Talk:Lilias Armstrong/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Works which Armstrong did not write, but which she provided some sort of assistance

These don't belong in the article's Works section, but at some point they might be useful in the section talking about her academic / research career.

I have enjoyed the valuable assistance of Prof. Daniel Jones and Miss Lilias E. Armstrong, B. A., of the Phonetics Department, University College. Miss Armstrong has also kindly undertaken to read the proofs of the phonetic part of this book for which I here beg to express my sincere thanks.

— Immanuel Björkhagen, Modern Swedish Grammar (Stockholm: P. A. Norstedt & Söners, 1923.) Page 5. (Google Books Snippet)

[Added. Umimmak (talk) 12:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)]

Our thanks are due to
Miss L. E. Armstrong, for examples of Ganda and Kikuyu.

— Diedrich Westermann & Ida C. Ward, Practical Phonetics for Students of African Languages (London: Oxford University Press, 1933.) Page ix.

It seems in the first edition of this book, there were sections written by Armstrong about the phonetics of Luganda and Kikuyu, but in subsequent printings the phonetic summary have been removed. "Since the publication of this book in 1933, more extensive and more accurate information on most of the languages dealt with has appeared; the phonetic summaries included in the first edition have therefore been omitted from this reprint." (p. ix of the 1966 Impression). When someone gets a hold of the 1933 edition, they should determine if this is something Armstrong wrote herself or just something she helped give information for.[Added. Umimmak (talk) 01:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)]

The pronunciation represented here is that of the author himself analysed under the guidance of Miss Armstrong and Miss Ward, and finally checked by Prof. D. Jones.

— Banarsi Das Jain, A Phonology of Panjābī: As Spoken about Ludhiana, and A Ludhiānī Phonetic Reader (Lahore: University of the Panjab, 1934) Page 155. Google Books Snippet

We have to thank Miss L. A. Armstrong for much help in connexion with the correcting of the proofs of this book.

— M. V. Trofimov & Daniel Jones, The Pronunciation of Russian (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1923) Page vi. Google Books Preview

[Added. Umimmak (talk) 12:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)]

Umimmak (talk) 12:32, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

The Jones obituary wrote "⁴ði aːtikl in m.f. eiprəl 1930, p. 38 wəz laːdʒli həː wəːk.", but this article doesn't have Armstrong as an author, nor does it mention her anywhere. The sole author listed is Bien-ming Chiu; no other name is mentioned. So if this was "largely her work" as Jones claims, it's odd she's not mentioned.... (Bieng Ming Chiu was a lecturer in Chinese at SOS 1930–31 [source].)

Umimmak (talk) 17:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Leads on possible sources

These are sources I haven't yet read myself, but I'm providing as much of the citation information as I have been able to figure out in the hopes that in the future some other Wikipedia Editor might be able to figure out the full citation information or locate a copy.

  • An obituary titled "Miss Lilias Armstrong" in the journal Moderna Språk Vol 38 (1938) Page 22(-?) [Added. Umimmak (talk) 20:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)]
  • An obituary: E. Zwirner. (1938) "Miss Lilias Armstrong (Nachruf)" Archiv für vergleichende Phonetik 2:62–63. [Refs to Zwirner 1938:1 2 3] [Added. Pretty much verbatim from Times, though with only minor changes. Umimmak (talk) 20:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)]
  • A death notice in The Crown Colonist, Volume 8 (1938) pg. 122 [???] Google Books Snippet[Added. Was able to get enough from Google Snippet.]

* A death notice in The Universities Review (1937? p. 147?). "Miss+Lilias+E.+Armstrong" Google Books Snippet Possibly an announcement of her readership in an earlier volume[Added! Umimmak (talk) 10:58, 18 April 2017 (UTC)]

  • An entry in Biographical dictionary of the phonetic sciences / edited by Arthur J. Bronstein, Lawrence J. Raphael, Cj Stevens. (1977), mentioned in Abercrombie (1978) doi:10.1075/hl.5.3.13abe[Added. Umimmak (talk) 01:29, 16 April 2017 (UTC)]
  • R. E. Asher, ‘Armstrong, Lilias Eveline (1882–1937)’, The encyclopedia of language and linguistics, ed. R. E. Asher (1994), 1.221–2 [Unclear if there would be any information there not present in Asher 2015/2004][Added. Umimmak (talk) 22:20, 9 May 2017 (UTC)]
  • Something in Overseas education : Google Books Snippet (book review for Armstrong 1940?)

Papers mentioned: here and here:

  • Armstrong, L. E. (July–September 1933). "The Technique of Speech". Good Speech. 3. London: 2–5.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)
  • Armstrong, L. E. (July–September 1937). "Speech and the Phonetician". Good Speech. 7. London: 32–36.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)

Information on another vacation course[Added! Umimmak (talk) 10:58, 18 April 2017 (UTC)]

Umimmak (talk) 07:26, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Photograph of Armstrong

As per Joe Decker adding |needs-photo=yes, I added a photograph. I'm not sure I did it right with respect to licencing and free use, but hopefully it works!

Umimmak (talk) 15:21, 18 April 2017‎ (UTC)

Burmese transcription images

Burmese transcriptions from (1) Armstrong & Pe Maung Tin 1925, (2) Firth 1933, and (3) Watkins 2001.

This is what I had before, but the multiple image template doesn't allow scaling like a regular thumbnail does. But the old version of the image box had three images.

Umimmak (talk) 05:06, 5 May 2017‎ (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Lilias Armstrong/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sagecandor (talk · contribs) 01:44, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


This one, for review, I shall take. Sagecandor (talk) 01:44, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Great, thanks! Umimmak (talk) 02:12, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Successful good article nomination

I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of June 11, 2017, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: So the writing overall is quite good. The lede is a little bit short, but it functions adequately as an intro to the rest of the article's content in the main body text. For good article, it's okay. For the future, I'd recommend expanding the intro so the reader can just read the intro and come away with a good summary of the entire article without reading the rest. The structural organization and layout is excellent. Great table of contents and very helpful for the reader to either read the page all in one sitting, and/or come back to it and navigate it later for future reference. There are a couple of longer quotes and a blockquote that can be removed which would improve the stylistic presentation of the article, but this can be done later.
2. Verifiable?: Very very very good citation style. In-line citations provided for every statement in the article. Further, great job on the layout of the references sections. These include notes and references, explanatory footnotes, citations, and references. I would recommend having them each be a level-two header and getting rid of the parent header. And changing "explanatory footnotes" to just "fotnotes".
3. Broad in coverage?: Yes, of course this article is very thorough, giving the reader a nice intro, though as stated above that could be expanded upon a bit more, and an overview of the subject's life, and her career as well.
4. Neutral point of view?: The article is written in a neutral tone and passes NPOV, all statements and assertions are backed up by plenty of references and are quoted at times to be in the voice of the source itself.
5. Stable? Talk page used mostly for notes by the writer. No edit-warring to speak of for at least a few months.
6. Images?: All the images hosted on Wikimedia Commons have appropriate licensing on their image pages. There is one fair use image, the image of the subject herself in the infobox. It is a pity not to have a free-use image of her.

Quite lovely to see such a high quality article about a woman scientist. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to have it Good article reassessed. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.— Sagecandor (talk) 16:31, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Removed text box on 1919 summer course

Copied here for posterity; removed as per the GA1 comments.

Advertisement for the 1919 vacation course.
"A summer vacation course for students and teachers of French will be held at University College from August 6 to August 9 inclusive. It will include : (1) Six lectures on French phonetics, by Daniel Jones (University Reader in Phonetics.) (2) Six lectures on methods of language learning (with special reference to French), by Harold E. Palmer. (3) Daily ear-training exercises, conducted by Miss L. E. Armstrong. (4) Daily practical classes—(a) pronunciation exercises, (b) fluency practice, conducted by M. G. Bonnard, Mdlle. H. Coustenoble, Mdlle. M. L. Favry. Mdlle. A. F. Gérard, Mdlle. M. Grémaud, Mdlle. B. Héritier, and other assistants. Write to the Secretary, University College London, W.C. 1."

Spelling of Middlesb(o)rough

The quotation uses the spelling "Middlesborough", which can also be seen elsewhere in source from the late 20th century, e.g., [1] ("Southend, Middlesborough"), and plenty of articles in The Times (to pick just one: "State of Trade" April 7 1888, pg 14, issue 32354 "MIDDLESBOROUGH, April 6.—[...] [C]ontinued excellent shipments of iron at Middlesborough have stiffened quotations").

It seems like this is just a spelling variant that was present in the late 19th century. This seems very different from the sorts of issues that MOS:PMC mentions like obvious typos like spelling "harassment" with three Ss. MOS:PMC also says "In direct quotations, retain dialectal and archaic spellings", which this seems to be based on the number of contemporary sources spelling it the same way.

To "correct" it to "Middlesbrough", as 213.205.198.175 has done, without comment seems like original research since that is making a claim that at that time only the spelling with one O was considered correct and the spelling with two Os was "a trivial spelling error". It's more neutral to quote the source as written. Umimmak (talk) 04:06, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

P.S., I tried tagging you but it didn't work since you're an IP address so I reverted to get your attention, sorry about that. Umimmak (talk) 04:43, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Good points well made, thank you. Having read that I agree entirely - leave as is. And thanks also re the tagging/revert - absolutely fine, nice of you to be so polite to a simple humble IP address! Cheers 213.205.251.223 (talk) 12:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC) (yes it's still me, or me again, rather)

Material excised from article during FA nomination, moved here for posterity.

[1]

References

  1. ^ Sources disagree as to the name of the school or schools she taught at, how long she taught, and what her positions were:
    • Teachers' Registration Council Registers. "Experience: Assistant Mistress—[3 illegible words: seven, six, and seven characters long, respectively] School, East Ham, 1906–1910; Senior Assistant Mistress—Higher Elementary School, East Ham, 1910–1918."
    • Jones, Daniel (1932). Foreword. The Phonetics of French: A Practical Handbook. By Armstrong, Lilias E. London: Bell. p. iii. Moreover, she had seven years' experience as a teacher of French in schools before she was appointed to her present post at University College, London (which she has held since 1918).
    • The Times 11 Dec. 1937, p. 19. "After graduating at Leeds she started her career as a teacher of French and was senior assistant at the Higher Elementary School, East Ham, from 1906 to 1918. During the latter part of that period she studied phonetics with the object of improving her teaching of spoken French. Eventually it became evident that phonetics itself was her true vocation, and she was appointed to the staff of the Department of Phonetics, University College, London, in 1918."
    • Andrzejewski 1993–1994, p. 47. "She was trained as a teacher at Leeds University, obtaining a B.A. degree there in 1906, and between 1910 and 1918 she taught at the East Ham Central School in London, where she was highly regarded and was expected to be appointed headmistress."
    • Asher 1994, p. 221. "Before then she had a successful career as a secondary school teacher of French and had reached the position of senior mistress at East Cheam Central School in Essex."
    • Collins & Mees 1999, p. 194. "At the time when, in her mid-thirties, she first attended Jones's Department as a part-time student, she held the post of senior mistress at East Ham Central School in metropolitan Essex. She had been highly successful in her career as a teacher and was widely tipped for promotion to headmistress."
    • Asher 2015. "Her first appointment after graduation was as a teacher of French at the higher elementary school, East Ham, London. She was senior mistress there when she left in 1918 for University College, London, to become full-time assistant to Daniel Jones (1881–1967) in the department of phonetics. In making this move, after having been fired with enthusiasm for phonetics through attending evening classes in the subject at University College, Armstrong left a secure position, from which she could without doubt have expected to acquire a post as headmistress, for a temporary appointment with a lower salary."

She went to infant school in Middlesbrough, North Yorkshire, but by 1889, she and her family were living in Louth, Lincolnshire and Lilias and four of her siblings had registered to attend Newmarket Council School.[1]

References

  1. ^ "Newmarket Council School, Louth", National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870–1914, n.d. [Date of Admission: 9 September 1889], Admission Number: 264 (See also #261–263, 265) – via Findmypast, Address: 18 Lee St Louth; […] Last School: Southend Bd. Middlesborough. Highest Standard there presented: Inf; In what Class at Admission: I.

Umimmak (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2017‎

She attended the University of Leeds Day Training College and got a Board of Education Certificate.[1] [...] Armstrong became lecturer in 1920,[2]

References

  1. ^ "Boyanus, Lilias Eveline (née Armstrong)", Teachers' Registration Council Registers 1914–1948, n.d. [Date of Registration: 1 July 1916], Register Number: 17497 – via Findmypast, Attainments: B.A., Leeds. Board of Education Certificate. Training in Teaching: University of Leeds Day Training College.
  2. ^ Teachers' Registration Council Registers. "Experience: […] Assistant in Department of Phonetics—University College, W.C.1., 1918–1920; Lecturer in Department of Phonetics—University College, W.C.1., 1920–1921; Senior Lecturer in Department of Phonetics—University College, W.C.1., 1921–."

Umimmak (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2017‎

Emsley, Bert; Thomas, Charles K.; Sifritt, Claude (1954). "Phonetics and Pronunciation". In Wallace, Karl R. (ed.). History of Speech Education in America. New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts. pp. 339, 343.

Umimmak (talk) 00:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

(2) i desid kə l aksɑ̃ d fɔrs səra dezɔrmɛ rəprezɑ̃te par yn liɲ vɛrtikal ˈ də preferɑːs a la liɲ ɔblik ɑ̃plwaje ʒyska prezɑ̃; e kə ˌ səra ɑ̃plwaje pur rəprezɑ̃te l aksɑ̃ zgɔ̃dɛːr. (puːr 11, kɔ̃ːtr 2, nɔ̃ vɔ̃tɑ̃ 3.) [...] (5) i desid də rɑ̃plase le siɲ ꜰ, ʋ par ɸ, β. lə siɲ ʋ səra dezɔrmɛ dispɔniblə pur rəprezɑ̃te la kɔ̃sɔn labjo-dɑ̃tal nɔ̃-frikatiːv tɛl k ɛl egzistə dɑ̃ sɛrtɛn lɑ̃ːg ɛ̃djɛn e ɑ̃ hɔlɑ̃dɛ. (puːr 12, kɔ̃ːtr 2, nɔ̃ vɔtɑ̃ 2.)

— Passy, 1927. P. 14

ʋ for "bi-labial v", the middle and South German sound of w, the Ewe sound in ʋu (boat), ʋɔ (python), which words have to be distinguished from vu (to tear), vɔ (to be finished)

— IIALC 1927, pp. 4–5

While the object of the book is to study especially the tune of French, that tune is often compared with the one used in similar circumstances in English; so that the book becomes almost a comparative study of French and English intonation.

— Hedgecock 1934–1935, p. 164

Umimmak (talk) 01:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

"Anachronistic" locations

@Phinn: Re [2]: Would you be happy with statements like "... in the London suburb East Ham" or "in Pendlebury, a town near Manchester"? Readers know where London and Manchester are so they are useful points of reference; simply removing them just leaves the reader with less information. Umimmak (talk) 01:23, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Although East Ham was in Essex at the time, "the London suburb of East Ham" would be fine but since it's already mentioned that Pendlebury is in Lancashire I think added "a town near Manchester" would simply be extraneous. Phinn (talk) 01:31, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
@Phinn: That assumes the reader knows where Lancashire is, though. Plenty of people are more familiar with the city of Manchester than the county Lancashire -- especially its historic boundaries. Honestly I think it's confusing to mention Lancashire at all in the article due to the change in county boundaries. Umimmak (talk) 02:01, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
I would disagree that many more people would know where Manchester is but not Lancashire, in any case that's what the wikilinks to the relevant entries are for. As for historic boundaries being confusing, Greater Manchester and Greater London did not exist at the time so it would be incorrect to list them; see MOS:PN Phinn (talk) 02:15, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
@Phinn: I'm no longer suggesting adding back Greater London or Greater Manchester; I'm just saying that "Pendlebury, Lancashire" is potentially more confusing the reader than "Pendlebury, a town near Manchester". Without further clarification it makes it seem like Pendlebury is still in Lancashire. Maybe "Pendlebury, at the time in Lancashire" or something like that would work. Umimmak (talk) 17:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
As I said, if someone is unfamiliar with either place name then they can click on the wikilink to find out more. I sincerely doubt that more people would be familiar with the location of Manchester but not Lancashire. Phinn (talk) 23:39, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
But that doesn't address the issue at hand, namely that Pendlebury is no longer in Lancashire, but saying "Pendlebury, Lancashire" suggests that. (Also why wouldn't people be more familiar with the fifth largest city in England than a random administrative region?) Also, by your logic, people can simply click on Pendlebury to know where it is, so why bother mentioning the county it was once in? Umimmak (talk) 02:14, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

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Archiving PDF

Regarding http://www.ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/Fulltext/philippson/these.pdf

There is something unusual about this PDF that's preventing it from being correctly archived by archive.org and archive.is .. it appears to redirect to a Google Cache URL, and both archive services then reject it. WebCite was able to archive it. -- GreenC 16:28, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Image

An image of Armstrong and Jones at the 1919 summer course can be found here.

I think the photo currently used in the article is fine, but in case a second photo is thought necessary I thought I’d mention it in the talk page for posterity. Umimmak (talk) 10:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

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