Talk:Kelsang Gyatso/Archive 3

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Character and lifestyle[edit]

Hey folks, just a side-note that the article ends rather abruptly with the phrase "His lifestyle and character [72]." You might want to fix that. :-) Best, --Iheartmanjushri (talk) 20:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I find the bottom section on character reads like a Press release and sounds like a mea culpa. I think it is denigrating to have to state exactly how he lives as a monk should. Why is it neccesary to include this at all? I think you should seriously consider deleting it as it seems "he doth protest too much." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.106.117 (talk) 21:18, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

A lot of the unsourced info has since been removed and new, sourced info found. Hopefully, this section reads a lot better now. I would personally appreciate discussing (beforehand) the removal of info that is cited by third-party, independent sources that have no connection to the subject. Emptymountains (talk) 15:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The burden is not on those who remove it, but rather on those who can prove its inclusion to Wikipedia. Removal of unverifiable or controversial material, especially of living persons requires no prior "beforehand" discussion whatsoever. Bold, revert, discuss is a decent way of looking at it, I think... Doc9871 (talk) 15:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
What "material added to Wikipedia [that] has already been published by a reliable source" is unverifiable? I was of course talking about verifiable, non-controversial material that is removed repeatedly with the claim that it is self-published and non-independent. Emptymountains (talk) 15:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Mitsube, what's wrong with the Waterhouse quote? I know you said it's "gushing," but how is it much different in nature from the Spanswick quote, which you yourself put back? Emptymountains (talk) 12:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, saying it's "undue weight" is a better explanation than "gushing," but having another reference besides Spanswick actually helps to show that it's not undue weight, no? If yet a third source is found, does it become even more "undue"? Emptymountains (talk) 07:52, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
It is not encyclopedic to extol a living person's virtues as perceived by his disciples. Mitsube (talk) 08:07, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
I hope this is suitable: [1]. I thought it easier to just show you what I had in mind rather than try to describe it here. Emptymountains (talk) 08:27, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Per Mitsube, it's pointless to have a section in GWB with a stack of endorsements from his wife, Rove, Cheney etc etc YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I have renamed the "Character and Lifestyle" section to "Retirement," focusing on GKG no longer being the Spiritual Director of the NKT-IKBU, and what his actitivities are since then. The 'character' material has been worked into the other relevant sections of the article (e.g., his journey to the west, and his teachings). Emptymountains (talk) 00:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Modern Buddhism: The Path of Wisdom and Compassion[edit]

Modern Buddhism: The Path of Wisdom and Compassion is already out. Perhaps someone with more time than I have might want to update this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raymm (talkcontribs) 00:07, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Query concerning dates[edit]

The article currently says that Kelsang Gyatso left the monastery at Buxa for Mussoorie when separate monasteries were established in South India. All sources place the date for this event as 1971-1972. The article currently says Geshe taught and engaged in intensive meditation retreat at Mussoorie for 18 years. But the article then goes on to say that in 1976 Geshe was invited by Lama Thubten Yeshe to his centre in Cumbria. Something doesn't add up here - this leaves a gap of only 4-5 years - not 18. Either Geshe left Buxa much earlier than stated or he spent only about 4 years teaching and meditating at Mussoorie. Can someone provide verifiable sources for the correct dates. Otherwise I'll have to remove the part about 18 years. Chris Fynn (talk) 08:52, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

To solve this apparent discrepancy, I changed "18 years" to "several years". Chris Fynn (talk) 18:15, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Gelug[edit]

Truthsayer, i didn't remove "Gelug" in front of "teacher", because he isn't Gelug, of course he is, but because 1)it is mentioned twice in the same sentence. and 2)the word Gelug alone doesn't mean much to the uninformed reader without saying the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism. Also: You might as well put the Gelug in front of "Buddhist monk" then as well. Maybe you have a better solution? Andi 3ö (talk) 08:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to see at first that it's redundant, but it is. This way, he is a "monk of the Gelug school," a "teacher of the Gelug school," a "scholar of the Gelug school," etc. Might I suggest adding translator, since the 22nd book is merely a translation, not a commentary. Also, he has translated dozens of sadhanas. Emptymountains (talk) 09:37, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I thought about it again: maybe there is another reason why i intuitively didn't like it there. Saying he is a "Gelug teacher" may imply that he is not only trained in the Gelugpa tradition and not only teaches Gelug teachings, but also is still associated with the Gelugpa "establishment/mainstream", which he isn't (see NKT article). He also doesn't teach in Gelug centres other than NKT afaik, so saying he is a Gelug teacher might be misleading in that regard. Any suggestions? Andi 3ö (talk) 09:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I added "or New Kadampa" to show that it is synonymous with "Gelug," and so people can make the connection that way. Emptymountains (talk) 09:37, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
EM, you know (or should know) that a synonym of 'Gelug' is indeed 'New Kadampa', but neither of them are synonymous with the 'New Kadampa Tradition', which KG is the head of. It is pretty disingenuous to conflate these terms, especially as the Gelug is a Tibetan tradition, whereas the NKT/IKBU is not: "The NKT is a Mahayana Buddhist tradition with historical connections with Tibet, rather than a Tibetan tradition". This is noted as a point of fact, not as any objection to the edit. (20040302 (talk) 13:23, 12 March 2010 (UTC))
I went back and re-read the sentence in the article, and I think it reads correctly, i.e. his books are indeed "based on the teachings of the Gelug, or New Kadampa, school of Tibetan Buddhism." There's no conflating going on there.
(I, myself, personally object to labels such as "Tibetan Buddhism" or "Japanese Buddhism." Buddha himself never used these terms but rather Hinayana/Shravakayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism. I noticed in the movie Words of My Perfect Teacher that Khyentse Norbu, a Bhutanese lama, never says Tibetan Buddhism or Bhutanese Buddhism, but rather Varjayana Buddhism. I think it's time to let go of the strong associations--probably created by Western scholars in the late 19th / early 20th century--between certain schools of Buddhism and a particular cultures/ethnicities... not very "universal" if you ask me.)
Emptymountains (talk) 16:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
It is very disturbing that someone editing this encyclopedia actually believes that the (historical) Buddha used the terms "Hinayana/Shravakayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana". Mitsube (talk) 08:04, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
I guess it depends on if you're a Mahayanist or not... Emptymountains (talk) 08:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Since there is no verifiable proof of this, such statements really shouldn't be included. Chris Fynn (talk) 08:58, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Re: The term "Tibetan Buddhism" - whatever its merits and demerits, this is the most widely used and understood term, so best to leave it. You can't really substitute "Vajarayana Buddhism" for "Tibetan Buddhism" because the Buddhism of Tibet contains the three yanas (Shravakayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana) - not just Vajrayana. Chris Fynn (talk) 18:41, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Place of Birth[edit]

The Life and education in Tibet section currently states that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was born in Yangcho Tang, eastern Tibet. However I've read elsewhere that he was born in western Tibet, southern Tibet, or in Tsang province (south west Tibet). The latter makes sense as he was at Tsangpa Khangtsen ("Tsang House") while at Sera Je. Does anybody have a reliable reference for Geshe Kelsang's place of birth? Geo co-ordinates? Chris Fynn (talk) 04:39, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Photo at top of article[edit]

I was wondering about adding a picture of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso at the top of the page. Does anyone have a suitable image (i.e. one that doesn't infringe copyright)?

Kjangdom (talk) 18:11, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps one of his student's could contribute a good quality picture they took of their teacher to Wikimedia Commons. 07:04, 7 July 2014 (UTC)