Talk:L&YR Class 2 (Aspinall)

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LY&R 4-4-0 articles renaming

I have copied and extended a table and associated from a split discussion at Talk:L&YR Class 3 and wish to given acknowledgement to Redrose64 for excellent work ... Columns past "Rush" are mine:Djm-leighpark (talk) 14:08, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The LYR does not seem to have had a logical classification system for locomotives. The scheme introduced by Hughes in 1919/20 uses broad descriptions: for the 4-4-0 classes of Barton Wright and Aspinall, Hughes divided these into three groups - Class 2: 6ft 0in; Class 3: 7ft 3in; Class 4: 7ft 3in superheated. It also was not retrospective, since it does not cover those classes which had become extinct before 1919, so we cannot be certain if the 4-4-0s built in the 1880-85 period (none of which survived later than 1909) would have been included in Class 2 or not. Various authors of LYR loco history use different classifications as follows:"

Baxter	Mason	Marshall	Rush	Hughes class	Current articles	Redirects
629 class	Wright's 4-4-0 (6' 0") Passenger Tender Engines	6ft 0in 4-4-0 Passenger Engines / Barton Wright 4-4-0 Passenger Engines	J1? & J2	N/A? (or 2 of 110)	L&YR Barton Wright 4-4-0 L&YR Class 2
978 class	Aspinall's 6' 0" 4-4-0 Tender Engines	Beyer Peacock 6ft 0in 4-4-0 Passenger Engines	J3	2	L&YR Class 2 (Aspinall)
1093 class	Aspinall's 4-4-0 Tender Engines (7' 3" Wheels)	7ft 3in 4-4-0 Passenger Engines	J4 (J5 when superheated)	3 (4 superheated)	L&YR Class 3	L&YR Class 4
1220 class	Aspinall's 4-4-0 Tender Engines (7' 3" Wheels)	7ft 3in 4-4-0 Passenger Engines	J4 (J5 when superheated)	3 (4 superheated)	L&YR Class 3	L&YR Class 4

The R.W. Rush classifications were entirely unofficial, being devised by him as a convenient reference system for his book, in the same way that he did for his book on the Furness Railway. Despite this, the Rush system was also used by some other authors, including H.C. Casserley.

Of those classified 3 and 4 by Hughes, all 40 were built saturated so all would have been placed in class 3 if the classification had existed at that time; since none were built with superheaters, class 4 consisted entirely of rebuilds. There were only a small number of these - one was superheated in 1908, four in 1909 and a final one in 1914. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:49, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My first concern is the article L&YR Class 2. It covers last 36 from the Vulcan Foundry of the 110 usually assigned to Barton Wright as part of the 629 class. Of the 36 the last 16 were ordered and delivered by Aspinall in 1887 and had different wheelbase. Of those 16 only 2 made it to the 1919 classification and survived into 1930. Thus I'd argue L&YR Class 2 is primarily the Aspinall 6.0 Beyer Peacock (Peacocks .. Looking at Pictures the styling and manufacturer name could contributed to the nickname). I tried to extend that article to cover more of the Barton Wright but I just ran into more and more issues. I then wrote L&YR Barton Wright 4-4-0 which flowed a lot easier. (I'm happy to change the name to any consensus I don't strongly object to. Djm-leighpark (talk) 14:08, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of article naming WP:COMMONNAME applies I think) L&YR I think people would probably go for a guideline such as (nothing should work either way):

If an article consists of 2 of more combined types the article should usually be named after the earliest with other types having printworthy redirects with categories
If there is a reasonable commmon name alias for a type that should be a printworthy redirect without categories
If there is a solid Hughes Classification for a type that should be used in the form: L&YR Class Hughes Class
Otherwise:
Option 1: LY&R Baxter number classnumber ( I assume baxter number is class lead)

Option 2: L&YR CME or equiv. or builder Whyte tyke or description

Notes: Also need possibly need redirects for locomotives LYR electric units#A-eLoco, LYR electric units#A-beShunter and LNWR Newton Class#A-LYR

Specific WP:BOLD proposal for the L&YR 4-4-0s (Basic idea is L&YR Beyer Peacocks are going to L&YR Class 2 and previous L&YR Class 2 article to be retained as a redirect with history):

Keep L&YR Class 3 on current name
Keep L&YR Class 4 as redirect with categories
Either:
Keep L&YR Barton Wright 4-4-0 as is and move L&YR Class 2 to L&YR 629 class and change to a printworthy redirect with history but no categories

Move L&YR Barton Wright 4-4-0 to L&YR 629 class not leaving redirect and L&YR Class 2 to L&YR Barton Wright 4-4-0 as printworthy redirect with history but no categories
Move L&YR Class 2 (Aspinall) to L&YR Class 2 without leaving redirect.

There will be a little tidyup to do after this. Djm-leighpark (talk) 14:08, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your contributions of expertise user:Djm-leighpark. I agree that these pre-grouping 4-4-0s can be extremely confusing. I would repeat (for want of sounding like a broken record) that (1) it's generally massively better to split than lump. Tony May (talk) 16:09, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I today have temporary access to: Lane, Barry C. (2010). Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Locomotives. Pendragon. ISBN 9781899816170. He uses various method to refer to locomotive classes. I interpret his divisions of the LY&R 4-4-0s as:

Barton Wright 6ft 4-4-0s (inconsistenty does not use '639' class) :: Covered pages pp=40-46 (Stewarts pp=40/41; Neilson pp=42/43; Kitson p=45; Vulcan p=46. The last 16 ordered by Aspinall from VF had smaller 3' 0 bogie wheels and quite a few other changes but treated effectively as the same on the same page as the earlier Vulcan batch
'978' Class/Aspinall 6ft 4-4-0 Tender Engines/Hughes Class 2/Aspinall 6ft 4-4-0 "Peacocks" :: pp=50/54
'1093' Class/Aspinall 7ft 3in Tender Engines/Hughes Class 3/Aspinall 7ft 3in 4-4-0 "Flyers" :: Covered in continuous section pp=76-81 with rebuilds described as ('1093' class rebuilds/Hughes Class 4)

I find Lane's designations somewhat in alignment with my proposals (correction: It is the 7' 3" flyers that have significant styling changes .. The Beyers look more like Barton Wright's at first glance) .Djm-leighpark (talk) 22:35, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Of a slightly related note relating to the common abbreviation to Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway" I have observed while our article titles and infoboxes tends to (mostly) use L&YR a straw poll of some pages in some literature I am reading including Bulleid, Marshall, Cox use LYR though Mason (1953) uses L&YR.Djm-leighpark (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FYI

– Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:L&YR Class 2#Merge proposal. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]