself but did not die until he was hospitalized, and it wasn't obvious that he would do anything like that to any of his peers. --nlitement [talk] 23:36, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

*Shrug*. WP:VERIFY: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth [..]". —Sladen (talk) 00:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
There are some rumours that Auvinen and Saari knew each other. They both bought their guns from the same place in Jokela. This could be the reason for the similarities. --85.157.178.172 (talk) 15:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Location

Western Finland is actually the province, not just western Finland. Was there any particular intention with deleting this? —Sladen (talk) 20:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it's better as it is, the reason being that the sentence is refering to the country, and not the province (this is why Finland alone was linked). 'Western' (not capitalized) gives the reader a better idea of where it is geographically, and there's no real need to include another political subdivision. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 20:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the brevity is a good argument for the main text; would a balance to be to have the full "address" in the RHS infobox? —Sladen (talk) 21:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 Done. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 21:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The perpetrator

There needs to be more information on the perpetrator when the details have come more closely together. I will gladly help. {Tim C} 22:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant. The key thing is just to keep combing the news reports/police reports/statements as they come out. I think the latest BBC article[4] might have some new information near the top. —Sladen (talk) 00:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
has it been confirmed that he had been threatened by a man with a handgun last winter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.195.46.112 (talk) 09:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
It has been confirmed. See article from Helsingin Sanomat here. It refers to documents published by municipal court (i.e. that threat went through court proceedings). The man in question (36-year old) had also committed some other crimes, and he was given a short jail sentence. --Ras (talk) 23:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Style of article

Due to the ongoing development of this story and the need to avoid WP:RECENTISM and copyright violations, it is best to avoid writing in a style that looks like wholesale copy and paste from online news sources. It is better to summarise the online sources briefly, and to let people read the citations themselves. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 20:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

This will happen naturally over time.. --nlitement [talk] 22:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
It's only recentism in that it's recent. The recentism of WP:RECENTISM is where recent events are given undue weight in a wider timeframe, so that isn't an issue (the entry at this stage is fine). Wholesale? No, the odd phrase is the same for lack of a better way of putting it. I've amended the areas where I might be an issue. This is usually how reaction pans out, and it's better to do it in detail now, whilst the sources are most easily available. I doubt much more will be reported on the matter politically; if there is, the information I entered can be contracted, but for the time being, there's no reason to deprive readers of it. There's nothing bad about it being long -- virtually all of the main news reports metioned the high rate of gun ownership, and the only reason that they failed to expound on it was for reasons of expediency.
If you think it's too long or recent, then look at the Jokela article, where most of the information is from the first few days. The Jokela section on political reaction is only slightly shorter and is more disjointed, but I wouldn't consider trimming it. The Columbine article, a former FA, also includes lots on the social and political reaction. Finally, the amount of coverage given to assessing the gun culture in Finland and political reaction in news reports justifies the length, as does the strong reaction from politicians in Finland. It's been the catalyst for a lot of changes. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 23:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I still think that the Government Response section is far too long in comparison to the rest of the article and reads like a reworking of online news material. A lot of this could go out of date quickly, which is why it was removed before. It is clear that there will be a major look at the gun laws in Finland after this incident, but the primary thrust of the article at the moment is to cover the shooting incident. It will be hard to keep this section up to date because of WP:RECENTISM, which is why I suggested shortening the section (ideally so that it is around half the current size) and giving the rest of the information in the external links. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, I still don't think it's necessary. There's no need to be prudent; if and/or when it goes out of date it can be contracted, if and/or when developments occur it can edited. Sometimes the repercussions are larger than the incident itself -- just because information is lacking in one section doesn't mean that another should be shortened. You look at the Virginia Tech article, an FA, and the response section absolutely dwarfs the section on the shooting (there is a sub-article, but it should really be 'see also' rather than 'main article', and a lot of is simply forked from other articles). Yohan euan o4 (talk) 11:16, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
This a situation with a long way to go, so I won't argue too much here. As you say, very long sections are often best forked off into other articles. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 11:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay. Perhaps I'm being bold, perhaps I'm being a little too bold (well indoctrinated here), but it will probably be satisfactory for all in the long-run. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 12:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

misleading picture caption

A Sisu Pasi armoured police vehicle near the scene of the shooting

This caption is (accidentally I'm sure) misleading. What is seen in the picture is a Finnish army APC, known as a "Pasi" and manufactured by Sisu (Patria). It has been fitted with a temporary police sticker. There were military personnel present and they would have brought the APCs. They would not normally be police equipment. Tafkaf (talk) 09:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Fixed by Ianmacm. Thanks, Face 12:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The video

The video is available at BBC. Quite shocking... ☺ Spiby ☻ 13:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

So can people outside the UK view that (BBC videos used to be UK exclusive)? If so, I think it would make a credible external link...and yes, quite shocking -- my initial reaction to seeing it was not "opportunity". Yohan euan o4 (talk) 14:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I had no technical problems, and I live in Finland. (not bbc exclusive, they copied it from youtube.) ☺ Spiby ☻ 15:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
The BBC site videos used to be only viewable in the UK though...I think I'll add it, as it's from a reputable news source (Youtube, for example, wouldn't be a good external link). Yohan euan o4 (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
The BBC website video played fine for me in Canada. Random89 19:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Any other videos on websites that my school hasn't blocked? HA! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.227.31.15 (talk) 19:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Videos hosted on the BBC website may not work for IP addresses outside the United Kingdom for copyright and bandwidth reasons. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 20:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Try Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/sep/23/finnish.shootings. BTW, why is the guy speaking english? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo8rge (talk • contribs) at 06:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no Finnish version of youtube. Presumably if you're as mad as Saari was you're gonna want your video watched by as many people as possible. Did he put it on the us youtube? (Aurumpotestasest (talk) 15:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC))

Screen capture of Youtube page

There's a screen capture of his youtube page taken after the shooting and before deletion. Has several comments hailing him as a hero. Turns out the only user he subscribed to was also suspended. Checked myself.

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.58.2 (talk • contribs) at 06:14, 24 September 2008


Its all over youtube and similar video pages again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.25.72 (talk) 17:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Spree killing or mass murder?

Planned. Not multiple locations. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Mass murder plotted since 2002. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.25.72 (talk) 17:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Coordinates

Please note that the coordinates in this article need fixing as: They're incorrect —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.231.146.140 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

On clicking the coordinates, the first two Finland related services seem to point to the same building as Helsingin Sanomat does with the map in their timeline of events. --Para (talk) 17:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Intro and location is over the top

From current intro:

"at Seinäjoki University of Applied Sciences[7] in Kauhajoki, a city in the region of Southern Ostrobothnia in western Finland."

Why dont you add the street address and class rooms if you gonna be that specific? IMO it would be better if it said: at Seinäjoki University of Applied Sciences[7] in Kauhajoki, Finland, i mean if you compare with Columbine and Virgina tech. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.25.72 (talk) 17:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. However, there are still too many inline citations in the intro section. Some pruning/moving would be beneficial here. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Grammar

"One woman was injured and in a stable condition.[10]" Should be "One woman was injured and is in a stable condition.[10]"

I've changed it to "One woman was injured but in a stable condition", saying that she was injured but it wasn't anything serious. Mozyr (talk) 21:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Jokela school shooting

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/3083996/Finland-school-shooting-Gunman-Matti-Saari-made-phone-call-during-slaughter.html

This websites has information that the Jokela school shooting and this one were connected , i'm not big on editing so anybody who wants to add can.Rump1234 (talk) 07:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

There's also quite a bit on his history and the actual incident in there too. Good find. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 11:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Polish language version of article

pl:Strzelanina w Kauhajoki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.89.185.17 (talk) 19:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Saari's army status and parents

Two things that i haven't seen on the news and appear relevant are wether he had been conscripted, and wether his parents were well off. (not resp. yes , i guess.) 80.57.67.243 (talk) 20:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

A couple of good points here. The article at [5] says: "It was also revealed that Saari had been thrown out of the Finnish Army in 2006 after only a month when he terrified fellow recruits by opening fire against orders in a woodland exercise." Also, the article should give some information about his parents. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Columbine youtube favourite

Anyone got any sources that it was actually on his favourites? I saw the page before it was taken down and i distinctly remember there being no link in his favourites to the columbine massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.173.200 (talk) 05:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I visited his favorites in YouTube before his account was suspended and he did have one Columbine tribute video in his favorites. Sadly i didn't take a screenshot of his account altough i thought about it realizing his account will close in a matter of hours. I can try to find the video he favorited on my browsing history if someones interested. Video removed Feelu (talk) 06:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
This has been mentioned by the media [6]. The mirror of the userpage at [7] gives twelve favourites, but does not seem to have a Columbine video, as only nine are shown.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:09, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Link to a screenshot of his profile page in YouTube http://antville.org/static/spacecat90/files/wumpscut86.html and as you can see, the first video on the favorites titled "The Nobodies" is a tribute video to the Columbine School Massacre featuring clips and pictures from Discovery channels documentary about the event. The song playing in the video is by Marilyn Manson. I watched the video and it was a tribute. Can't find it in youtube anymore. Feelu (talk) 11:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Clicking on The Nobodies will produce the message: This video has been removed due to terms of use violation. Thanks for clearing up this issue. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 11:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The original Marilyn Manson video is still on YouTube. The refrain "We're nobodies ... wanna be somebodies ... we're dead and know just who we are" seems well suited for the purpose. The ending "Some children died the other day/ We fed machines and then we prayed/ Puked up and down in morbid faith/ You should have seen the ratings that day" seems like an apt description of what happens in such incidents. (If you're reading this article, it's too late to say you're better than that...) While it would be nice if we can track down the video with the clippings, really it practically composes itself. Wnt (talk) 14:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Unprotect

Because the attention has somewhat faded, I think we should remove the semi-protection of this article to invite more people to edit it. Are there enough people guarding this article? Cheers, Face 11:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer to wait as long as there is a link to this article on Main page. After that, I am fine with unprotection. --Tone 15:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
That's weird... the log doesn't mention any semi-protection, but I could swear that there was one. Oh well, doesn't matter anymore, the article is unprotected. Cheers, Face 10:18, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Why is this page protected?

Ive tons of info to add but i cant since its protected. Please remove the lock! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.25.72 (talk) 12:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The page's semi-protection serves to prevent vandalism. You can create an account and wait four days to get full editing privileges, or post what you'd like to add, here on the talk page. Someone will add it to the article then. – sgeureka t•c 12:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

You can create an account, but it seems you have a history of vandalism. The semi-protection is to prevent people like you from ruining pages. mozyr (talk) 13:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, it's an IP, so it's not necessarily the vandal making the request. I'll admit that it's ironic however. -- Atamachat 15:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
If you mean what i said on the Swedish SD (Swedish democrats) site, you are correct. A bunch of fanatical neo Stalinists, i bet certain people wouldnt know what was up even if it said put X here if you vote for Stalin! Guess i had to care about their rights too? But Finland is my father land so no vandalism. Quite frankly it sounds a bit outrageous that someone would like to vandalize a heavy topic like this one today. Afterall i contributed with 10% (Take or give) of what it says on the Jokela school shooting page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.25.72 (talk) 17:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
The semi-protection is gone now. If you can improve the article, feel free to do so, but please don't make bad edits like this one. Cheers, Face 10:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"You will die next" video

Article states that Matti Saari posted the "You will die next" video on last Friday, but I'm pretty sure he sent it to rapidshare.com not until the morning before the incident, along with some pictures and other videos. It certainly wasn't in his YouTube account, I saw those videos before the account was closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.182.28 (talk) 19:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Due to the ongoing situation, there has been some confusion about this. There is a mirror of the suspended YouTube channel at [8]. The final video, entitled "Me and my Walther P22 Target", was added five days ago (given in media reports as Friday 19 September). The videos themselves are no longer available. It is reported that this one contained the words "You will die next", but any other comments here are welcome. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 21:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
This is still a confusing situation. The final video, entitled "Me and my Walther P22 Target", can be seen at the mirror site [9], but it does not contain the "You will die next" quote. At a guess, it may have been in one of the other videos and the police were informed about it on Friday 19 September. Can anyone help out here? --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 08:46, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
This video was not in his YouTube account. It contained four videos of him shooting at the range (copy of his account: http://www.riemurasia.net/kauhajoki/youtube.html ). This video was in a zip package posted to rapidshare moments before the shooting (copy of the package: http://www.riemurasia.net/kauhajoki/Massacre_in_Kauhajoki_Matti_Saari.zip ). Someone correct the article. It makes the police who questioned him look more incompetent than they actually are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MooD2 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

An important clarification has occurred in this area. According to The Times at [10], The "You will die next" video was not posted on YouTube, but on another social networking site (was this IRC-Galleria, could someone help out?) Media reports on the day stated or implied that the "You will die next" video came from YouTube, eg [11][12], but this has now emerged as inaccurate. This has the potential to be repeated as an urban legend, so an apology to YouTube for the confusion over this issue. However, the inaccuracy arose during the course of a breaking news story and these things happen. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The rapidshare link mentioned above is here. There is still a worrying gap in the article on the issue of where these files originated. They do not appear to be linked to YouTube, as they are a package of .AVI videos and JPEG images (filesize around 52MB). Can anyone help out on sourcing for the rapidshare files? --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 21:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is an article from Helsingin Sanomat, which states that the policeman who questioned Saari had seen 'at least one video' at YouTube, 'where Saari uses his weapon at a gun range'. Article continues 'Uhkaavimmat videot ampuja julkisti verkossa vasta kuulustelun jälkeen', which translates as 'the most threatening videos were released by the shooter only after the police questioning'. --Ras (talk) 01:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

This one includes a quote from Kauhajoki Police Dept. vice-chief Vesa Nyrhinen. He mentions that the policeman who held the questioning had at least YouTube-videos and some text material from Irc-Galleria written by Saari to base his evaluation on. Threatening photos, where Saari points his gun at the camera, were uploaded after the questioning. --Ras (talk) 01:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

This forum thread includs a quote '23.09.2008 10:15 <Wumpscut> http://rapidshare.com/files/147625012/Massacre_in_Kauhajoki_Matti_Saari.zip' from Saari's Irc-Galleria profile (profile name Wumpscut). It can't be referenced reliably, since Irc-Galleria has closed his account. But it seems that Saari did advertize the Rapidshare package on Irc-Galleria just before he left to do his dirty work. --Ras (talk) 01:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

If you look further into that thread, screencaps from his Irc-Galleria profile were posted there while the assault was still ongoing. Those caps seem to prove, that he released those pictures (cap posted at 11:41 by monni-) and videos at Irc-Galleria - and posted a link to a bigger zip-package at Rapidshare. BTW. That same forum was the first location, where news from Jokela broke out a year ago - and because of that it has gained reputability. --Ras (talk) 01:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the help. As seemed likely, Saari never uploaded the "You will die next" video to YouTube, despite numerous English language media reports saying that he did. In any case, a ZIP file cannot be uploaded to YouTube. The most likely explanation is that Saari uploaded the ZIP package to rapidshare and posted a link to it on IRC-Galleria on the day of the shooting. However, there is still a need for caution here as Saari's accounts are now deleted. It also makes sense that the Finnish police and YouTube would have acted more decisively if they had known about the "You will die next" video before the shooting. The article now reflects this, although there is still a need for some more detail and sourcing on the ZIP file package. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
There is a strange role reversal in the current situation. Wikipedians are often told to respect mainstream media sources as part of WP:V, but some of them are still saying that the "You will die next" video was posted on YouTube (eg here in the Irish Times) although it is now clear that it was not. This was an understandable error in the immediate confusion following the shooting, but things should have settled down by now. There is a risk that the "You will die next" video will become an albatross for YouTube if the story keeps being repeated, but at least it can be said that on this occasion Wikipedia has not lazily repeated inaccurate or damaging information in the article. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
The Guardian reference [13] shows a video that seems hard for anyone to act on. I mean, he shoots and says "you will die next", but that is all he does. It is not clear that a threat to "you" the viewer could be seen as credible by any private company. Certainly I would not want to see police detaining someone for such a video, which is very similar to what you might see done as an anti war protest! I hope the people editing this article keep an eye out for critical discussion about what actually would have been done, rather than the emotional and somewhat self-serving declarations of police after the disaster. Wnt (talk) 14:25, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
A quick update here: clicking on the link http://rapidshare.com/files/147625012/Massacre_in_Kauhajoki_Matti_Saari.zip' now produces the message:

Error

This file is suspected to contain illegal content and has been blocked. After the file has been blocked for 7 days it will automatically be deleted, if the block is not removed by RapidShare. For this reason, a download of this file is currently not possible.

This is the most likely original source of the "You will die next" video, not YouTube as stated in numerous media reports. However, the files contained in this package have been mirrored elsewhere on the web, and can still be viewed. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 12:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

GA nomination

The article needs to look at WP:RECENTISM. For example, the opening section says One woman was injured but is in a stable condition. This may have been true back in September 2008, but may have changed since then. The article needs to be written in a way that can withstand recent changes. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:10, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kauhajoki school shooting/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
    As mentioned above, you need to have a look at WP:RECENTISM. The quote above was a good example, but there are numerous parts in the shooting section such as A photo of them together has been circulating on the Internet. Have a copyeditor do a sweep of the article, either from WP:FINLAND, WP:CRIME or WP:GoCE. There should be no references in the lead, at least for non-controversial statements.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    Some of the references use a different date format for access, eg, 01-01-08 and 1 January 2008.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Gets a bit sidetracked towards the end when discussing the response to the incident. Perhaps cut the unnecessary text on reform and put it into Gun politics of Finland or even Response to Kauhajoki school shooting
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    My only concern is regarding Image:Saari_you_will_die_next.jpg. I'm not too good on image policy, so I'll get a second opinion on whether it meets Fair Use criteria. Resolved, changed to yes. \ / (⁂) 10:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    On hold for now until concerns met. \ / (⁂) 08:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
    Concerns Met. Congratulations! \ / (⁂) 00:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Image:Saari you will die next.jpg

There is little doubt that Saari shot this video himself, and wanted it to be used in the media after his death. It is a key part of media coverage of the incident, and falls within fair use guidelines even if it is copyrighted. On the other GA issues, I agree that there is some degree of forking towards the end, and it might be better to create a separate article looking at the response to the incident. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 10:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I was pretty certain, I just wanted to get a second opinion on the issue. \ / (⁂) 10:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Splitting

You're right, it's a bit redundant, however articles of events of the like usually don't have separate articles regarding the response of the attack, so it should rather be merged in with Gun politics in Finland. Cyanidethistles (talk) {Tim C} 17:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

At the moment it's looking a bit bare. Definitely split the article, whether to Gun Politics or Response to, but maybe add another paragraph to the response section here. On events like these, every man and his dog has an opinion, opinions we shouldn't necessarily care about. I think the response needs to have some opinions, but a lot of details about government regulation, gun laws etc. \ / (⁂) 20:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Re: Recent Improvements

Great work on the improvement! One minor thing,

  • Place am/pm after times. It's probably obvious, but it is explained below WP:DATED.

Other than that, it's looking fine. \ / (⁂) 05:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Alright, great, I fixed the am/pms. Cyanidethistles (talk {Tim C} 23:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Action against police inspector

This was removed from the article due to WP:LINKROT on the citation: "However, a police inspector was subsequently charged with dereliction of duty, and his court case began in September 2009."[14]. It could be added again if another citation is found.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:04, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

@Prolog: Thanks for fixing this, I could not get any luck with the search feature on the YLE site. I was worried about the WP:V issue, so removed the information and asked for help.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:48, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

No problem. The new URL popped up on Google, though hidden under non-working links. Thanks, Prolog (talk) 19:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Photos of the victims and shooter

There's a photo of the shooter posing with his gun but no photos of the victims anywhere. And people wonder why they do this kind of crap. KevinLuna (talk) 01:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with KevinLuna, the photos aren't needed and are disrespectful for the victims. At least the second one. I will remove them, if some oppose this please say why. 91.96.13.195 (talk) 22:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)roede

This is covered by WP:NOTCENSORED. By the same logic, Virginia Tech massacre, Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting etc should remove images of the shooter. These images have appeared widely in media coverage and are relevant to an article about the case.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:23, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

mental health status

SSRI Stories #3979 : On September 23, 2008, at Kauhajoki in Finland, a 22 year old culinary student named Matti Saari shot and killed ten students before killing himself. The official report on the shooting has been released by the Finnish Ministry and on page 58 of that report [PDF file] it states that Matti Saari was taking an SSRI medicinal product and also a benzodiazepine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.208.120.4 (talk) 08:31, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Classroom at the beginning

In the article it says: "According to the three students who were able to escape the exam room (there were roughly 20 students taking the exam)" Later it says: "Nine of the victims were found in the exam room, and one in a nearby corridor"

unless there is something i have misunderstood roughly 7 students missing (20 in classroom, 3 escaping, 10 died) anyone have some more info? 13 is not even close to 20. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joha4270 (talk • contribs) 17:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


It sounds like 3 escaped the room and death, 1 escaped the room but did not escape death, 7 in the room escaped death, 9 in the room did not escape death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.208.120.4 (talk) 08:37, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

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