Talk:Kingdom of Breifne

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Breifne as derived from pre-Celtic substrate

Mac Eoin's cited paper does not support the strong claims in the text regarding a pre-Celtic etymology and meaning for Breifne:

recent advances in language studies indicate that the name is derived from the pre-Celtic substrate language spoken in Ireland before the arrival of the Celts and means "Ring" or "Loop".[1] Breifne would therefore have one of the oldest placenames in Ireland, dating from prior to 500 BC.

In fact, Mac Eoin lists two separate items: a common noun 'bréife (var. bréifne)', and the placename 'Bréifne (varr. Breithne, Breibne)'. These are two separate items, included in two distinct lists, each with different variants, and Mac Eoin offers the gloss 'ring, loop' only for the common noun, not the placename. And of the common nouns (including 'bréife') he says they are 'poorly attested... and they suffer the corruption which unfamiliar words without context are prone to'. So you have to supply two unsupported assumptions to get from these careful observations to the claim that this 'indicates' that the placename Bréifne 'means "Ring" or "Loop"'.

And even if there were any grounds for linking the two words, there is no justification for describing the paper as 'an advance' which 'indicates' that the name is derived from the pre-Celtic language of Ireland. Mac Eoin is studiously, explicitly and repeatedly cautious on this point: 'It is true to say that Irish has not yet been reliably shown to contain any word, placename, personal name, or syntactic construction which has been convincingly credited to the language which preceded it in Ireland' (p. 119); 'It may be that some of these phenomena will in future turn out to be explicable under the rules as we at present know them or as they may then be interpreted or totally changed, but that is the way research has to go' (ibid.); 'I do not wish to advance any theory to explain [these words] at this stage, but merely wish to present them as a strand in the discussion of the possible pre-Irish language of Ireland' (p. 122); and the final sentence says just that 'I have presented a list of words containing intervocalic -f-, both nouns and placenames, where the -f- can hardly be derived from a lenited *sw, with the question ‘What are they?’ (p. 123).

So the strongest claim that could be made within the article would be something like 'Bréifne is one of a small number of Irish words containing an internal /f/ whose derivation is not readily explained by known rules of Celtic-era sound change, as Mac Eoin points out in a discussion of evidence for the nature of the pre-Celtic language of Ireland'. To me that hardly seems worth saying, so I'm taking it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.244.120 (talk) 15:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Missing chief Fergal Og O Ruairc - Battle of Clontaff and Patron of Clonmacnoise

Annals of Clonmacnoise mention him in 1014: “The O'Neals forsooke King Bryan in this battle [of Clontarf], and so did all Connought, except Fferrall O’Royrck and Teige O'Kelly, Prince of Imaine.”

O'Donovan published the "Elergy of Erard Mac Coise, Chief Chronicler of the Gaels, pronounced over the tomb of Fergal O'Ruairc, Chief og Brefney, At Clonmacnoise."

Starting Bronch ollamh deir a righ, Farior nach bhfuilim fo 'n bhfeart! Mise ar masthain beir Ui Ruairc! Mairg, a Chriost, bo smuain an breath!

Mournfull is the Ollav after his King. Alas, that I am not in the grave! That I should survive O'Ruairc, O Christ, is a cruel destiny!

However O'Donovan want to dismiss the existence of this second Fergal O'Rourke. However his existance resolves an issue with the neighboring kingdom of Teffia.

Annals of the Four Masters 962.13 “Maidhm an Bhealaigh re f-Ferghal h-ua Ruairc for Feraibh Tethbha, du i t-torchair Domhnall mac Muirecáin" The victory of Bealach was gained by Fearghal Ua Ruairc over the men of Tethbha, where Domhnall son of Muireagan, was slain.

Yet Domhnall son of Muireagan appears in poem by MacLiacc, for Tadg Mor O Ceallaigh who was king from 986 to his death at the battle of Clontarf in 1014. line reads: “Scíath rígh Teabhtha seo ‘na dáil co beathra Cláir Midhe múaid, Domnall mac Muireagán menn, ropo duinecán teand tuaid.”

It seems the Four Masters where unaware of the this second Fergal and placed the death Domhnall mac Muireagan in reign of Fergal Sean O'Rourke. However the poems have Domhnall mac Muireagan (killed by Fergal O Ruairc per teh material of Four Masters) an ally of Tadg Mor O Ceallaigh, who in turn was with Fergal O Ruairc at battle of Clontarf in 1014 per the Annals of Clonmacnoise and so in the elegry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.191.240.247 (talk) 20:36, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Royal Court of Breifne

Some people are running a pretend monarchy with the same name. See http://royalcourtofbreifne.com/ Eastmain (talk • contribs) 19:56, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]